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  1. #141

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    To Jen's point, I think Gina was the best known missing person in Cleveland. Her parents kept the torch lit the entire time, and that is to their credit.
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  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by *Jen* View Post
    All the other allegations came out later, and just as with Jaycee Duggard, I think a lot of it comes from a community struggling to make sense of a shocking crime they don't understand.
    Agree. In any crisis, blame is a big factor. People need someone to blame so they can put the whole thing in another box and move on with their lives.

    Reports say that Castro was a known member of his community, and it sounds like many of his neighbours had contact with him over the years, and as you said, at first they were all surprised - because he seemed like a normal guy who played in a local band, participated in community events, was nice to the local kids, didn't have any conflicts with anyone.

    Then as the truth of what was happening right under their noses for many years comes out, the horror turns inward - people realize that they talked to him, spent time in his company, maybe even liked him. And they start to feel guilty - small things come back to them and they wonder if they should've caught it at the time or said something, and they question their own judgement and decisions. Maybe they recall other incidents in their lives - times when they knew something was wrong and did nothing about it, or when they were victims themselves and felt like no one would help them, and they start to imagine what they could have done if only they had known. And every day, they have to go by that house or see it across the street and it continues to haunt them.

    And that's when people look for someone else to blame.

  3. #143
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    This isn't about the Cleveland situation but I thought it was valuable while we are so focused on this horrid crime, its good to realize how rare stranger abductions are.

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  4. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckSk8r View Post
    Just because the violence already happens within prison walls doesn't make it right to wish for these things to happen. For many reasons, one of them being the safety of those working that, by law, must do their best to stop these events from happening.
    Agreed.

    And outsiders wishing for particularly detestable offenders to be victims of violence at the hands of fellow inmates won't guarantee that only the detestable end up as victims.

    Prisoners who come across as weak, who may be guilty of lesser crimes or innocent of the crimes they were convicted of could also be subject to similar violence even though there's no one on the outside hoping for them to be singled out as victims.

    Inmates who are inclined to attack other inmates aren't going to target only the victims we'd most want to see targeted.

  5. #145
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    Isn't the purpose of locking up people who are not rehabilitatable such as some sociopaths and sexual offenders to keep them from being able to do more harm? What is the point of vicious punishment? Punishment makes sense if someone is going to be released from prison and needs to understand the consequences of his/her actions so as to not do it again. But if someone is going to prison for life which this guy, if found guilty, will be unless he gets the death penalty, isn't the purpose to keep society safe from him?

    I'm not getting what else people want and why.
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  6. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    Isn't the purpose of locking up people who are not rehabilitatable such as some sociopaths and sexual offenders to keep them from being able to do more harm? What is the point of vicious punishment? Punishment makes sense if someone is going to be released from prison and needs to understand the consequences of his/her actions so as to not do it again. But if someone is going to prison for life which this guy, if found guilty, will be unless he gets the death penalty, isn't the purpose to keep society safe from him?

    I'm not getting what else people want and why.
    For some, it sounds like vengeance to me.
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  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan5 View Post
    For some, it sounds like vengeance to me.
    Well that is a human reaction to someone committing heinous acts. I hope people understand that organized, civilized societies don't engage in vengeance. There is retribution which may be what people are feeling the need for and punishment such as imprisonment can be retributive justice. But there's no place for violent vengeance; the whole point of having a criminal justice system is to remove justice to an extent from immediate human emotions.

    And as Zemgirl mentioned above the U.S. Constitution forbids cruel and unusual punishment. The fact that rape and other forms of violence happen in U.S. prisons is a violation of our Constitutional values and something that should not happen, not a part of our mandated punishment.
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  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckSk8r View Post
    Just because the violence already happens within prison walls doesn't make it right to wish for these things to happen.
    Who said they wish for it to happen? All that was initially said is that it does happen. Unless you're a big bad-*ss who can easily take care of himself, those convicted of certain crimes will either spend their time in isolation for protection, or (if it gets out what they were convicted of) often have to deal with 'prison justice'. There's no reason for me to wish anything on this Castro guy, because if convicted, I already know what awaits him. And yet again, I don't feel at ALL for sorry for what likely awaits him. Do you?

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    Who said they wish for it to happen? All that was initially said is that it does happen. Unless you're a big bad-*ss who can easily take care of himself, those convicted of certain crimes will either spend their time in isolation for protection, or (if it gets out what they were convicted of) often have to deal with 'prison justice'. There's no reason for me to wish anything on this Castro guy, because if convicted, I already know what awaits him. And yet again, I don't feel at ALL for sorry for what likely awaits him. Do you?
    I actually said that he should be chained up and the other prisoners should have their way with him. I stand by it. He is not reformable. He is scum. I wouldn't want my tax money to go to keeping him alive in prison for the rest of his life.

    I, like you, am not at all sorry for what awaits him. No matter what his fate, NOTHING can be worse than what he did to those poor girls, their families, and the community. I guess I'm a horrible person.

  10. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twizzler View Post
    I actually said that he should be chained up and the other prisoners should have their way with him. I stand by it. He is not reformable. He is scum. I wouldn't want my tax money to go to keeping him alive in prison for the rest of his life.

    I, like you, am not at all sorry for what awaits him. No matter what his fate, NOTHING can be worse than what he did to those poor girls, their families, and the community. I guess I'm a horrible person.
    The problem with this kind of retribution - with torture and abuse as retribution - is that it reduces one to the same level as the monster who committed the atrocity. I wonder if I would want such retribution had I been the victim of such a monster. Or, if I would want such retribution had I been a victim of a Hitler or Stalin. I just don't know the answer.

    At the same time, I question the purpose of keeping such criminals alive. Technically I don't support the death penalty, but to be honest on some level, I wonder why someone just doesn't off such persons, off the record. Or leave them to the devices of other prisoners, many of whom despise rapists and pedophiles. There is a man imprisoned for the torture and death of some 43 prostitutes here in British Columbia (known as the pig farmer). I really wonder why someone just didn't 'arrange' his death. To what point is he sitting in prison for life?

  11. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    The problem with this kind of retribution - with torture and abuse as retribution - is that it reduces one to the same level as the monster who committed the atrocity. I wonder if I would want such retribution had I been the victim of such a monster. Or, if I would want such retribution had I been a victim of a Hitler or Stalin. I just don't know the answer.

    At the same time, I question the purpose of keeping such criminals alive. Technically I don't support the death penalty, but to be honest on some level, I wonder why someone just doesn't off such persons, off the record. Or leave them to the devices of other prisoners, many of whom despise rapists and pedophiles. There is a man imprisoned for the torture and death of some 43 prostitutes here in British Columbia (known as the pig farmer). I really wonder why someone just didn't 'arrange' his death. To what point is he sitting in prison for life?
    As others have said, the purpose of prison is to protect society. There are a lot of punishments aimed at reform, but prison isn't one of them. In fact, the rate of re-offending is quite high, which is why for less serious crimes, some sort of control order or rehabilitation is sometimes favoured. It's why Lindsay Lohan has been to rehab so many times, really

    As to why they didn't 'arrange' his death: people in Western societies are generally fairly happy about the fact they are "free". In the Us especially, it's supposed to be the home of the free. You cannot have a free society when governments or prison guards are secretly arranging the execution of prisoners at will. It's simply too arbitrary.

    Either you have a proper death penalty and death row policy, or you don't. There's absolutely no room for the arbitrary, secret execution of prisoners unless you want to forgo your freedoms and admit that you live in a country that Obama and Bush describe as anti-democratic, such as Iraq or Iran. There would be outrage if an innocent person was put in jail without a trial and then arbitrarily executed, and there absolutely should be. The justice system doesn't just protect criminals, it protects everyone. It fails at times, sure. But in general, it's a hell of a lot better than living in a country where women are stoned to death for refusing a forced marriage, or where you can be tortured for the colour of your skin.

    Also, as others have said, the point of prison is punishment and to keep offenders off the street. If Castro is in prison for life, he can't re-offend. If he's dead, there's always the risk that he will become a martyr for sick bastards who aspire to commit the same crime. There's a perverse glory in being executed that the vast majority of murderers and rapists simply don't deserve.
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  12. #152

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    I've always thought it silly that people think those in jail can't reoffend. They often do reoffend, but it's in the confines of the jail. Plenty of prisoners have extra sentences tacked on to the sentences they were originally sent to prison for because they committed crimes while in jail. A crime is a crime whether committed in the confines of a jail or not. People just don't care so much about crimes committed in jail, because they figure it was deserved -whether for the crime they committed to get locked up in the first place, or something else. People rarely feel as sorry for criminals who have crimes committed against them.

    I am for the death penalty in theory, but in practice I am not. One innocent life taken is one too many, and people make mistakes and wrongly convict. I'd love it to be implemented in cases where it is "certain" that the guilty party is indeed guilty (as seems the case here), but then all cases are "certain" when they're found guilty. In theory, it should work, in practice, it doesn't.
    Last edited by Angelskates; 05-14-2013 at 11:26 AM.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    Who said they wish for it to happen? All that was initially said is that it does happen. Unless you're a big bad-*ss who can easily take care of himself, those convicted of certain crimes will either spend their time in isolation for protection, or (if it gets out what they were convicted of) often have to deal with 'prison justice'. There's no reason for me to wish anything on this Castro guy, because if convicted, I already know what awaits him. And yet again, I don't feel at ALL for sorry for what likely awaits him. Do you?
    Do you really think that believing in a civilized justice system is about feeling sympathy for people who commit heinous crimes? What I care about is my country and how it functions and that we are able collectively through our justice system to deal aptly with those who commit such horrific crimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twizzler View Post
    I actually said that he should be chained up and the other prisoners should have their way with him. I stand by it. He is not reformable. He is scum. I wouldn't want my tax money to go to keeping him alive in prison for the rest of his life.

    I, like you, am not at all sorry for what awaits him. No matter what his fate, NOTHING can be worse than what he did to those poor girls, their families, and the community. I guess I'm a horrible person.
    Needless to say you're not a horrible person. For me, I put this perpetrator as much as possible out of my mind. I trust to our justice system to deal with him and yes it does fail sometimes but that is a different discussion. I don't want to give him continued power even as he is in custody to wreak havoc by even thinking about him so much that it evokes anger. He isn't worth a moment's thought.
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  14. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by *Jen* View Post
    As others have said, the purpose of prison is to protect society. There are a lot of punishments aimed at reform, but prison isn't one of them. In fact, the rate of re-offending is quite high, which is why for less serious crimes, some sort of control order or rehabilitation is sometimes favoured. It's why Lindsay Lohan has been to rehab so many times, really
    My understanding is that the objectives (in no particular order), are to punish, to protect society, and in many cases, also to rehabilitate. Lindsay Lohan usually goes to rehab (not prison/jail) for substance abuse issues, which is not the same thing; addiction is a hard thing to kick. As for recidivism, I'm not sure what the rates are for different types of offenses, but there are certainly people who do manage to stay out of prison and lead normal lives after they are released. Supervision is important, and so are opportunities to reintegrate into society. Though all that, of course, is not relevant to Castro's case. He's not going to be leaving prison, at least not legally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    I've always thought it silly that people think those in jail can't reoffend. They often do reoffend, but it's in the confines of the jail. Plenty of prisoners have extra sentences tacked on to the sentences they were originally sent to prison for because they committed crimes while in jail. A crime is a crime whether committed in the confines of a jail or not. People just don't care so much about crimes committed in jail, because they figure it was deserved -whether for the crime they committed to get locked up in the first place, or something else. People rarely feel as sorry for criminals who have crimes committed against them.
    That's a good point; the statistics on prison rape are appalling, and often it's the weakest who are targeted. It's worth noting that many people are in prison for things other than violent crimes, and that women in prison are often the target of violence too, including sexual violence. Of course Ariel Castro's crimes as reported so far are truly heinous, and he belongs in prison; but I just don't feel society, and the criminal justice system, should be in the business of condoning any sort of violent additions to anyone's sentence. Rape is a crime, always; it should never be considered a legitimate form of punishment. And it's the job of the justice system to dispense justice on behalf of victims and society, not that of fellow inmates.

    I am for the death penalty in theory, but in practice I am not. One innocent life taken is one too many, and people make mistakes and wrongly convict. I'd love it to be implemented in cases where it is "certain" that the guilty party is indeed guilty (as seems the case here), but then all cases are "certain" when they're found guilty. In theory, it should work, in practice, it doesn't.
    Yes, wrongful convictions are something that has really affected the way people think about the death penalty. While there are cases where there's no doubt that the crime is horrific and the right person is being punished, all you need is to look at a case like Anthony Graves', or the Central Park Five, or quite a few of the cases listed by the Innocence Project, to have serious concerns about how the death penalty is applied.

    Returning to the victims/survivors in this case, this article argues that the public interest and the media attention are essentially keeping the women prisoner now, and hindering their recovery. I think that's a valid point.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post

    And as Zemgirl mentioned above the U.S. Constitution forbids cruel and unusual punishment. The fact that rape and other forms of violence happen in U.S. prisons is a violation of our Constitutional values and something that should not happen, not a part of our mandated punishment.
    The Constitution is not about values. It is SOLELY a list of what the federal government does and is not permitted to do. The Bill of Rights is about what the federal government CANNOT do (prevent citizens from assembling, owning weapons, require them to belong to a particular church to serve in government, seize property without legal cause, quarter troops in their homes, self-incriminate, and in the context of this conversation inflict punishment judged to be excessively cruel or 'unusual'.) It's about limiting government power, not about granting rights or establishing values. The only real "value" it's establishing is strict limits on the national government.

    Guards encouraging other prisoners to torture someone would be a crime itself, not because it's cruel or unusual but because telling someone to commit a violent crime is a crime. Not caring if it happens to someone who's committed heinous acts against innocent people is human nature.

    And prison is not supposed to be comfortable or pleasant. If they're not going to execute someone, but not going to release them, it should be the minimum required to sustain life. There is no reason to make someone comfortable, healthy, or happy in prison if they are being kept there because they're a danger to the public.

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    I have faith in Karma and I sincerely hope that this horrible man will somehow, somewhere be on the receiving end for everything that he has dealt out to those women. I trust the justice system to find him guilty. If while he is in prison and confined the way he confined his victims, he suffers the same indignities and abuse that he heaped on them, I am not going to cry about it.
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  17. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    And prison is not supposed to be comfortable or pleasant. If they're not going to execute someone, but not going to release them, it should be the minimum required to sustain life. There is no reason to make someone comfortable, healthy, or happy in prison if they are being kept there because they're a danger to the public.
    Aside from life sentences, if we're talking about shorter sentences then we're also talking about people who presumably will be released back to the community. In those cases, imprisonment is a punishment that should be unpleasant, but we don't want it to be such torture that the prisoners even more unsocialized when they get out than when they went in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    The Constitution is not about values. It is SOLELY a list of what the federal government does and is not permitted to do. The Bill of Rights is about what the federal government CANNOT do (prevent citizens from assembling, owning weapons, require them to belong to a particular church to serve in government, seize property without legal cause, quarter troops in their homes, self-incriminate, and in the context of this conversation inflict punishment judged to be excessively cruel or 'unusual'.) It's about limiting government power, not about granting rights or establishing values. The only real "value" it's establishing is strict limits on the national government.

    Guards encouraging other prisoners to torture someone would be a crime itself, not because it's cruel or unusual but because telling someone to commit a violent crime is a crime. Not caring if it happens to someone who's committed heinous acts against innocent people is human nature.

    And prison is not supposed to be comfortable or pleasant. If they're not going to execute someone, but not going to release them, it should be the minimum required to sustain life. There is no reason to make someone comfortable, healthy, or happy in prison if they are being kept there because they're a danger to the public.
    Well I think the Constitution embodies the values on which this country was founded and endures. I'm not sure we are really talking about the same thing in that regard, but its mostly beside the point.

    I agree people who lose their rights to live freely in society should not expect for life in prison to be pleasant. They should have their human needs met but there isn't going to be much else. You've lost those rights if you are convicted and sentenced to life in prision. You have not lost the right to be treated humanely but that is not the same thing.

    It certainly is a normal human reaction to a heinous crime(s) to think of the perpetrator being served up the treatment he inflicted on others. When we learn about something like this we're processing how to deal with the notion that in our society someone could inflict this horror on three young women. I don't want to focus on the perpetrator at all, that's my way of dealing with it, but others will be so disgusted they will feel the need to say he should be treated in ways we don't as a society condone. I don't blame anyone for feeling that way.

    As someone noted above, crimes can be committed in prison and beating or raping another prisoner no matter what crime that person was convicted of, is just another crime. As a society its incumbent on us to prevent those crimes, just as we seek to prevent crimes against citizens who are not incarcerated.
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  19. #159
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    There are conflicting reports about whether Michelle Knight's mother has seen her or not, but MamaKnight (and her lawyer) continue to make this about her...and I read Michelle Knight may need facial reconstruction surgery. It sounds like she was made to bear the brunt of the physical abuse - not to diminish the abuse of the others, it's not a zero sum situation, but reading that she was pregnant a lot but abused to keep her from having children while Amanda's child was not only wanted but the others were threatened if the baby died, it does sound like she was made to physically suffer just unbelievably. Every tie I think the story can't get worse it does.
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    This whole thing is mind boggling. Castro would not allow his brothers to go past the kitchen, and yet nobody thought it was odd? I am not saying they had a hand in it, but why wouldn't anyone question a bizzare behavior for almost 10 years? I can understand- though to a small extent- neighbors not wanting to interfere when something looks odd, but family members?

    I have a tough time having sympathy for this jerk and the guy who kidnapped Jaycee Dugard. They are scums and they deserve to be in prison, with no possibility of parol. I am not going to condone anyone attacking a prison mate, but if that happens, it is the result of the horrible things these evil people did to the innocent girls. They have 'earned' it. I see no reason to make their lives in prison 'pleasant'. As far as safety goes, prison rules are to be followed, that's all.

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