I definitely get that. I pretty much hated their 1996 FD from the start so rarely went back and watched. I recently had a G&P marathon, and was surprised that I enjoyed it even more than TFB, which somehow didn't hold up that well for me (it just doesn't look as complex as some of the current CoP stuff). Memorial holds up, and upon reflection, St. James Infirmary is my favorite G&P FD of all time. That rawness that they had actually makes it better, but it definitely would have been amazing to see them to do that dance in 1998.
Originally Posted by lulu
Great post. You covered it all. I edited out chunks of it, mainly to avoid a very long 'quote' which is always hard to read.
Originally Posted by Cherub721
In 1994 I did not feel that G&P deserved to win the OGM, but then who else did? U&Z basically self destructed by getting away from what made them great. T&D had their own issues with rules. Although they were great performers I am not sure that their FD was a slam dunk in 1994. G&P may have won on their innovation and speed. Katia Gordeeva spoke highly of their FD in her book 'My Sergei'. At the 1994 Euros G&P won the FD over T&D, so it was a high quality FD, and it was fun to watch. They did break some rules though and were not penalized for it. May be that started the negative feelings of some fans toward them.
I think G&P were hated for a long time because - 1)they beat T&D in 94 Oly, 2) Oksana had an affair with Zhulin, 3)Oksana changed her name to Pasha.
All along though, they continued to innovate, improve and challenge themselves every year. After 1994 I don't think any other dance team was strong enough to beat them. In 1998 K&O were outstanding, but they did themselves a disservice with the choreography of their FD. Tracy Wilson was totally against G&P in 1998. She called them 'sloppy', 'unprepared', etc. I would love to skate like that while being unprepared.
G&P were so different from the classical Russian ice dancers that perhaps it was hard for some people to accept that style. K&P were great technicians but it wasn't until they were challenged by Duschenays in 1990 and 1991 that they looked for a more emotional approach to ice dancing and then they became truly great. G&P challenged themselves throughout their career. Even in 1992 while the classical style was popular, they skated to a different kind of music. It would have been interesting if K&P had competed in 1994. Surely that would have been the strongest ice dance field ever.
The biggest tragedy for G&P was that they split after their second OGM. The fans were robbed of what could have been some of the greatest ice dances.
- Rep Power
I dont understand the hating G&P would get for beating T&D in Lillehammer anyway since T&D were a very distant 3rd. They wouldnt have won even without G&P. So it is not like T&D were kept from the gold medal by G&P. Maybe it is them beating both sentimental favorites after all the tough losses and it being their turn- Usova & Zhulin, and the very popular and greatest ever Torvill & Dean as well, and knocking both down the podium, when it wasnt supposed to be their turn yet.
My thoughts exactly.
Originally Posted by chanunderrated
I ask myself if U/Z would have received the same resentment if they had beaten T/D. Maybe there was something like an it's-not-yet-their-turn to the disapproval of G/P's gold; but at the same time I wonder why T/D, when they announced their comeback, were not criticized for reducing the chances of winning for those who's "turn" it actually was. They had had their "turn" already. Then again, no comebacker was ever accused of taking the chances from the up-coming-ones (or were there?).
I was never a huge G/P fan, but their programs and their personalities have grown on me a lot over the years.
I agree with the statement by Cherub721 that the press G/P got was as nasty as could be. There are still youtube comments on on their (and T/D's) '94 programs telling them to "give back" their "stolen" gold medals to T/D...
From all I came to read, I think that Oksana is in fact a nice person.
- Rep Power
Boitano took alot of heat from other U.S men for taking their chances away, and even some U.S media chimed in that. He didnt end up even winning a single competition, and he took the Olympic spot not from Eldredge or Mitchell who both poo pooed themselves totally at Nationals that year, but Aren Nielsen who was on nobodys radar to make the team and seemed overjoyed with his bronze at Nationals, yet people still whined in NA about what he took away from those whose turn it was. I guess the American and European mentality is different.
However yes by the stupid your turn logic, it was even less T&D's turn as G&P's at that point. They probably could have easily won in 88 had they continued but chose not to, so 94 was way into the future for them. G&P were not even certain to go to 98, even if they didnt win, and you couldnt say in 94 they were even certain to still be on top in 98, so it was definitely more their turn than T&D, although I dont think that should have anything to do with results either way anyway. It was truly U&Z's turn but their careers were full of bad luck, and usually just missing, and their FD was probably just not worthy of a gold medal that year, but if they had won I suspect it would have been a much more popular win than G&P, even if T&D had been 2nd on a close split behind them, and G&P only 3rd. I just think people wanted one of U&Z or T&D to win, and not G&P. Even Rahkammo & Kokko would have been a more popular winner as people always loved them, although that was never going to happen.
