View Poll Results: Do multiple falls/mistakes in a program show that a skater can handle pressure?

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  1. #101
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    Kozuka looks down at the ice while he skates. He has no performance and to some extent even interpretation skills at all which hurt his PCS.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    The only active (?) skater among the men who's really handled pressure well for most of his career is Plushenko.
    Agreed.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    That's your opinion. I don't think Chan is a "vastly superior performer". But his program had helped to bring out the best of him and made his performance magnetic and bright. Kezuka is a great skater with a cat-like soft touch in skating. He is probably the best in skating skills among all the top Japanese skaters. But he's no competitor to Chan in this department. Moreover, I'm beginning to question Kozuka's musicality after these last a few years.
    Obviously that's my opinion, and what you wrote is your opinion. As VIETgrlTerifa notes, it's all subjective, and this is an exchange of opinions (mine's right, of course ). But regardless of whether Kozuka's style works for someone or not, I think arguing that he essentially ignores the music and is far behind on skating skills compared to Chan is taking it too far.

    POTO couldn't bring the best out of anyone; the music cut was that hideous. Even truly great performers could not have saved it. Going to Jeffrey Buttle for choreo is what's brought out the best in Chan. And I think we can all agree on this: Buttle is a very promising choreographer and should be getting more work.

  4. #104
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    Probably true re Plush handling pressure the best over his career out of all currently active male skaters, but then these guys today are asked to do stuff that would seriously fell athletes in most other sports. I'm not kidding.

    Other guys who handle/ handled pressure well:

    Yags; Robin Cousins; Toller too but the judges were blind to his genius; John Curry at the ultimate event/ moment; Brian Boitano at the ultimate event/ moment and a not bad pro career in winning under pressure; Paul Wylie had a rep as being very nervous in competition, but he was eerily calm and amazing performance-wise under '92 Olympic pressure, and fortunate to be there too; Kurt Browning, except for the Olympic pressure-cooker; Scott Hamilton rocked under pressure except for at the 1984 Olympics; Todd Eldredge tended to land like a cat under pressure, and he always maintained his composure; Elvis definitely was not a wimp; Evan Lysacek has been known for keeping it pretty much together under competition pressure; Rudy Galindo 1996 U.S. Nationals and Worlds; of the younger crew, Jason Brown has been amazingly consistent to date and Joshua Farris seems pretty cool too, as does Nathan Chen.

    And the reigning U.S. champion, Max Aaron, has recently been performing like Iron Man when it comes to competitive pressure. I doubt too many skaters could shake off starting an event and overcoming someone's music snafu (U.S. Nationals sp), not to mention withstanding hitting the boards during his lp Worlds debut and just bouncing off like nothing had happened and finishing with a very strong showing in 8th place!


    Quote Originally Posted by karlon View Post
    And in recent men's field, i think hanyu yuzuru have also strong mentality...
    The Little Prince, Yuzuru Hanyu, is extraordinarily gifted, but to me he hasn't yet proven that he's all that strong mentally or physically.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    but I do think some times people say subtlety when it comes to things that are almost non-existent.
    So true. Subtlety does exist. But sometimes it could be expanded by the feelings and interpretations of the viewers. I definitely do not like exaggerations in performances. However, a performer has to make himself/herself understood instead of relying on viewer's own imaginations. Besides, He doesn't really care about music when it comes to the time to execute elements, jumps and/or spins. And his elements were sometimes placed at somewhere it has little to do with the music. They are not somethings that could be explained by subtlety.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Obviously that's my opinion, and what you wrote is your opinion. As VIETgrlTerifa notes, it's all subjective, and this is an exchange of opinions (mine's right, of course ). But regardless of whether Kozuka's style works for someone or not, I think arguing that he essentially ignores the music and is far behind on skating skills compared to Chan is taking it too far.

    POTO couldn't bring the best out of anyone; the music cut was that hideous. Even truly great performers could not have saved it. Going to Jeffrey Buttle for choreo is what's brought out the best in Chan. And I think we can all agree on this: Buttle is a very promising choreographer and should be getting more work.
    I don't think it goes too far by calling him out on ignoring music. I often feel that Kozuka is overrated by fans in music interpretation and skating skills.

    I do agree that Buttle was great in helping Chan on artistic exploration. So I have no objection on Chan keeping his SP.
    Last edited by Eyre; 05-25-2013 at 05:49 AM.

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    And the reigning U.S. champion, Max Aaron, has recently been performing like Iron Man when it comes to competitive pressure. I doubt too many skaters could shake off starting an event and overcoming someone's music snafu (U.S. Nationals sp), not to mention withstanding hitting the boards during his lp Worlds debut and just bouncing off like nothing had happened and finishing with a very strong showing in 8th place!
    And Iron Man also describes his musical and artistic range.

    The Little Prince, Yuzuru Hanyu, is extraordinarily gifted, but to me he hasn't yet proven that he's all that strong mentally or physically.
    He didn't deal with the pressure of this Worlds very well. I think the judges were otherwise ready to give him the title - they gave a clear signal at GPF that Hanyu could beat Chan.

  7. #107

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    R: Chan: I have shown I can handle pressure by twice defending the world title

    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    He didn't deal with the pressure of this Worlds very well. I think the judges were otherwise ready to give him the title - they gave a clear signal at GPF that Hanyu could beat Chan.

    Once again, he was injured and resumed training a couple of days before Worlds. Resumed means that he was doing skating skills and double jumps, and he had been off the ice for a month. Considering he ended up 4th in this condition, with the highest technical score in the free skate, I'd say there are much better cases to be made about his inability to withstand pressure (Skate America for example). And he's still much younger and much less experienced than all of his main competitors in the 'top men' field.
    I'm thinking really hard right now but to be honest of the current top men I don't think there is a consistant one. I find them more or less on the same level in that regard. Plushenko, as someone has pointed out, is an exception and not a standard (same as Yuna in the ladies).

  8. #108
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    As much as his skating is meh Lysacek also stands far above all the current men in consistency (in his prime). I think he would still lose to most of them if he returned even as his old uber consistent self as his skills are so outdated at this point, but his consistency once upon a time was still what all the current top men could only dream of.

  9. #109
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    No, only while skating with snakes can one handle real pressure.

  10. #110
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    ^^ Snakes!? Must they now also try channeling Samuel L. Jackson while attempting the physically impossible?

    FWIW, I bet none of the guys can master the pressure of skating with hoops, quite like Nicole Bobek has accomplished.


    Re Japanfan's and mathil's posts: The judges were indeed showing Hanyu early last season the uber-love they tend to reserve for Patrick Chan. Hanyu is quite brilliant and mesmerizing to watch when he's on his game (especially when he hits those gorgeous quads -- his air position when technically perfect is so sweet, glorious, beautiful)!

    Yet, however talented and whatever great presentation potential Hanyu exhibits, IMO, he's still a bit immature in terms of expressive and interpretive range, not to mention his problems with endurance (likely due mostly to his difficulties with asthma). His countrymen, Kozuka and Dai, may not possess Hanyu's level of technical brilliance but I think Dai especially is a more complete skater than Hanyu at present. In fact, Hanyu's sp music/ choreo/ concept last season surely owes a debt to the artistic mastery of Dai Takahashi so effin' effortlessly and magically on display in his 2011-2012 season programs (as beautifully choreographed by Pasquale Camerlengo).


    Quote Originally Posted by mathil View Post
    ... I'd say there are much better cases to be made about his inability to withstand pressure (Skate America for example). And he's still much younger and much less experienced than all of his main competitors in the 'top men' field.
    Yes, exactly my point re Hanyu's youth and lack of experience which come into play under moments of pressure. I think his biggest hurdle may be learning how to pace himself, particularly with his asthma. Brian Orser is hopefully having a positive influence on Hanyu in that and other respects.

    The judges have definitely been generous to Hanyu, even when he's come up short at some of his competitions, so they will definitely continue to reward him, particularly when he's on form.


    Quote Originally Posted by mathil View Post
    ... to be honest of the current top men I don't think there is a consistant one. I find them more or less on the same level in that regard. Plushenko, as someone has pointed out, is an exception and not a standard (same as Yuna in the ladies).
    Supports my contention that men skaters today are being asked to do the near impossible on a consistent basis. Over the course of a season, the mental and physical toll is huge.

    Dai had consistency problems this past season (I think related to physical more than mental difficulties, and also Morozov did not wave any magic wands with his involvement on Dai's team). However, over the course of his career, Dai has usually been very good under pressure. If not always technically consistent, he's sure seemed to weather pressure and stay upright more than Patrick Chan.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    As much as his skating is meh Lysacek also stands far above all the current men in consistency (in his prime). I think he would still lose to most of them if he returned even as his old uber consistent self as his skills are so outdated at this point, but his consistency once upon a time was still what all the current top men could only dream of.
    if it mean only 'lysacek was very consistent skater', I agree. but i think it can not prove that they could hadle pressure well than other top skaters.
    he had not quad. In that way, In ladies, Miki Ando was so consistent skater when she had not 3-3. I think they were so consistent because they had not difficult technical element that almost all top skaters have, So I think it can not prove that they could hadle pressure well than other top skaters.
    Last edited by karlon; 05-26-2013 at 10:41 AM.

