View Poll Results: Do multiple falls/mistakes in a program show that a skater can handle pressure?

Voters
130. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    15 11.54%
  • No

    108 83.08%
  • Don't Know

    7 5.38%
Page 5 of 9 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 161
  1. #81

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,373
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Whilst one can have an opinion, does FSU also disallow opinions to be questioned?
    I think there's a difference between questioning and opinion and requiring relevant qualifications to express an opinion, even if the latter is done jokingly. Most of us are not elite skaters, coaches or judges (there are of course exceptions), but I don't think it makes our opinions less worthy of expression.

    I would be curious to see the shady82's explanation of why Chan should have placed ninth in the FS, however, rather than stating this as though it is obvious.

  2. #82

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,291
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    45241
    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Psst.... look at the 'name'! Shady! (The beauty of English language).
    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Whilst one can have an opinion, does FSU also disallow opinions to be questioned?
    No, but the post quoted above this one was uncalled for.

  3. #83

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Oz
    Posts
    2,551
    vCash
    400
    Rep Power
    6051
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    No, but the post quoted above this one was uncalled for.
    Oh come on Vash01, don't you have a 'sense of humour'? Or is 'sense of humour' reserved for targetting Patrick and his fans? If one think one has the right to dish out 'rubbish' be prepared to receive some in return.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  4. #84

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Partying with Oda
    Posts
    4,132
    vCash
    699
    Rep Power
    17018
    I'll jump in here with my two cents. (And this is not a "Chan bash." I've stated before that I like his skating and I'm holding to that.)

    Many fans like to point out that figure skating is more than just jumps and I agree with that. However, if you take jumps and spins out of the picture, you do not have singles skating. Therefore, my belief is that jumps and spins should make up the major part of the score and, yes, that would mean that falls should be severely punished, in a way that one cannot (and should not) win a competition with multiple falls (unless, of course, all of the other competitors perform even worse).

    That is all.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  5. #85
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,013
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Maybe Patrick Chan keeps falling because of the 14 gold medals around his neck.
    PeterG, you slay me. I think I love you.

    I hope you can appreciate the small irony re your signature line quote. IMHO, ISU judges are the ones who often have made “a mountain out of a molehill” in the way they have marked less than stellar performances by Patrick Chan.

    Aside from a few posters and perhaps excepting you too PeterG (as you generally tend to be a source of reason, sarcasm/ humor), maybe a whole lotta people wielding nails in this thread (as of now including me of course) need to take a step back, breathe and enjoy the off-season:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yRdDnrB5kM


    In regard to the thread topic, maybe Patrick is more succumbing to the pressure that his fans, the judges and he himself puts on himself to be perfect and to live up to the titles: Master SS God of the Universe, and Next Great Chanadian Hope. Tongue-in-cheek, laugh it off, don’t get excited, don’t get your buttons pushed …

    Patrick is seemingly a really nice young man who does not deserve to be caught up in this unending OTT drama. It’s not his fault … it’s just the result of strong emotions and passions coming down on various sides of the overall drama that is fs in the CoP/ men-must-have-quads-to-be-macho era. Maybe some of the increasingly strong negative reactions in Chan threads are occurring because fans don’t enjoy what is aptly perceived as unfairness in the judging. Patrick unwittingly and unintentionally plays into the drama sometimes with his comments. Maybe Patrick’s latest comments are a matter of him convincing himself he’ll be able to stay on his feet and rise to the ultimate occasion without the benefit of judges’ favoritism. It is a question whether he will ever be able to escape that burden.

    Ultimately neither Patrick nor any skater nor anyone should allow themselves to be defined by the opinions of others, not even that of the judges. There will always be someone out there outside of each and every one of us being judgmental. Patrick might be better served to look within and discover his own unique strength, his own identity, his own calm, his own conscience, his own focus, and let the outer chatter and blather fall away. Will he be able to throw off the chains and free himself? Above all, can he and we perhaps stop taking this whole OTT shebang/ sturm und drang and our opinions about it so intensely hard and self-identifying?

