Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 43
  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    125
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0

    Why didnt Meno & Sand achieve more.

    Meno & Sand were a really elegant and beautiful team but they never really seemed capable of winning a major title, despite winning 3 world medals. They were generally underdogs even in a rather weak pairs era where the top teams ahead of them wer Shishkova & Naumov, Eltsova & Bushkov, Kovarikova & Novotny, Kazhakova & Dmitriev, and Woetzel & Stuuer. That did they lack to become more of a threat than they were atleast.

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Some place competitive and athletic, but ultimately more like an audition than anything else.
    Posts
    7,797
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    19516
    I love their skating. They were like fragile porcelain skaters on top of a music box. They achieved more than any American pair could have expected in the last 50 years.

  3. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    84
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    They lacked consistency, SBS triple jumps, difficult throws, etc. (yes, they attempted some of the big tricks, but were hardly consistent - hence why they'd go for SBS 2axels in the SP, etc.). Elegant lines, but they were also quite bland with their choreography.

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91872
    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    I love their skating. They were like fragile porcelain skaters on top of a music box. They achieved more than any American pair could have expected in the last 50 years.
    I disagree. They never won a world title. Babilonia-Gardner won world title in 1979.

    They never won an Olympic medal. Watson-Oppegard won a bronze in 1988.

    Both are within 50 years.

    The reason Meno & Sand did not win was they lacked consistency and they could not match the speed of the Russian and Canadian pairs. At the 1998 worlds when they had a chance to win, they did only a throw single axel. They were lucky to win back to back world bronze medals in relatively weak fields.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Some place competitive and athletic, but ultimately more like an audition than anything else.
    Posts
    7,797
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    19516
    Who the hell expected World titles and Olympic medals from Americans? Those were reserved for communist and former communist teams. It did happen ... like people winning the lottery happens.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 05-07-2013 at 06:40 AM.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91872
    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Who the hell expected World titles and Olympic medals from Americas? Those were reserved for communist and former communist teams. It did happen ... like people winning the lottery happens.
    That is a very unfair statement. If you look at the quality of pairs skating, there was no comparison between the USSR/Russians and the Americans, after the Protopopovs changed the face of pairs skating. The Russians had superior speed, athleticism, lyricism and consistency. Watson-Oppegard actually won their Olympic bronze medal despite a fall, beating Selezneva-Makarov in 1988. There was no lottery there. They just happened to skate better, and technically stronger.

    Considering how deep the talent pool was in the USSR in particular (it continued for sometime after the breakup), it was not surprising that they dominated pairs skating and ice dancing for decades. During that time the Americans dominated the singles in men (until the mid-90's) and ladies (until 2002) but you conveniently ignore that, and don't accuse the Americans for it.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Some place competitive and athletic, but ultimately more like an audition than anything else.
    Posts
    7,797
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    19516
    There was nothing unfair about my comment. Note in my original comment I said "pair". It would have been more likely for Rodnina to win another World title in the third trimester of a pregnancy or Selezneva and Makarov getting 3rd instead of 4th at the 1988 Olympics despite Makarov competing with a broken knee.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 05-07-2013 at 06:54 AM.

  8. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Dashing Between Bennetton and Krispy Kreme
    Posts
    2,454
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    American pairs have a propensity for splitting up. In a way I am kind of sorry Meno and Wendland didn't stick together. I loved their short program from the 1992 Olympic Games and felt they had real long term potential.

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Entitiled
    Posts
    5,615
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    American pairs have a propensity for splitting up. In a way I am kind of sorry Meno and Wendland didn't stick together. I loved their short program from the 1992 Olympic Games and felt they had real long term potential.
    Speaking of Meno & Sand's former partners, I enjoyed this SP from Natasha Kuchiki & Todd Sand in 1991: http://youtu.be/9H5HElyfphA

  10. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    239
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I disagree. They never won a world title. Babilonia-Gardner won world title in 1979.

    They never won an Olympic medal. Watson-Oppegard won a bronze in 1988.

    Both are within 50 years.

    The reason Meno & Sand did not win was they lacked consistency and they could not match the speed of the Russian and Canadian pairs. At the 1998 worlds when they had a chance to win, they did only a throw single axel. They were lucky to win back to back world bronze medals in relatively weak fields.
    They should have learnt the side by side triple toes sooner. Had they had that jumps they could have won the 95 and 96 Worlds. In 96 they might have won given the crappy event even as it was if he had not stepped out of his double axel in the short program. When the opportunities were there they often made mistakes. Their biggest blown opportunity of all was probably the 97 Worlds, which would have given them much more momentum going into the Olympic season.

    Their triple twist was also weak for a top senior pair. They were elegant and had nice lines, and some very nice programs at times, but they lacked technical power, and he wasnt strong enough physically to do the huge pair tricks of some other top pairs.

  11. #11
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    3,848
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Considering how deep the talent pool was in the USSR in particular (it continued for sometime after the breakup), it was not surprising that they dominated pairs skating and ice dancing for decades. During that time the Americans dominated the singles in men (until the mid-90's) and ladies (until 2002) but you conveniently ignore that, and don't accuse the Americans for it.
    Actually, the Canadians dominated singles in mens, not Americans (unless you meant North Americans). Browning won 3 world titles in the 90s (and a silver), Stojko won 3 as well, with an additional 3 medals, and his 2 O's medals.

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    781
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1925
    Quote Originally Posted by screech View Post
    Actually, the Canadians dominated singles in mens, not Americans (unless you meant North Americans). Browning won 3 world titles in the 90s (and a silver), Stojko won 3 as well, with an additional 3 medals, and his 2 O's medals.
    Actually, it was really the US, Canada and USSR/ex-USSR that co-dominated men's skating for over a decade - Orser/Boitano/Fadeev in the 80s, then Browning/Petrenko w/Bowman & Eldredge in the late 80s early 90s, followed by Stojko/Eldredge/Urmanov & Kulik mid-90s thru 1998. Every now and then a Barna, Candeloro or Filipowski would crash a podium but these 3 countries dominated all the World and Olympic podiums from 1984-1998 (especially '84-'94).

    Back to original topic - Todd Sand was just getting too old by the time he partnered with Jenni. I give him all the credit in the world for trying to learn a triple toe after the age of 30, but they pretty much maxed out what they could do technically due to his age and their lack of power/speed. Their success is attributable to the brilliance of John Nicks and Mr. Nicks (as always) knowing exactly how to package a skater or team in way that would maximize their strengths (for Meno/Sand their presentation, lines, carriage) and having them well trained for competition pretty much at the limit of their abilities (and IMO sometimes perhaps past their abilities, which is when they'd make mistakes.)

  13. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    6,297
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    He couldn't jump.

  14. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    “It is far more important to have a good judge than a possible conflict of interest." - Ottavio Cinquanta
    Posts
    1,635
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Who the hell expected World titles and Olympic medals from Americans? Those were reserved for communist and former communist teams. It did happen ... like people winning the lottery happens.
    I agree.

  15. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,333
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    They looked slow and tentative compared to other teams. They didn't have the biggest difficulties (throw triples or sbs jumps). I think they have achieved very, very well, considering their potential.

  16. #16
    From the Bloc
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    California, I wish
    Posts
    17,368
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    11617
    One thing that they did achieve that not too many have is a decent pro career. They were on SOI (and I think CSOI some years as well) for years, back when the tour was 40+ dates, plus they did the pro competitions, and if memory serves, a few guest starring roles on all the tv specials we used to enjoy.

    All in all, not a bad career at all.

  17. #17

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91872
    Quote Originally Posted by screech View Post
    Actually, the Canadians dominated singles in mens, not Americans (unless you meant North Americans). Browning won 3 world titles in the 90s (and a silver), Stojko won 3 as well, with an additional 3 medals, and his 2 O's medals.
    Sorry, I was not clear. I meant North Americans (not just US Americans).

    In the ladies though I meant US ladies.

  18. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    9,802
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabybackhand View Post
    Meno & Sand were a really elegant and beautiful team
    I think they tried hard to package themselves in the same elegant mode as the top European pairs, but I didn't buy it; I don't think the international judges bought it either. Todd, for one, hunched his upper body, and physically for a male pair skater, he looked slight out of the ice. I thought overall they were boring ... one of my fridge breaks.

  19. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    9,802
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    One thing that they did achieve that not too many have is a decent pro career. They were on SOI (and I think CSOI some years as well) for years, back when the tour was 40+ dates, plus they did the pro competitions, and if memory serves, a few guest starring roles on all the tv specials we used to enjoy.

    All in all, not a bad career at all.
    Well they were riding the crest of skating popularity in the aftermath of Nacy&Tonya scandal. And beside Kyoko & Zimmerman, what other top American pairs with any sort of name recognitions were available for SOI and those made-for-tv competitions? The producers weren't going to get "nobodies" to fill those slots.

  20. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Entitiled
    Posts
    5,615
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    They were like fragile porcelain skaters on top of a music box.
    I think this is precisely the reason why I didn't care for Meno & Sand's skating. I did however, really enjoy Natasha Kuchiki and Todd Sand's SP from 1991.
    That being said, M&S's competitive accomplishments, even during a period of transition in pairs skating, is certainly nothing to sneeze at, three world medals is impressive.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •