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  1. #21

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    I remember Maxim Staviiskiy during some competitions, when they start talking about BK, prised very high there Riverdance.
    I never talked about BK must win OG, but bronze must be there.
    As for difficulty of BK programs. Riverdance had more steps, then any other FD in that season.
    Just it was different FD style, when all others used overdramatic piece of choreo. But steps difficulty was over the top.
    BK, when they start competed at senior level, was the fresh air. And its sad, that after they didn't get medals, they want to get, they try more traditional, old-fashioned things.
    They brought a lot off new elements in ice dance.
    As for Spanish OD. I know, all teams did great job, but I only want to say, that.BK try to do this OD in different way.
    As for swing OD. Maybe you are right. I was impressed with all top 3 ODs,but I think BK skating skills wasn't so bad to lay them on 7 or 8 place.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    I remember Maxim Staviiskiy during some competitions, when they start talking about BK, prised very high there Riverdance.
    I never talked about BK must win OG, but bronze must be there.
    As for difficulty of BK programs. Riverdance had more steps, then any other FD in that season.
    Just it was different FD style, when all others used overdramatic piece of choreo. But steps difficulty was over the top.
    BK, when they start competed at senior level, was the fresh air. And its sad, that after they didn't get medals, they want to get, they try more traditional, old-fashioned things.
    They brought a lot off new elements in ice dance.
    As for Spanish OD. I know, all teams did great job, but I only want to say, that.BK try to do this OD in different way.
    As for swing OD. Maybe you are right. I was impressed with all top 3 ODs,but I think BK skating skills wasn't so bad to lay them on 7 or 8 place.
    You can do all the steps you want but if they're performed side by side or hand to hand (like they did in Riverdance or their atrocious OD that year), it simply does not count as difficult. Not to mention they made numerous errors in the golden waltz CD. I can't believe they managed to place 5th there as they should've been even lower with those errors. However, fourth place for their awful OD was even more outrageous.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Anissina & Peizerat gold easily, 1st in all portions, although I hate their FD and enjoyed many others more
    Drobiazko & Vanagas silver- 3rd in CDs, 3rd in OD, 2nd in FD
    Lobacheva & Averbuhk bronze- 8th in CDs, 2nd in OD, 3rd in FD
    Bourne & Kraatz 4th- 6th in CDs, 4th in OD, 4th in FD
    Denkova & Stayviski 5th- 4th in CDs, 7th in OD, 5th in FD
    Fusar Poli & Margalio 6th- 2nd in CDs, 5th in OD, 7th in FD
    Navka & Kostomarov 7th- 5th in CDs, 6th in OD, 6th in FD
    Lang & Tschernaysaev- 7th in CDs, 8th in OD, 8th in FD

    Lobacheva & Averbuhk 2nd in the CD, Fusar Poli & Margalio 3rd in the FD, and Drobiazko & Vanagas only 5th in the FD were all ROTFL moments.
    judgejudy27, just curious why you put N/K and L/T in 7th and 8th. Not that I'd complain - I love L/T's programs, I just thought the difficulty of their programs that year was watered down compared to their usual content. Everyone seems to think L/T should've been in the place they received (I thought 10th is more like it).

    I agree with your top assessments, though I'd do the following (personal opinion):
    5) C/S
    6) D/S
    7) FP/M
    8) G/G
    9) W/L
    10) L/T
    11) D/L
    12) N/K

  4. #24
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    Well we already have a big difference in opinion on a couple things as personally I thought Chait & Shaknovsky were always an awful team (they were actually much improved by 2004-2006 when they were still getting much poorer results being judged correctly) and should have been nowhere near the top 10 in the SLC field, and yet you have them higher than their actual finish of 6th. Keep in mind how the skating World reacted to their medal at the 02 Worlds when 2 higher teams from SLC were out (not that I base my own opinions on that, but my feelings of their skating at the time seem to be echoed by many).

    I had Navka & Kostomarov really high as their lines and edges and speed were already excellent I thought, and in that field they stood out somewhat just for that, even if their content was quite lacking. Their compulsories were also very good.

    L&T did lack content in their LP for sure, but they also had great qualities relative to much of the bottom half top 10 teams when it came to quality, line, unision, ease of movement, and very enjoyable programs, and very well executed footwork and elements (even with the open holds and easiness). Their compulsories were also outstanding and ridiculously undermarked. Lobacheva & Averbukh who finished 9 places above had absolutely horrendous compulsories in SLC and much worse than L&T.




    That is of course the fascinating thing about ice dancing. So many different opinions people have. Bourne & Kraatz are one of those, they would probably win a most overrated team on this forum, or only lose out to a team like Fusar Poli, yet they also come higher than teams like Krylova & Ovsiannikov and Usova & Zhulin in positive voting polls. For them it is either extreme fandom or extreme they were so cheesy, overrated, and whiny, and I am one of the few somewhere in between on them. Either way what constitues fair or correct judging and what should have been results are drastically different for alot of people, some people are infuriated a team finished as high as someone else is infuriated they werent much higher then, and vice versa, so how can we even define if the judging was really well done or not, LOL! The fascination of the 6.0 dance era.


    The things everyone seems to agree on regarding SLC though are:

    -Anissina & Peizerat were the clear and undisputed winners and it would have been an absolute scandal had anyone else (especialy Lobacheva & Averbuhk as they so nearly did) won gold over them.

    -Lobacheva & Averbuhk should have been nowhere near 2nd in the compulsories and thus had no hope of the gold medal right from the start.

    -Drobiazko & Vanagas were probably hard done by the judging in finishing 5th again.

    -Fusar Poli was way overmarked in the OD and even more the FD, and did not deserve a medal.

    -Denkova & Stayviski were slightly undermarked for being an up and coming team. Possibly some others too, but the others are where the opinions start to wildly vary.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 05-17-2013 at 09:55 PM.

  5. #25

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    I, now I feel happy I didn't.spend so many time in internet in that time. I didn't know BK was hating so much, I had impression people liked them. So I was wrong. But still like this team and think they were unremarked several times.
    And maybe I am only one, who was upset with KO retirement, because this made ice dance competitions level low and because I think LA are one of the worst.ice dance teams from Russia, but they were from Russia so judges need.to give them silver at OG.

  6. #26
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    I agree LA were extremely overrated and one of the worst teams to ever achieve results like World Champion, Olympic silver, European Champion, etc....That was the era of some of the most overrated teams ever IMO with Lobacheva & Averbuhk, Fusar Poli & Margalio, and Chait & Shaknovsky all inside the top 6 at once.

    I also really liked B&K's OD in 2002 and agree with what was said that it was completely original. Anissina & Peizerat and Lobacheva & Averbuhk had excellent ODs that year, especialy A&P, but they were more traditional, and B&K were very daring to use the music and theme they did, especialy knowing some wouldnt like it. Unfortunately their Olympic OD performance was not their best, and nowhere near most of their performances to it that year. At the Worlds they skated it much better and there were undermarked in the OD I thought, especialy when L&A didnt skate their as well as SLC, and D&V stumbled in theirs.

    B&K are definitely a polarizing team though. Most cases you either really love them or really dont get them at all. I am one of the only ones I know of who is in the middle on them.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I agree LA were extremely overrated and one of the worst teams to ever achieve results like World Champion, Olympic silver, European Champion, etc....That was the era of some of the most overrated teams ever IMO with Lobacheva & Averbuhk, Fusar Poli & Margalio, and Chait & Shaknovsky all inside the top 6 at once.
    I agree with this too. I never understood why people liked Lobacheva/Averbukh so much. Everything about them seemed sort of underwhelming. Their choreography, interpretation (especially when they tried to do American rock n' roll in both 1998 and 2003), music choices, and content just didn't seem that impressive. I know underwhelming is a funny word with someone like Averbukh hamming it up, but it always seemed too forced for me to buy into. Although I did like their 2002 OD quite a lot. I think they suffer when you compare them to the Russian teams that came before them and Navka/Kostomorov who came after them.

    I just think it's sort of funny how after Krylova/Ovysiannikov were forced to retire, Lobacheva/Averbukh seemed sort of rushed into gold medal contention just in time for Salt Lake City. I mean I know they were probably some of the better ones that cycle, but it just seemed suspicious to me. But then, one could see a million miles away that Navka/Kostomorov were groomed for 2006 gold after their 10th place ranking in SLC, and in Torino, it was sort of obvious the same thing was going to happen for Domnina/Shabalin even though IJS, his severe injuries, and the quick progression of Virtue/Moir and Davis/White put a wrench in those plans. Their bronze might as well been gold though since that in itself was a miracle feat, IMO.

    I also really liked B&K's OD in 2002 and agree with what was said that it was completely original. Anissina & Peizerat and Lobacheva & Averbuhk had excellent ODs that year, especialy A&P, but they were more traditional, and B&K were very daring to use the music and theme they did, especialy knowing some wouldnt like it. Unfortunately their Olympic OD performance was not their best, and nowhere near most of their performances to it that year. At the Worlds they skated it much better and there were undermarked in the OD I thought, especialy when L&A didnt skate their as well as SLC, and D&V stumbled in theirs.
    That I can't really agree with. Even at Worlds, I found their ice coverage to be severely lacking, and they really seemed slow throughout the dance. Also, I love Chicago and the Cell Block Tango, and maybe it would've been an interesting choice/interpretation, but there was just something off about their interpretation and performance to me. It seemed too tongue-in-cheek and cutesy. I sort of didn't get what they were going for with the choreography.

    B&K are definitely a polarizing team though. Most cases you either really love them or really dont get them at all. I am one of the only ones I know of who is in the middle on them.
    I don't hate them as much as many on FSU here, and I actually think there were times I thought they were underrated. Like the 2001 Worlds OD, I don't really know why they scored 4th in that portion (but then I don't know how Fusar-Poli/Margaglio scored first either). And I admit that out of all the FDs by the top teams in 2002, Bourne/Kraatz had probably the best or at least one of the best ones that season, even though I think Anissina/Peizerat are just a superior team all-around and should have easily been in first in every portion of the Olympic competition.

  8. #28
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    Some seem to forget that in 99/00 (the season when Krylova & Ovsyannikov retired), Lobacheva and Averbukh weren't given anything: they were 4th at GPF, Euros and Worlds. L&A had better programs the following year and improved their results by getting bronze at Worlds - Bourne & Kraatz blew it in the OD where they had mistakes. In 2002, L&A surprised a lot of people by showing themselves better than they ever did before. Their OD in 02 was a highlight and, as far as I remember, some thought it was material good enough to top Anissina and Peizerat in that section of the competition. L&A also had their best ever FD in 02. Some may not like it but it was a good effort from them with some bits of originality. Bourne & Kraatz unfortunately blew it in the OG and I think they, as well as the italians, should had finish behind the lithuanians.
    It's been 10 years already and it still "hurts" to remember that Drobiazko & Vanagas finished out of the podium in the OG in 02.

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    Regardless there was no possible justification for Lobacheva & Averbuhk to place 2nd in the compulsories at SLC. Their compulsories were absolutely terrible and by far the worst of the top 5, and worse than many teams who werent in the top 5. That they did place 2nd in the compulsories when nothing about their previous results would indicate it, nor their actual performance, already indicated the fix was in to help them at that event.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaiKozOda View Post
    Some seem to forget that in 99/00 (the season when Krylova & Ovsyannikov retired), Lobacheva and Averbukh weren't given anything: they were 4th at GPF, Euros and Worlds. L&A had better programs the following year and improved their results by getting bronze at Worlds - Bourne & Kraatz blew it in the OD where they had mistakes. In 2002, L&A surprised a lot of people by showing themselves better than they ever did before. Their OD in 02 was a highlight and, as far as I remember, some thought it was material good enough to top Anissina and Peizerat in that section of the competition. L&A also had their best ever FD in 02. Some may not like it but it was a good effort from them with some bits of originality. Bourne & Kraatz unfortunately blew it in the OG and I think they, as well as the italians, should had finish behind the lithuanians.
    Thank you, IMO this board and this thread can be too hard on L&A. I am not talking about people disagreeing with their CD placement in SLC, that's fine, but with the notion that L&A were just moved to the top just because K&O retired. They managed 5th in 1998 - with G&P and K&O still in the picture, they were considered better than FP&M, D&V, etc. With G&P and K&O's retirement, they would've been "ranked" 3rd by SLC anyway, so the only team they passed in those years was B&K.

    Now you can argue that L&A's 5th place in 1998 was not deserved and political, but I will note that it was better than K&F's ranking as the third Russian couple in 1994, and better than the second Russian couples did in 2002, 2006, and 2010, therefore, IMO not entirely attributable to politics.

    L&A didn't have a meteoric rise whatsoever. They lost bronze in 1999 to B&K who had mistakes, and remained in 4th in 2000 behind FP&M and D&V, two teams that had plenty of technical issues of their own. In fact, even if L&A had gotten silver in 2000, that wouldn't be a meteoric rise, because K&O and B&K didn't skate there. So they were actually dumped (I'm not even saying I disagree with their placement, just saying I don't see that they were the beneficiaries of Russian politics). They did eventually pass FP&M and D&V at the right time, but that's hardly the huge push that people are implying here.

    N&K and DomShabs give much more of an impression of being pushed to the top, because they were barely in the top 10 and then went on to medal at the next Olympics. But there are arguments on their side as well, such as some people feel that they were actually held down as the number 2 Russians and then their placements were more deserved once they became the top Russians.

    IMO N&K are not better than L&A either. Navka is better than Lobacheva, and I get that people would prefer N&K because they focus on the woman, and I'm usually like that too. But Averbukh was much better than Kostomarov, L&A were more equally matched and overall I think better than N&K. At least L&A skated their programs through without stopping and posing constantly (they did a little in 2003 but they didn't abuse it like N&K often did). L&A had much better ODs, they were always very strong whatever the rhythm. N&K did an outstanding job with a couple of their ODs, especially blues, but a lot of the others were quite average. L&A's FD in 2003 had some issues but it was extremely well received at Euros in Malmo, and they had some very exciting lifts and tricks in addition to great speed (I think it was too open though).... it wasn't worse than N&K's Pink Panther in 2004, which for me was the worst FD in modern times to win a worlds until this year. It was so cheesy and full of posing and N&K's lifts throughout their career always had the same feel (her flexibility and snaking her body around him)... I preferred their more serious efforts but there's a long list of superior Toscas and Carmens (K&P and K&O had very moving gala performances to Tosca and the Carmens are innumerable). I will give N&K the CDs but I would put L&A's best ODs and FDs against N&K's, no problem.

    I would pretty much say Russian dance has been going down the tubes since around 2000. With P&G, B&B, K&P, and G&P I don't necessarily see a clear way to rank them; they're all great in different ways. But I would say L&A were better than N&K who were better than DomShabs who were better than B&S are... and I can see I&K going down as worst ever with Morozov's help.

    Sorry for the long rant. One more interesting thought... we all seem to be in agreement that A&P were by some way the best in SLC. I agree. But this is probably the only time (other than Harding) where we had at least a little evidence of a skater being involved in cheating In that sense they are getting a huge pass, and had it been a different team in 2nd they might have caught hell. L&A were very gracious, and never demanded a second gold medal; in fact I think Averbukh said he was ok with the result, except that losing on a 5/4 split hurts. L&A's attitude generally seemed to be to work harder rather than complaining. They had considered skating for Israel in the mid-90s due to the depth in Russia, but they ultimately clawed their way up in Russia. They changed FDs four times in 2000 (a terrible idea!), they tried to move from Linichuk to TAT who wouldn't take them, and they did improve their programs by 2002. They didn't participate in the petition against C&S either.

    No doubt they turned a lot of people off with some of their crazy raggy costumes which epitomized the bad taste of that era, and her legline really detracted from their performances, but as their fan it bothers me to see people completely writing off their career as just being a team that the Russian federation stuck in K&O's place. I see them as hard workers who were not the Russian federation's pets at all, otherwise they would've made TAT take them and they would have been on the podium in 2000 and won the 2001 Worlds which was a poor field.

    BTW, I am not saying that they never benefited from politics... the top team from such a big federation always will. Just saying they had their good qualities too, and I feel it's unfair that they are always branded the worst Russian couple with the most egregious results.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaiKozOda View Post
    Some seem to forget that in 99/00 (the season when Krylova & Ovsyannikov retired), Lobacheva and Averbukh weren't given anything: they were 4th at GPF, Euros and Worlds. L&A had better programs the following year and improved their results by getting bronze at Worlds - Bourne & Kraatz blew it in the OD where they had mistakes. In 2002, L&A surprised a lot of people by showing themselves better than they ever did before. Their OD in 02 was a highlight and, as far as I remember, some thought it was material good enough to top Anissina and Peizerat in that section of the competition. L&A also had their best ever FD in 02. Some may not like it but it was a good effort from them with some bits of originality. Bourne & Kraatz unfortunately blew it in the OG and I think they, as well as the italians, should had finish behind the lithuanians.
    It's been 10 years already and it still "hurts" to remember that Drobiazko & Vanagas finished out of the podium in the OG in 02.
    I liked L/A's 2002 FD. It was the only one of theirs I really liked. The 2003 one was dreadful, especially the costumes and the others were just ok.

  12. #32
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    Tracy Wilson loved Drobiazko & Vanagas. She had her way they would have been the 2000 World Champions (or atleast silver behind French), 2001 silver or bronze medalists, 2002 Olympic silver medalists, and 2002 World Champs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    Thank you, IMO this board and this thread can be too hard on L&A. I am not talking about people disagreeing with their CD placement in SLC, that's fine, but with the notion that L&A were just moved to the top just because K&O retired. They managed 5th in 1998 - with G&P and K&O still in the picture, they were considered better than FP&M, D&V, etc. With G&P and K&O's retirement, they would've been "ranked" 3rd by SLC anyway, so the only team they passed in those years was B&K.

    Now you can argue that L&A's 5th place in 1998 was not deserved and political, but I will note that it was better than K&F's ranking as the third Russian couple in 1994, and better than the second Russian couples did in 2002, 2006, and 2010, therefore, IMO not entirely attributable to politics.

    L&A didn't have a meteoric rise whatsoever. They lost bronze in 1999 to B&K who had mistakes, and remained in 4th in 2000 behind FP&M and D&V, two teams that had plenty of technical issues of their own. In fact, even if L&A had gotten silver in 2000, that wouldn't be a meteoric rise, because K&O and B&K didn't skate there. So they were actually dumped (I'm not even saying I disagree with their placement, just saying I don't see that they were the beneficiaries of Russian politics). They did eventually pass FP&M and D&V at the right time, but that's hardly the huge push that people are implying here.

    N&K and DomShabs give much more of an impression of being pushed to the top, because they were barely in the top 10 and then went on to medal at the next Olympics. But there are arguments on their side as well, such as some people feel that they were actually held down as the number 2 Russians and then their placements were more deserved once they became the top Russians.

    IMO N&K are not better than L&A either. Navka is better than Lobacheva, and I get that people would prefer N&K because they focus on the woman, and I'm usually like that too. But Averbukh was much better than Kostomarov, L&A were more equally matched and overall I think better than N&K. At least L&A skated their programs through without stopping and posing constantly (they did a little in 2003 but they didn't abuse it like N&K often did). L&A had much better ODs, they were always very strong whatever the rhythm. N&K did an outstanding job with a couple of their ODs, especially blues, but a lot of the others were quite average. L&A's FD in 2003 had some issues but it was extremely well received at Euros in Malmo, and they had some very exciting lifts and tricks in addition to great speed (I think it was too open though).... it wasn't worse than N&K's Pink Panther in 2004, which for me was the worst FD in modern times to win a worlds until this year. It was so cheesy and full of posing and N&K's lifts throughout their career always had the same feel (her flexibility and snaking her body around him)... I preferred their more serious efforts but there's a long list of superior Toscas and Carmens (K&P and K&O had very moving gala performances to Tosca and the Carmens are innumerable). I will give N&K the CDs but I would put L&A's best ODs and FDs against N&K's, no problem.

    I would pretty much say Russian dance has been going down the tubes since around 2000. With P&G, B&B, K&P, and G&P I don't necessarily see a clear way to rank them; they're all great in different ways. But I would say L&A were better than N&K who were better than DomShabs who were better than B&S are... and I can see I&K going down as worst ever with Morozov's help.

    Sorry for the long rant. One more interesting thought... we all seem to be in agreement that A&P were by some way the best in SLC. I agree. But this is probably the only time (other than Harding) where we had at least a little evidence of a skater being involved in cheating In that sense they are getting a huge pass, and had it been a different team in 2nd they might have caught hell. L&A were very gracious, and never demanded a second gold medal; in fact I think Averbukh said he was ok with the result, except that losing on a 5/4 split hurts. L&A's attitude generally seemed to be to work harder rather than complaining. They had considered skating for Israel in the mid-90s due to the depth in Russia, but they ultimately clawed their way up in Russia. They changed FDs four times in 2000 (a terrible idea!), they tried to move from Linichuk to TAT who wouldn't take them, and they did improve their programs by 2002. They didn't participate in the petition against C&S either.

    No doubt they turned a lot of people off with some of their crazy raggy costumes which epitomized the bad taste of that era, and her legline really detracted from their performances, but as their fan it bothers me to see people completely writing off their career as just being a team that the Russian federation stuck in K&O's place. I see them as hard workers who were not the Russian federation's pets at all, otherwise they would've made TAT take them and they would have been on the podium in 2000 and won the 2001 Worlds which was a poor field.

    BTW, I am not saying that they never benefited from politics... the top team from such a big federation always will. Just saying they had their good qualities too, and I feel it's unfair that they are always branded the worst Russian couple with the most egregious results.
    L&A may not have been held up by judges as much as people potray, but they certainly were more helped by kind and generous judging than teams like Drobiazko & Vanagas, Anissina & Peizerat, and even Bourne & Kraatz. They definitely werent the most held up team of that era though. That would be teams like the Italians, Israelits, and the pretty but not very talented Germans (Winker & Lorways I think).

    I think the big problem people have with SLC is not that L&A medalled. With how the Italians and Bourne & Kraatz skated at that event there shouldnt be any question about them medalling. Only the Lithunians of teams who finished below can be reaosnably argued to deserve to be ahead. The big complaint is their being in contention for the gold, and almost winning the gold in the end. They did not deserve that at all. As others have said their compulsories should have already had them way out of any chance of contending for gold.

    Also alot of what you say also shows why people are so suspicious in a way. You basically showed they were seen as a team that had already peaked and were stagnant and even losing ground in 2000-2001, and being passed by teams, and were seen as way behind the French and Italians, and before 2000 way behind Bourne & Kraatz too. Yet suddenly in the 2002 Olympics and the rest of their career they are right at top always fighting for 1st out of nowhere. It is fishy.

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