    To me the most interesting thing mentioned in the recent article is Patrick stating that he sent a letter to the ISU, likely apologizing for dissing WTT. He must be worried about backlash for his comments. Actually, Patrick is probably right re the fact that the scheduling of WTT is not beneficial for any of the skaters (although the scheduling does give those who didn’t do well at Worlds or who weren’t able to compete at Worlds a more immediate chance to redeem their season). In any case, Patrick’s words about WTT (not unlike Scott Moir’s caught on camera last year) were ill-timed and seemingly selfish. Also Patrick’s suggestion re starting a union is ill-timed pre-Olympic season, and more than a bit of pie-in-the-sky in the context of traditional status quo figure skating governed by TPTB. Perhaps sending a letter to the ISU was a wise move, but publicizing the fact maybe not so much. But again, so what …? Let’s enjoy the off-season. There will surely be enough pressure and gossipy judgments galore for every skater to ignore and overcome when the season of seasons begins.

    Oh, and Proustable, I thought your initial post in this thread was fairly apt and somewhat humorous, at least that's how I read it. And thanks for all your fun contributions Maofan7, even if this poll and/or its phrasing might be considered a bit of a pile-on. I know, I know, as aftershocks I too have had lots of harsh and some would deem unfair/ negative words to say about some of Patrick's wins, some of his fans, and some of his words... his career has been such a lightning rod. In the words of Doris Day: “What will be, will be. The future’s not ours to see.”

    Funny some of those speaking of dishing it out and taking it don’t seem to realize that slicing and dicing behind-the-scenes because your feelings are hurt is more of a cowardly maneuver. But then too, there comes to mind a bit of profound wisdom that Camilla Duchess of Cornwall reportedly imparted to her closest friends:
    "Don’t Complain, Don’t Explain." Hmmm … Hey Patrick, quite brilliant advice, eh?

    Can’t we all just get along, maybe go out to dinner together, joke, have fun and speak easy over a poutine?
    Last edited by aftershocks; 05-20-2013 at 04:35 AM.

  6. #86
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    321
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    The fact that Chan won 2012 and 2013 shows that there is something very wrong with IJS. Under a proper scoring system, Chan should not have won any of these championships. In fact, he would probably have been at best 9th in the FP if rated under 6.0 (behind Ten, Hanyu, Fernandez, Mura, Aaron, Reynolds, Takahashi, and Joubert). In 2013, Chan didn't fall once - he made three major mistakes including two falls. If he fell once and won, maybe it's credible.
    Hasn't 6.0 been proved "very wrong" so that it has been dumped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I would be curious to see the shady82's explanation of why Chan should have placed ninth in the FS, however, rather than stating this as though it is obvious.
    I very much doubt that Shady could explain his/her 9th place verdict well using 6.0.

    6.0 favored quad jumps more than IJS. Patrick has had one quad and one quad combo perfectly with 6 other triples including one 3A. Ten has had only one quad and also other 6 triples including two 3As. Under 6.0, UR was not called out and deducted as often and as closely as in IJS. Obviously Chan's technical level was superior to Ten in LP as well as in SP. With Chan went into the competition as two time World Champion, they were in different league especially under 6.0's reputational judging system. Under 6.0, I have no doubt that the placement would have been different. However, Ten might not be the one who'd have won this Championship even under that system. He might even have lost his silver place finish and be placed in bronze because he might have finished lower than Takahashi in SP. The reputation would have kept Hanyu and Takahashi higher than they were under IJS and would have kept Chan high enough maybe around podium level. One thing is for sure that Chan will never be dropped that much as Shady said to 9th place. He/She has just focused on falls and falls alone which was never all 6.0 just about. There were many examples of messier skating won over cleaner skating under 6.0.
    Last edited by Eyre; 05-20-2013 at 07:35 PM.

  7. #87
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    459
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    In my opinion, IJS is no better than 6.0.