  12. #112
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    ^^ I see karlon has in part beat me to the post re one of my below reflections on Lysacek.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    As much as his skating is meh Lysacek also stands far above all the current men in consistency (in his prime). I think he would still lose to most of them if he returned even as his old uber consistent self as his skills are so outdated at this point, but his consistency once upon a time was still what all the current top men could only dream of.
    Yes, I included Lysacek on my short list in an earlier post. His career does demonstrate fierce desire and determination. He did have some bad comps with some sloppy stumbling particularly in his early seasons as a senior (at 2008 Nats, his uncharacteristically bad showing in the fp was probably due mostly to injury -- yet famously he still won and then had to forego attending Worlds). ETA: Lysacek also had dreadful technique on his 3-axel, but he managed to limit that problem as an obstacle to success.

    Lysacek's success was also due to good fortune in his coach along with political favor that certainly didn't hurt. And lest caseyedwards start blowing the same horn, we can maybe head that off by agreeing Lysacek was not under the enormous pressure guys today face of having to consistently perform quads (thanks partly to ol' Lysacek himself winning 2010 Olympics w/o any and Plushy's macho ire, which Patrick Chan heeded placing himself forevermore in the judges' good graces).
    Last edited by aftershocks; 05-25-2013 at 06:48 PM.

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Dai had consistency problems this past season (I think related to physical more than mental difficulties, and also Morozov did not wave any magic wands with his involvement on Dai's team). However, over the course of his career, Dai has usually been very good under pressure. If not always technically consistent, he's sure seemed to weather pressure and stay upright more than Patrick Chan.
    I'd say Dai has pretty much been rather inconsistent throughout the course of his entire career. Of course, it has been a long and illustrious career, punctuated by some brilliant and perfect moments. I agree that he's weathered the pressure well in terms of remaining high up in the ranks - compared, for example, to Joubert, whose fallen from #1 to #18. But weathering doesn't mean the same thing as mastering, and he's fallen aplenty. Not the same consistency as a Plush, a Lysacek, or a Stoijko.

  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    As much as his skating is meh Lysacek also stands far above all the current men in consistency (in his prime). I think he would still lose to most of them if he returned even as his old uber consistent self as his skills are so outdated at this point, but his consistency once upon a time was still what all the current top men could only dream of.
    I agree, though I'd still have him behind Plushenko in this respect. And until Lysacek actually comes back an skates in an actual competition, I'm not going to consider him an active skater But he is absolutely someone who has achieved a lot in his career because of his consistency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    I'd say Dai has pretty much been rather inconsistent throughout the course of his entire career. Of course, it has been a long and illustrious career, punctuated by some brilliant and perfect moments. I agree that he's weathered the pressure well in terms of remaining high up in the ranks - compared, for example, to Joubert, whose fallen from #1 to #18. But weathering doesn't mean the same thing as mastering, and he's fallen aplenty. Not the same consistency as a Plush, a Lysacek, or a Stoijko.
    Joubert's currently ranked 12th, not 18th, and his drop in the rankings in recent years has more to do with missing GPs with illness and injury (he's had WDs every season since winning Worlds) than with skating poorly under pressure. For much of his career, he was a very consistent skater - his medals streak at Euros tied an event record, and he medalled at 5 consecutive Worlds. I'd say Joubert's competitive record stacks up pretty favorably compared with most of his contemporaries, including Takahashi - whose achievements, IMO, are not quite commensurate with his talent (obviously, the ACL injury did not help matters). Dai's like the opposite of Lysacek: moments of true brilliance but a lot of let downs and disappointments as well. Chan is closer to Dai than to Plushenko/Lysacek in terms of consistency, though the results don't always show it. Joubert would be somewhere in between.

  15. #115
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    It's interesting that someone would hold up Plushenko or Lysacek as models of consistency. I suspect that pressure is less during seasons when you skip Europeans and Worlds. Plushenko was remarkable from 2003-2006 and remains a tough character, but he has been absent from so many competitions from 2007-2013 that it seems unfounded to label him consistent beyond the reach of others. The same goes for Lysacek. He was absent or imperfect at many big competitions between 2007 and 2013. My point is Joubert--whom you cite as inconsistent--has been at everything since 2002. Although he is objectively less consistent, he has put himself out under the pressure more often than these two supposedly unflappable characters.

  16. #116
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    ^^ Who said though that Lysacek and Plush are completely unflappable? Of the two, I think it's obvious that Plushy has achieved more under pressure conditions over the course of his long career. When it comes to doing the jumps under pressure, Plushy and Yags both have been pretty special. Lysacek's coach and political edge, especially on the national scene, held Lysacek in good stead, which doesn't mean he was always perfect, nor did he have consistent quads in his arsenal (but he did land a quad when it counted big at 2007 U.S. Nationals).

    Joubert is a decent example of a skater who skated some great performances under pressure, but he also had significant poor performances, some of which were more related to physical problems I suppose.

    I kinda wish Lysacek had landed a quad at 2010 Vancouver to limit half the endless arguments, shut caseyedwards down on the subject, and maybe to also have kept Plushy from helping create the present quad requirement furor/ necessity re his macho = quad bellyaching.

    ETA:

    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    I'd say Dai has pretty much been rather inconsistent throughout the course of his entire career...
    Hmmm, "pretty much rather" is very shaky phrasing. Sure Dai is not a perfect model of consistency, but when healthy he has performed well under pressure (especially in events in his home country). Dai came back very strong from a serious injury to successfully challenge the top men in the world, which is not an easy feat.

    IMO, Dai has not always been given the full credit he deserves from the judges. This past season was not great for Dai in terms of overall results and miscues in important performances, but he's lost none of his magical presence on the ice. With good health and the right choices of music and choreo, I believe Dai has a lot left to offer skating fans.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 05-26-2013 at 09:50 PM.

  17. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Sure Dai is not a perfect model of consistency, but when healthy he has performed well under pressure (especially in events in his home country). Dai came back very strong from a serious injury to successfully challenge the top men in the world, which is not an easy feat.

    IMO, Dai has not always been given the full credit he deserves from the judges. This past season was not great for Dai in terms of overall results and miscues in important performances, but he's lost none of his magical presence on the ice. With good health and the right choices of music and choreo, I believe Dai has a lot left to offer skating fans.
    This is not true. It took Takahashi four seasons to medal on the GP and his first Worlds medal came at age 21, in his fifth season - and he was a JW champion, unlike Buttle, Lambiel and Joubert, who didn't have nearly as much junior success. When he was the favorite in 2008 (after a brilliant 4CC) Takahashi finished off the podium, and the guys who medalled that year weren't really expected to challenge him (Buttle lost to Chan at Nats, Joubert had been ill and was off-form at Euros, Weir had never medalled at Worlds). This was all pre-injury. His comeback from the ACL injury was impressive and he has skated some brilliant performances since then, but he has also faltered badly at times. I still feel that a skater with his talent should have more to show for it.

    I do agree with your conclusion, though. Free Dai!

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    It's interesting that someone would hold up Plushenko or Lysacek as models of consistency. I suspect that pressure is less during seasons when you skip Europeans and Worlds. Plushenko was remarkable from 2003-2006 and remains a tough character, but he has been absent from so many competitions from 2007-2013 that it seems unfounded to label him consistent beyond the reach of others. The same goes for Lysacek. He was absent or imperfect at many big competitions between 2007 and 2013. My point is Joubert--whom you cite as inconsistent--has been at everything since 2002. Although he is objectively less consistent, he has put himself out under the pressure more often than these two supposedly unflappable characters.
    Plusheno was remarkable from 1997/1998, that was his first senior season. (He competed in seniors since the age of 15.) He was out of podium two times since 1998!!:
    -1998 he was 5th at GPF
    -he was 4th at WCH in 2000.( he won the ECH in 2000)
    -1999-2012( he didn't compete for a few years) one time he was 4th, five times he was in second place, and 42 times was first on ISU competitons.

    He fell at WCH 2000 in LP, 2002 at SLC in SP, ECH 2004 in LP, 2005 WCH in SP(he was injured he WD), and at ECH 2013(he WD), in major competitions.

    This is the consistency.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeni_Plushenko
    Last edited by lala; 05-27-2013 at 07:41 PM.

  19. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    This is not true. It took Takahashi four seasons to medal on the GP and his first Worlds medal came at age 21, in his fifth season - and he was a JW champion, unlike Buttle, Lambiel and Joubert, who didn't have nearly as much junior success. When he was the favorite in 2008 (after a brilliant 4CC) Takahashi finished off the podium, and the guys who medalled that year weren't really expected to challenge him (Buttle lost to Chan at Nats, Joubert had been ill and was off-form at Euros, Weir had never medalled at Worlds). This was all pre-injury. His comeback from the ACL injury was impressive and he has skated some brilliant performances since then, but he has also faltered badly at times. I still feel that a skater with his talent should have more to show for it.I do agree with your conclusion, though. Free Dai!


    I have to disagree with you. In Dai's 13 yr. competitive career there have been 4 times that he did not finish top ten. Excluding this past season Dai
    has medaled or finished top 5 since SC 2006. I believe that he has handled the pressure well and he has the medals to prove that.

    2013 - World Team Trophy - 3rd (team)
    2013 - World Championships - 6th
    2013 - Four Continents Championships - 7th
    2012 - Grand Prix Final - 1st
    2012 - NHK Trophy - 2nd
    2012 - Cup of China - 2nd
    2012 - World Team Trophy - 1st (team)
    2012 - World Championships - 2nd
    2012 - Four Continents Championships - 2nd
    2012 - Japanese Championships - 1st
    2011 - Grand Prix Final - 2nd
    2011 - NHK Trophy - 1st
    2011 - Skate Canada - 3rd
    2011 - World Championships - 5th
    2011 - Four Continents Championships - 1st
    2011 - Japanese Championships - 3rd
    2010 - Grand Prix Final - 4th
    2010 - Skate America - 1st
    2010 - NHK Trophy - 1st
    2010 - World Championships - 1st
    2010 - Olympic Winter Games - 3rd
    2010 - Japanese Championships - 1st
    2009 - Grand Prix Final - 5th
    2009 - Skate Canada - 2nd
    2009 - NHK Trophy - 4th
    2009 - Finlandia Trophy - 1st
    2008 - Japan Open - 4th
    2008 - World Championships - 4th
    2008 - Four Continents Championships - 1st
    2008 - Japanese Championships - 1st
    2007 - Grand Prix Final, Turin - 2nd
    2007 - NHK Trophy - 1st
    2007 - Skate America - 1st
    2007 - World Championships - 2nd
    2007 - Japanese Championships - 1st
    2007 - Winter Universiade - 1st
    2007 - Grand Prix Final, St. Petersburg - 2nd
    2006 - NHK Trophy - 1st
    2006 - HomeSense Skate Canada - 2nd
    2006 - Winter Olympic Games - 8th
    2006 - Japanese Championships - 1st
    2006 - Grand Prix Final, Tokyo - 3rd
    2005 - Japan International Challenge - 2nd
    2005 - NHK Trophy - 3rd
    2005 - SmartOnes Skate America - 1st
    2005 - World Championships - 15th
    2005 - Four Continents Championship - 3rd
    2005 - Japanese Championships - 6th
    2005 - Winter Universiade - 1st
    2004 - Trophee Eric Bompard - 11th
    2004 - World Championships - 11th
    2004 - Four Continents Championship - 6th
    2004 - Japanese Championships - 3rd
    2003 - Trophee Lalique - 5th
    2003 - MasterCard Skate Canada - 7th
    2003 - Four Continents Championship - 13th
    2003 - Japanese Championships - 4th
    2002 - NHK Trophy - 8th
    2002 - World Junior Championships - 1st
    2002 - Japanese Championships - 5th
    2002 - Japanese Championships, Junior - 1st
    2001 - Junior Grand Prix Final - 4th
    2001 - Junior Grand Prix (Japan) - 1st
    2001 - Junior Grand Prix (Bulgaria) - 2nd
    2001 - Japanese Championships, Junior - 4th
    2000 - Junior Grand Prix (China) - 9th
    2000 - Junior Grand Prix (Ukraine) - 8th
    2000 - Japanese Championships, Junior - 3rd

  20. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by kittyjake5 View Post
    I have to disagree with you. In Dai's 13 yr. competitive career there have been 4 times that he did not finish top ten. Excluding this past season Dai has medaled or finished top 5 since SC 2006. I believe that he has handled the pressure well and he has the medals to prove that.
    Top 5 does not equal medals. And why are you excluding the past season? Because it doesn't support your argument?

    Only four times outside the top ten? Joubert has finished outside the top ten once as a senior, and has been lower than 4th four times since the beginning of the 2006-7 season - and I think we can all agree that he is not the skater he once was. Chan has never been outside the top ten that I'm aware of. Chan and Carolina Kostner have not finished off the podium in the last three seasons. Yuna Kim has never been outside the medals, period. That's consistency.

    My point, yet again (though it's OT) is that a skater of Dai's ability should have more medals and more wins than he does. He's not fighting for a top ten finish, or even a top five finish; he's the sort of skater who should be aiming for medals and wins - yet he has often fallen short. I like Dai and I think at his best he's incredible. The problem is that he is often nowhere near his best, for various reasons.

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