From what I remember, two persons contributed the most to the continuous public-perception campaign against Grishuk and Platov from 1994 onward: Christopher Dean and Tracy Wilson. I saw a couple of TV interviews in which Dean openly said he and Jayne should have won and Grishuk/Platov did not deserve the OGM. He was and is a prominent figure in English-speaking figure skating circle and his opinion, although inevitably seems self-serving, was taken seriously in North America and remained the dominant narrative for years. Wilson, thanks to her position as the main US TV commentator for ice dance, minimized Grishuk and Platov at pretty much every televised major competition until 1998. I can't remember whether it was NBC or ABC that did the fluff pieces, but basically they did not let any opportunity pass by without suggesting that Grishuk was crazy/a slut/emotionally disturbed and Platov couldn't stand up on ice.
Thanks for all the details and how they should have placed.
Originally Posted by gk_891
Originally Posted by Jun Y
But the thing is that their falls in competition and their undefeated record made people very angry at them and the whole of ice dance as well. They could fall and still win and be undefeated. This was in all the articles too. Grishuk and Platov had a ready made line that made people angry too. They fell because they were so much better and do so much harder things! This surely made Canadian uber Wilson very upset.
Last edited by caseyedwards; 05-03-2013 at 11:12 PM.
^ Which is funny because that's now the argument some now use to justify a controversial result under COP.
What I don't understand with the argument about G/P winning with falls is I remember only four, not counting 1992 worlds FD - given the difficulty of their dances, it's not that much. One of them resulting in their only second place portion placement ever after 1994 : 1998 Euros OD. Even without the fall, I find K/O better anyway, but it was a close call (at the Olympics I mean), K/O have the perfect jive OD style-wise while G/P have their amazing speed and tricks. Even on presentation, it's hard to rank them. The other three are moot points :
Originally Posted by caseyedwards
- 1994 world FD, hard not to place 1st the newly crowned olympic champions in a field lacking of both the other olympic medalist. Even if I can see a point to place either R/K or M/L first, it would have been a very controversial outcome because G/P were still IMO easily the better dancers overall.
- 1997 Lalique Trophy FD. Maybe the most controversial but what's the point for canadians here ? G/P technical base mark was way higher than A/P's anyway. Memorial is such a difficult FD to perform cleanly, not surprising they weren't, it was only the first time they performed it competitively. And their speed can make the difference by itself.
- 1998 GPF OD. I guess this one really annoyed north american medias. Still, no way B/K could be 1st with their very bad (to be kind) program. I rewatched quickly the CDs marks at this competition and I was very surprised to see it was a 4/3 split over the canadians. Are you serious guys ? I should rewatch the dances too, 'cos if G/P did not make any mistake, it's really showing how much lobbying some were at that time. When you see who put B/K first, it's pretty clear though CAN/JAP/USA. GER puts B/K second and RUS/ITA/FRA third.
Overall even with their falls, G/P did not really rob any medals to anybody. Specially not to B/K who were lucky to be on the podium at 96/98/99 worlds. As for winning while having mistake, do you remember the 97 GPF in Canada when B/K won in spite of a visible error over K/O amazing Masquerade Waltz in their homeland ?
The most hilarious thing is the canadian judges marks at 97 worlds. 1st places for all the sections awarded to... B/K. I hope he was suspended. This study is very interesting : http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archi...es/natbias.htm, it shows at 98 Olys & worlds the russians judges were the most fair placing their skaters (maybe because you don't have to cheat when your skaters are obvioulsy the best) while Canada was the fourth most biased ranked country, virtually on par with the two countries slightly in front of them : CHN/JAP.
I like also the evils block judging theories while you could argue almost the same with USA/CAN/GER/JAP judge's placements. They were often very close in their rankings order, specially when it comes to B/K.
Back to G/P career, even if almost all had been said already. I loved most of their programs. I have to say I don't remember the ones from 1991 though. Exceptions are their 93 and 96 OD. 1993 ODs were all very lacklusters anyway for me. In 1996 I enjoyed more K/O's one. I remember being astonished by their 93 & 94 FD, thinking they were the clear winners of both 93 & 94 worlds and olympic titles. Though I was pretty uneducated in skating at that time I did not really change my point of view since then. T/D & U/Z's 94 FD still bore me to death.
Surprisingly I even like their 96 FD despite the very distracting outfits. The one they wore at 95 Skate America & Lalique Trophy were so much better, you can really apreciate the dance more. I don't understand why they changed them.
On the other hand I'm not as found of their 97 FD as everybody still seems to be, even though I like quite a lot I much prefer Memorial, for me it's their signature piece. So powerfull. Libertango is the true masterpiece they produced that year.
Here is their 1991 FD: http://youtu.be/pVS5uFLGtgU
Originally Posted by Nours
and 1991 OD: http://youtu.be/1zm21kQp1ME
ITA about Libertango. The first time I saw it-which was actually years after they performed it, I was absolutely mesmerized and blown away by that routine.
A funny observation is related to how well Platov did coaching the Kerrs, a brother-sister team. Grishuk and Platov had zero sexual chemistry with each other, and their competitive programs wisely avoided romantic themes. Their sentimental exhibition programs always left me cringing. In some sense, they were a pseudo-brother-sister team.
This is why I suspect Platov could be the perfect coach for the Shibutanis.
Last edited by Jun Y; 05-04-2013 at 02:39 AM.
Yes! I haven't put much thought in it, but yes, Platov could be a fantastic coach for Maia & Alex.
Better late than never, videos from G&P's career:
(not by any means exhaustive, but hopefully a good overview of G&P's career. ). One thing I noticed, is that even in the earliest routines, when they were the Soviet/Russian #3 team, commentators still noted the difficulty of their dances. Maybe it was their age and their relative 'rawness' as a team, but I thought they did a fantastic job of pulling off blues music.
1990 OSP (European Championship): http://youtu.be/ccaKs47AXZQ
1990 FD-Zorbra the Greek (Worlds): http://youtu.be/LVFGuJCXECA
1991 OD (Worlds): http://youtu.be/1zm21kQp1ME
1991 FD (Worlds): http://youtu.be/pVS5uFLGtgU
1992 CD (Olympics):http://youtu.be/x_tGYUo0nro & 1992 CD II (Olympics): http://youtu.be/nbPk3-NWIG0
1992 OD (Worlds): http://youtu.be/LN4plbOTmVQ
1992 FD (Olympics): http://youtu.be/BRlNzp_V35A
1992 EX (Olympics): http://youtu.be/M_0ImXXuzIM
1993 OD (Worlds): http://youtu.be/U8ULUUtRCPA
1993 FD (Worlds): http://youtu.be/RKHVqOz9x0A
1994 CD (Blues): http://youtu.be/4SQL84Yusjk
1994 CD (Starlight Waltz): http://youtu.be/acFlGbz33yE
1994 OD (Olympics): http://youtu.be/BDYc8lWDDis
1994 FD (Olympics): http://youtu.be/27cZ4wx8470
1994 EX (Olympics): http://youtu.be/dUdP1356OSo
1995 OD (Worlds): http://youtu.be/uE_9XOe72B0
1995 FD (Worlds): http://youtu.be/IdGgAY1-hng
1995 EX (Worlds): http://youtu.be/PJDKqWKhgfI
1996 OD (Worlds): http://youtu.be/n6pzcrctcks
1996 FD (Worlds): http://youtu.be/FrpC9QEXAZs
1997 OD (Worlds): http://youtu.be/kRxA76J09T8
1997 FD (Euros): http://youtu.be/i5zK32mEFfk
Ex (Frozen): http://youtu.be/oQ-vkRWh90c
1998 OD (Olympics): http://youtu.be/XD0UKQ4TG8A
1998 FD (Olympics): http://youtu.be/KXNmarKjyiY
1998 EX (You'll See): Olympics: http://youtu.be/UOuxoDh5Svo
2006 G&P reunited: http://youtu.be/RFA5hMIfU40
They were one of the greatest pair ever...
Originally Posted by lulu
I like their You'll See Ex, but I think they spend too much time on the ice in the Frozen Ex..
I strongly disagree, thinking of their blues OD and FD, Libertango, The Feeling Begins, and Frozen. IMO they had excellent sexual chemistry. It was not the K&P type of romantic love chemistry, more like it seemed as if any moment they could rip off their clothes and have hatesex, IMO.
Originally Posted by Jun Y
Originally Posted by Cherub721
Especially "You'll see". It was a very intense exhibition.
Originally Posted by Cherub721
Maybe I just came into ice dancing fandom during the height of Anissina/Peizerat and in comparison, I found G/P to be relatively sexless with one another. Not to say Grishuk didn't exude some sort of sex appeal and that Platov was unattractive, but for some reason they really gave out a vibe that wasn't quite brother/sister but wasn't quite sexy, and it certainly wasn't romantic.
I think it really is Platov though because even though I think he is a handsome man, he just doesn't exude that kind of heat, and yet I found Grishuk and Zhulin to generate a sort of steaminess.
That said, their Libertango was HAWT. There are always exceptions.