    I don't understand why my statement is shocking. Maybe not as low as 9th, but enough to drop him off the podium. The entire field skated exceptionally well. Ten and Hanyu were clearly better. Fernandez, Aaron, and Mura all skated well, and the overall quality of Chan's skating isn't so much better that it can make up for so many mistakes. Reynolds and Takahashi didn't skate their best, but they were by no means bad performances. Joubert also skated well (including two quads) but was dinged under IJS because of underrotations. 6.0 might take into account underrotations somewhat, but not to the same extent (which is the way it should be). Most of these skaters who finished below him under IJS also landed 1-2 clean quads in the LP, so that justification of Chan landing the quads does not make up for his mistakes either.

    The focus was not on falls. The overall quality of Chan's skating is the best, but it isn't that much better that it makes up for so many mistakes. If Chan had just one fall, maybe fist place is justifiable by 6.0 judges. And 6.0 isn't based THAT much on reputation, Ten's performance would still be enough to land him near the top in the SP.

    Chan's SP was outstanding and possibly the highlight of the entire event, I'll give him that.

  8. #88

    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    776
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    697
    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    In my opinion, IJS is no better than 6.0.

    I don't understand why my statement is shocking. Maybe not as low as 9th, but enough to drop him off the podium. The entire field skated exceptionally well.
    I would quote the entire post. IJS is no better than 6.0... 6.0 would provide us with legitimately debatable results in close contests where really the pros/cons of each performance evened out. 6.0 also exposed cheating at the highest levels. IJS gives bizarre results where world class skaters with multiple splats beat negligibly less world class skaters who are clean with comparable or near-comparable technical content. IJS also makes it easy for a single judge to cheat (no more need to get 5 judges to collude) and masks it through anonymity. It's a draw between the two systems.

    Anyway, for the most part, a top skater splatting once was the kiss of death if his top competitors stood up, and multiple mistakes were usually the kiss of death. Here's an off the top of my head sampling of overwhelming favorites, with sterling reputations being dropped due to mistakes -

    Kurt Browning, 1992 Olympics - 4th SP, 6th FS after two mistake filled programs
    Kurt Browning, 1994 Olympics - fall on flip and a big axel pop, 12th in SP, apologizes to his country, gives a tearful interview
    Elvis Stojko, 1996 Worlds - dropped to 7th after a splat on his axel in the SP, really upset and ashamed at his performance, placed behind clean but clearly lesser skaters like Cousins and Millot
    Michelle Kwan 1997 Nationals - three significant mistakes in FS, loses title and is 3rd in FS behind Bobek
    Tara Lipinski, 1998 Nationals - reigning world champ plunged to 4th after a splat on her flip in the SP behind a clean Bobek and Kwiatkowski

    Patrick doesn't know how good he has it under the new magic of the PCS.... maybe that's why his head barely fits through the door and his foot is permanently jammed down his throat? He's indeed a great great skater, but a 7th place after a single fall when all the other really freaking good skaters go clean might give him that dose of humility he sorely needs and the legitimacy this sport is sorely fighting to hang on to.

  9. #89
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    321
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by BreakfastClub View Post
    but a 7th place after a single fall when all the other really freaking good skaters go clean might give him that dose of humility he sorely needs and the legitimacy this sport is sorely fighting to hang on to.
    How could you be sure that Chan'd have been in 7th place for one single fall which was not a quad when there was a perfect example in 2002 Olympics SP where Plushenko fell on a quad combo but was placed in 4th place and later won Olympic silver medal?

  10. #90
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    321
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    I don't understand why my statement is shocking. Maybe not as low as 9th, but enough to drop him off the podium.
    Maybe or maybe not.

    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    The entire field skated exceptionally well. Ten and Hanyu were clearly better. Fernandez, Aaron, and Mura all skated well, and the overall quality of Chan's skating isn't so much better that it can make up for so many mistakes. Reynolds and Takahashi didn't skate their best, but they were by no means bad performances. Joubert also skated well (including two quads) but was dinged under IJS because of underrotations. 6.0 might take into account underrotations somewhat, but not to the same extent (which is the way it should be). Most of these skaters who finished below him under IJS also landed 1-2 clean quads in the LP, so that justification of Chan landing the quads does not make up for his mistakes either.
    Exactly how "exceptionally well" they were? If you don't count doubling or singling the jumps as error, then Ten and Fernandez could be said error free since they are the only skaters in the top 9 who did not receive a single nagetive GOE. But as I've said, Ten's tech content was not strong enough, and so wasn't Fernandaz who had one 4T and one 4S and other 5 triples including one 3A. 4 salchows (I know his 2S was intended to be 4S) in Fernandez's program indicated the level of his tech content.
    Last edited by Eyre; 05-23-2013 at 10:21 PM.

  11. #91

    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    776
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    697
    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    How could you be sure that Chan'd have been in 7th place for one single fall which was not a quad when there was a perfect example in 2002 Olympics SP where Plushenko fell on a quad combo but was placed in 4th place and later won Olympic silver medal?
    If you need to be literal, then revise my sentence to:

    ... but an uncharacteristically (for him) lower place after a single fall when all the other really freaking good skaters go clean might give him that dose of humility he sorely needs and the legitimacy this sport is sorely fighting to hang on to.

    After the SP in Salt Lake, Plushenko would have easily been 2nd if he were clean, perhaps even gotten some 1st place ordinals and even challenged Yagudin for 1st - he skated with speed, assurance, strong posture/alignment and projected command. He had a couple minor errors in the FS with two of the hardest combos ever attempted to this date and was deservedly on the podium and definitely earned his medal.

    The only questionable placement was him vis a vis Abt in the SP. Abt skated clean with a 4t3t and was still placed behind the flawed Plush in 5th. The others behind Abt in the SP were Chengjiang Li who wasn't the same level of skater, Michael Weiss who also wasn't quite the level of Plush and was tense and stilted and only did a 4t2t (the quad itself deserved a -1 GOE at least), Stojko who bumbled his quad combo and at this point was a shadow of his former self, and Eldredge who just flat out bombed.

    Pick a better example if you want to debate.

  12. #92
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    321
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by BreakfastClub View Post
    Pick a better example if you want to debate.
    No, thanks! 6.0 was dead almost a decade ago. I'd rather debate under current system which is much more fun.

  13. #93

    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Vancouver Canada
    Age
    55
    Posts
    12,526
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    4753
    I think it is fair to say that Patrick stood up to pressure in this year's SP. Better than any other of the top men. And none of the other top men really stood up to pressure in the long, hence Patrick's win, unless you think the title should of gone to Ten, who really wasn't under any pressure.

  14. #94
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    163
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    he could handle pressure in 2013 SP.
    However, while he defend twice world titles, in 2012 WC and 2013 WC, he had four programs and he was good at only ONE program.
    In other programs, he could not handle pressure than his comepetitiors, he did more mistakes than his competitiors, and they did not seem champion's.
    Last edited by karlon; 05-24-2013 at 12:55 PM.

  15. #95

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,373
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by karlon View Post
    he could handle pressure in 2013 SP.
    However, while he defend twice world titles, in 2012 WC and 2013 WC, he had four programs and he was good at only ONE program.
    In other programs, he could not handle pressure than his comepetitiors, he did more mistakes than his competitiors, and they were did not seem champion's.
    I think I mentioned that earlier in this thread, that only one of Chan's programs in 2012/2013 was really good (and admittedly it was pretty outstanding). Compared to other recent champions, I'd argue that Chan has done a relatively poor job in defending his title: Plushenko skated very well at 2004 Worlds (though he did have that fluke fall in the LP), Lambiel had a great QR and a very strong LP in 2006, and Joubert had a great LP (and okay SP, though he did fall) in 2008. While the marks might not reflect it, IMO all three of them skated better in defense of their title than Chan has. And if we consider Vancouver something of a title defense for Lysacek, than he did better, too, boring as I find him.

