View Poll Results: How would Nicole Bobek's '98 US Nats programs have placed at Nagano?

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  • Gold

    2 4.55%
  • Silver

    1 2.27%
  • Bronze

    25 56.82%
  • 4th or lower

    16 36.36%
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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Didn't Lu Chen have a true Lutz? Her SP on Youtube has a slo-mo replay of it and it looks like it takes off from a true outside edge.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxER4...ailpage#t=252s
    You're right: that takeoff looked good. (The landing, not so great.)
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  2. #22
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    I would have liked to see a another triple flip to assure a third place

  3. #23
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    The way everyone skated probably. However had everyone skated their best the bronze would have gone to Butyrskaya, with Slutskaya 4th, Szewcenko (healthy and skating) 5th, and Bobek probably 6th. What is the point of assuming Bobek the most inconsistent skater ever skating her best, and not give the same consideration to others who also didnt. As it was it was a crappy competition outside the first 2 and a by then technically weak (even when she skated somewhat clean) Lu Chen was able to win the bronze.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    6. Slutskaya (though I think Bonaly should have been ahead).
    Bonaly should not have been ahead. Yes her triple toe-triple toe was much harder than Irina's disaesterous double lutz-double toe, but every other one of Irina's 7 elements were much better, and her presentation was also much better. Bonaly was never that good a skater, she was only a top skater in the relatively weak 93-95 transition era. Once Irina overcome her as the best European skater in 96 her career was basically over.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustafinabars View Post
    Bonaly should not have been ahead. Yes her triple toe-triple toe was much harder than Irina's disaesterous double lutz-double toe, but every other one of Irina's 7 elements were much better, and her presentation was also much better. Bonaly was never that good a skater, she was only a top skater in the relatively weak 93-95 transition era. Once Irina overcome her as the best European skater in 96 her career was basically over.
    Um, Bonaly's presentation was not weaker. Slutskaya's basic skating and speed was better so she wins on those points, but Bonaly had difficult spins that were centered so that wasn't as big of a detriment compared to Slute's spins. Her footwork was on par because Slute's FW didn't really best utilize her actual skills. Then in terms of presenting the music and to the audience, Bonaly was way ahead of Slute. That SP is probably the best SP of Bonaly's career.

  6. #26
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    I think Bobek could have beaten Chen. I'm not a big fan of Nicole, but she had the 95 world title had she skated clean in the long. The problem with Bobek at that stage is she had discredited herself with the judges too somewhat. She had disastrous performances at almost all her GP's a few seasons before, melted down at 97 worlds etc. She had two good nationals in 97 and 98 though. Outisde of that I don't remember too many clean performances from her

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    It's a shame about her missing 1999 nationals. She was getting better and better as the season progressed. I don't think she had a shot at beating Kwan in the U.S. but she might have medaled at 1999 worlds. Had she not been injured, Hughes would not have made the 1999 world team, wouldn't have been eligible for the 2000 worlds and wouldn't have been a factor in Salt Lake City. One can dream at least.
    Hughes would have been eligible for Worlds in 2000 either way, because she was eligible as a result of her silver at 1999 Jr. Worlds, not any kind of grandfathering as a result of attending 1999 Worlds. The rule about Jr. World medalists being eligible for Worlds didn't change until after the 2000 Worlds, by which point Hughes was age-eligible anyway. You may recall that Cohen needed a medal at 2000 Jr. Worlds to be eligible for 2000 Worlds, which she didn't get, and the rule was changed shortly after - probably more because the change in timing of Jr. Worlds that season highlighted the rule rather than because of Cohen specifically.

    On the actual topic of the thread, I think she could have been anywhere between 3rd and 5th, but I'd lean towards fourth. The emotion of Lu Chen's performance had the judges forgiving what were considered minor errors under 6.0 and I don't think a solid performance by Bobek would have changed that. I feel like the judges wanted to give that medal to Chen over anyone else.

  8. #28
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    IDK. I sometimes think the judges did not want to see one country sweep any podium, so they would've held Bobek down in 4th..

    Another tantalizing discussion - where would Tanja Szewczenko's performances from the '97 - '98 GPF placed her in relation to a clean Bobek, as well as Bute, Slute and Chen?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    Hughes would have been eligible for Worlds in 2000 either way, because she was eligible as a result of her silver at 1999 Jr. Worlds, not any kind of grandfathering as a result of attending 1999 Worlds. The rule about Jr. World medalists being eligible for Worlds didn't change until after the 2000 Worlds, by which point Hughes was age-eligible anyway.
    No, that's not how it worked at the time. 1999 junior worlds would not have qualified Hughes. Skaters needed to medal at junior worlds in the season they wanted to compete at senior worlds. The ISU voted in the spring of 1999 to allow an exception to Hughes based on her performance at 99 senior worlds. Hughes and Wagner even talked about being grateful for the ruling when she won Vienna Cup in the fall of 1999 and that from then on out, she never had to worry about junior competitions.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    Hughes would have been eligible for Worlds in 2000 either way, because she was eligible as a result of her silver at 1999 Jr. Worlds, not any kind of grandfathering as a result of attending 1999 Worlds. The rule about Jr. World medalists being eligible for Worlds didn't change until after the 2000 Worlds, by which point Hughes was age-eligible anyway. You may recall that Cohen needed a medal at 2000 Jr. Worlds to be eligible for 2000 Worlds, which she didn't get, and the rule was changed shortly after - probably more because the change in timing of Jr. Worlds that season highlighted the rule rather than because of Cohen specifically.

    On the actual topic of the thread, I think she could have been anywhere between 3rd and 5th, but I'd lean towards fourth. The emotion of Lu Chen's performance had the judges forgiving what were considered minor errors under 6.0 and I don't think a solid performance by Bobek would have changed that. I feel like the judges wanted to give that medal to Chen over anyone else.
    Thats interesting. Usually the judges lowballe Chen. The only time she was unanimously 1st or 2nd at a major competition was the LP at 96 worlds that I remember. I do agree that she had a slight advantage with the type of program construction she had. Butterfly lovers was on par with her Last Emperor program presentation wise. I also didn't get why she was critiqued for her footwork and spirals, I thought she always incorporated them beautifully in her programs from 94 onwards.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    This. I think the only top rated lady in Nagano who had a true lutz was Maria B.
    And Lulu.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    Nicole would have deserved the bronze medal. The only way I could see it not happening is if the judges were just completely hell bent on making sure that the U.S. ladies didn't sweep the medals. The same way I think the judges were hell bent on making sure North American teams didn't sweep dance in Vancouver.
    Amen, I totally agree with this.

  13. #33

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    I don't know. No combo on a triple jump (a split jump to Toe Loop counts under 6.0, but it's not really one compared to a Lutz/toe combo), and no second Lutz and no Loop...I don't think Bobek's Nationals performance was really that technically strong to say that the judges could not have reasonably placed her below Bute, Slute, and Chen outside not wanting an American sweep.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    No, that's not how it worked at the time. 1999 junior worlds would not have qualified Hughes. Skaters needed to medal at junior worlds in the season they wanted to compete at senior worlds.
    Then how did Plushenko compete at 1998 Worlds? He didn't meet the age limit (turned 15 in November 1997, after the July 1 deadline) and won Jr. Worlds in 1996-97 but didn't compete in 1997-98.

    The ISU voted in the spring of 1999 to allow an exception to Hughes based on her performance at 99 senior worlds. Hughes and Wagner even talked about being grateful for the ruling when she won Vienna Cup in the fall of 1999 and that from then on out, she never had to worry about junior competitions.
    I'd be interested in seeing a source on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    Thats interesting. Usually the judges lowballe Chen.
    I'd agree with this, and I even feel like she was lowballed earlier in the season on the GP. So I very well could be off-base on my assumption here, since I have no evidence other than gut feel. But the last time I watched the competition, I was surprised at how Chen's program had a lot more mistakes than I remembered and felt that Bute's much stronger content probably should have kept her over Chen, even though I preferred Chen. But it seemed to be the one time that the judges gave Chen the benefit of the doubt, and I don't know that a good performance from Bobek changes that.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    Then how did Plushenko compete at 1998 Worlds? He didn't meet the age limit (turned 15 in November 1997, after the July 1 deadline) and won Jr. Worlds in 1996-97 but didn't compete in 1997-98.



    I'd be interested in seeing a source on this.



    I'd agree with this, and I even feel like she was lowballed earlier in the season on the GP. So I very well could be off-base on my assumption here, since I have no evidence other than gut feel. But the last time I watched the competition, I was surprised at how Chen's program had a lot more mistakes than I remembered and felt that Bute's much stronger content probably should have kept her over Chen, even though I preferred Chen. But it seemed to be the one time that the judges gave Chen the benefit of the doubt, and I don't know that a good performance from Bobek changes that.
    I don't know about 1998. That's his situation. I'm talking about Sarah's situation in 1999 and 2000. At the time the ISU rulebook special rules section stated:

    Rule 378:


    3. Competitors under fifteen (15) years of age as of July 1st
    preceding the Championships, may not participate in an ISU Senior
    Championship, unless they have been among the first three placed
    competitors in the World Junior Championships held in the immediately
    preceding calendar year.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    I'd be interested in seeing a source on this.
    And if the ISU Rulebook isn't a good enough source, here's a link reposting a Phil Hersh article from spring 1999. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.s...ing.ice.figure

  17. #37
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    The judges didnt usually give Chen any help but they sure did in Nagano. Butyrskaya and Slutskaya even with all their mistakes should have still beaten her. Chen was a very medicore technical skater for elite standards by then, even when she skated relatively clean technically without big errors. She was definitely given sympathy points by judges for where her skating was at that point, and it means Bobek would have had to skate lights out to beat her most likely, as she doesnt have the rep value of any of those other three by then and a U.S sweep is not something that would excite the European judges who were probably already disconsolate about the overwhelming Kwan/Lipinski dominance on par with V/M and D/W today.

    I think the judges were also gifting Chen in Nagano to make up for all the times they screwed her over past- 93 Worlds, 96 Worlds, maybe even 94 Olympics. They knew it was her last competition so decided to make up a little bit of the times they wronged her in the past, but the problem is it just adds even more to already shitty judging over many years when they attempt their makeup gifts.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    This. I think the only top rated lady in Nagano who had a true lutz was Maria B.
    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    And Lulu.
    And Vanessa Gusmeroli. She was the current World bronze medalist, and finished in 6th.

  19. #39

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    To be fair to the judges, the majority had Chen in 4th. What happened was that Butyrskaya was missing one more third place vote to make a majority and it came down to who had the least 5th place votes (or most 3rd/4th place votes). Interesting to note that none of the three had a majority of 5th place votes either.

    This thread inspired me re-watch Chen, Butyrskaya, and Slutskaya in Nagano and I actually think their technical content was either more impressive than or at least on-par with Bobek's overall. Slutskaya did five triples, but she included a triple/triple and two other jump combinations. She did have two hands down on the Triple Flip, however. Chen did five triples as well, but attempted two other ones. Her flip wasn't necessarily a fall, but a step-out, and she attempted a triple toe/triple toe. Overall, she still had two Lutzes, a Loop, a Salchow, and a Triple Toe with a Lutz and Toe in combination (something Bobek did not have). Maria Butyrskaya's performance had a Triple Lutz (it's hard to tell from the CBS coverage whether it was a two-footed landing or a close free leg on the landing...), Triple Flip (not a two-foot, just stilted), Triple Salchow-Triple Toe Loop sequence, Triple Loop (scratchy but clean), a double toe loop, and then a Double axel/double toe loop. Butyrskaya may arguably have four triples (I'd credit her with five) and one Lutz (like Bobek), but she had a 3/3 sequence which is something Bobek did not have.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 05-07-2013 at 12:39 AM.

  20. #40
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    Butyrskaya still should have been 3rd on her own IMO. I dont understand how her artistic scores were so much lower than the Helsinki Worlds when it was the exact same LP (and yes Kwan didnt skate her best there, but the judges were willing to give her almost all 5.9s for artistry even before Kwan skated her LP). She didnt jump anywhere near as well as Helsinki so that would explain the much lower tech. marks compared to that event, but not the much lower second marks for the exact same music and choreography essentialy.

    Even if Chen sort of did strong technical content, and had fewer outright misses than Maria and Irina, and the judges still loved her artistry, her jumps were weak, whippy, and barely rotated (or not even rotated), and her spins were absolutely abysmal. I would have given her 5.3 or 5.4 for technical.

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