    I think it can also be argued that Chan did not skate the best LP in any of his title wins. Obviously he was not first this season, but I think he was outskated last year, too, and a case can be made for Kozuka back in 2011 - Kozuka did get better TES, and I felt the huge PCS gap was not justified; Kozuka at his best is a pretty fantastic skater.

  16. #96
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    321
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    and a case can be made for Kozuka back in 2011 - Kozuka did get better TES, and I felt the huge PCS gap was not justified; Kozuka at his best is a pretty fantastic skater.
    At 2011 Worlds LP, Kozuka had lower BV 81.54 when Chan had BV 82.83. Kozuka did get higher GOEs from the judges which made him TES 98.53 against Chan's TES 96.44. Kozuka was fantastic in his skating but he pretty much skated with music as a background noise like he often did in the recent year programs. I don't see the case you're trying to build.

    Though I agree that Chan has done poor jobs in defending his title even though he did grab it at the end.
    Last edited by Eyre; 05-24-2013 at 03:19 PM.

  17. #97

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,373
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    At 2011 Worlds LP, Kozuka had lower BV 81.54 when Chan had BV 82.83. Kozuka did get higher GOEs from the judges which made him TES 98.53 against Chan's TES 96.44. Kozuka was fantastic in his skating but he pretty much skated with music as a background noise like he often did in the recent year programs. I don't see the case you're trying to build.

    Though I agree that Chan has done poor jobs in defending his title even though he did grab it at the end.
    Chan had higher BV, but did not execute as well as Kozuka. I saw Kozuka skate that program live earlier in the season, and strongly disagree with your assessment. His performance and interpretation aren't showy, but I would describe his skating as subtle, not as treating the music as background noise. Certainly I do not find Chan to be a vastly superior performer to Kozuka in this respect - actually, I don't find him a superior performer, period, not as he was skating in 2011 and with that season's material (that screechy POTO music cut ). And I don't think a case can be made that Kozuka does not have strong skating skills.

    So, in sum: IMO, Chan should have won the SP and the title in 2011, but possibly not the LP, and was then largely uninspiring at Worlds the next two seasons. Which brings me back to one of my earlier points: he's proven that he can score high, not that he can handle the pressure. The only active (?) skater among the men who's really handled pressure well for most of his career is Plushenko.

  18. #98
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    163
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    And in recent men's field, i think hanyu yuzuru have also strong mentality...

  19. #99
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    321
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Chan had higher BV, but did not execute as well as Kozuka. I saw Kozuka skate that program live earlier in the season, and strongly disagree with your assessment. His performance and interpretation aren't showy, but I would describe his skating as subtle, not as treating the music as background noise. Certainly I do not find Chan to be a vastly superior performer to Kozuka in this respect - actually, I don't find him a superior performer, period, not as he was skating in 2011 and with that season's material (that screechy POTO music cut ). And I don't think a case can be made that Kozuka does not have strong skating skills.

    So, in sum: IMO, Chan should have won the SP and the title in 2011, but possibly not the LP, and was then largely uninspiring at Worlds the next two seasons. Which brings me back to one of my earlier points: he's proven that he can score high, not that he can handle the pressure. The only active (?) skater among the men who's really handled pressure well for most of his career is Plushenko.
    That's your opinion. I don't think Chan is a "vastly superior performer". But his program had helped to bring out the best of him and made his performance magnetic and bright. Kezuka is a great skater with a cat-like soft touch in skating. He is probably the best in skating skills among all the top Japanese skaters. But he's no competitor to Chan in this department. Moreover, I'm beginning to question Kozuka's musicality after these last a few years.

    No one could dispute about Plushenko on this.

  20. #100
    Blergh
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,309
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    17257
    I think Kozuka has better skating skills than Chan, but I think Chan is more of a complete package than Kozuka. I'm not convinced about Chan's interpretation and musical performance, but I think he's better than Kozuka in that department. I usually prefer subtlety and understated performances over over-the-top histrionics myself, but I do think some times people say subtlety when it comes to things that are almost non-existent. However, it's all subjective anyway.

Page 5 of 9 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •