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  1. #41
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    I don't find that they gave off any sexiness. It seemed like they didn't like each other, which, from what I've heard, was true. There were a lot of attempts at artificial chemistry, but they didn't really work. It didn't matter too much though since they were so talented on the blades. I re-watched some of the old programs and I think '97 was probably their best year. Libertango was just immaculate. The OD from '96 was amazing too.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jun Y View Post
    From what I remember, two persons contributed the most to the continuous public-perception campaign against Grishuk and Platov from 1994 onward: Christopher Dean and Tracy Wilson. I saw a couple of TV interviews in which Dean openly said he and Jayne should have won and Grishuk/Platov did not deserve the OGM. He was and is a prominent figure in English-speaking figure skating circle and his opinion, although inevitably seems self-serving, was taken seriously in North America and remained the dominant narrative for years. Wilson, thanks to her position as the main US TV commentator for ice dance, minimized Grishuk and Platov at pretty much every televised major competition until 1998. I can't remember whether it was NBC or ABC that did the fluff pieces, but basically they did not let any opportunity pass by without suggesting that Grishuk was crazy/a slut/emotionally disturbed and Platov couldn't stand up on ice.
    Are there any interviews (written or recorded) with him saying such things? At that time, I tried to get hold of every magazine and every TV show they were on, but this has to be the most outrageous statement I've ever heard on that competition (saying of his competitors that they didn't deserve what they had been given is simply blunt and bad sportsmanship). Of course he's always been a person with some iinfluence ever since he and Torvill won the '84 Olympics, but as he himself took part in that '94 competition, his analysis could have been only a very subjective one, as everyone involved in FS would have known.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jun Y View Post
    A funny observation is related to how well Platov did coaching the Kerrs, a brother-sister team. Grishuk and Platov had zero sexual chemistry with each other, and their competitive programs wisely avoided romantic themes. Their sentimental exhibition programs always left me cringing. In some sense, they were a pseudo-brother-sister team.

    This is why I suspect Platov could be the perfect coach for the Shibutanis.
    Evgeny has been praised for his abilities as a coach many times, I remember expecially the Kerrs (because I like them so much), and I'm sure he'd be a good coach for the Shibutanis as well.
    As for the chemistry on ice - I have always loved couples/pairs and from a later point ice dancing has grown on me. I think that "romantic" chemistry is vastly overrated as a contribution to any program. Couples in both pairs and ice dancing can choose from a variety of roles to play. Of course, the great romantic couples like Romeo and Juliet have always been and will always remain a source of inspiration, but there is more to partnership than romance. There were, for sure, couples who did profit from their loving relationship, in a way that it made them stronger mentally as well as a unit on the ice (K/P evidently - but I think they were technically so outstanding that it would have worked out anyways; and DenStas maybe, as it shows in their later programs), but the many couples who were/are not romantically involved and did just as well or even better is remakable (T/D foremost, and, of course, G/P, A/P, and a line of successful bother-sister-teams, the Duchesnays to begin with, Kerrs, Shibutanis, Zaretzkis...). G/P were neither lovers nor brother and sister. Good actors can fake lovers and won't be hurt, but lovers, once split, can't fake that everything is still well (see U/Z, miserably). Wasn't it Dean who once said that it is better not to be married on the ice? Yes.

    I don't think that G/P couldn't stand each other. Being not romantically involved doens't mean they abhorred each other. It would have been much too hard to work together in a very physical way for years on end if they had disliked each other.
    Last edited by Shyjosie; 05-04-2013 at 09:30 PM.

  3. #43
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    I do remember thinking Grishuk and Platov were "evil" since Canadian television (I guess Tracy Wilson) kind of portrayed them that way. Granted, Pasha was an.. interesting.. character, but that doesn't change that they were good on ice.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shyjosie View Post
    Are there any interviews (written or recorded) with him saying such things?
    I remember seeing TV interviews with Dean in which he put forth his point not so subtly, but maybe not in those words "they did not deserve OGM." It's been many years and I cannot remember the word-for-word quotes. Don't remember reading any print interview though because I don't routinely read print articles about skating.

    As for the chemistry on ice - I have always loved couples/pairs and from a later point ice dancing has grown on me. I think that "romantic" chemistry is vastly overrated as a contribution to any program. Couples in both pairs and ice dancing can choose from a variety of roles to play...

    I don't think that G/P couldn't stand each other. Being not romantically involved doens't mean they abhorred each other. It would have been much too hard to work together in a very physical way for years on end if they had disliked each other.
    I don't think the issue is whether they like or were attracted to each other off the ice. Grishuk and Platov just did not have any sexual chemistry with each other in their performance. I agree with a previous poster that Platov might be more responsible for the impression --- he was an excellent partner but his temperament is such that he just can't do the steamy stuff with conviction, and perhaps less with Grishuk. Don't get me wrong, I love Platov and have heard he is a lovely person, but <shrug> he just can't do it like Ponomarenko or Peizerat ...

    Ice dancing traditionally has a lot (!) of simulated love making. The emotional intimacy and sexual chemistry between partners can be a powerful performance element in the sport, far more than single skating or pairs. Some teams have more of it (many of them not married to each other), some have less. They don't have to be married or have a romantic relationship with each other to project a sense of romantic steaminess to the audience.

    Whether the degree of sexual chemistry between partners is something quantifiable or should be a part of the judging criteria ... that's another matter. I don't know about the 6.0 era, but certainly under IJS such chemistry is a far, far less a factor, even subconsciously.
    Last edited by Jun Y; 05-05-2013 at 02:26 AM.

  5. #45

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    It's not just about sexual chemistry, but just chemistry in general. Look at the Duschenays. Their dances were not romantic at all, but they were still able to project a special connection between two partners who really knew and interacted with one another as if it was second nature.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    It's not just about sexual chemistry, but just chemistry in general. Look at the Duschenays. Their dances were not romantic at all, but they were still able to project a special connection between two partners who really knew and interacted with one another as if it was second nature.
    I think this is part of the nature of being siblings - the Duchesnay's let no doubt that they deeply trusted each other, they were supportive and protective of each other. Plus, their looks helped them a lot to convey even the "steamy stuff" of ice dancing - I think Paul, as he looked and could express characters, was the one of the best actors on ice, and Isabelle's looks and temper matched him perfectly. Siblings will never divorce, they'll remain close relatives forever, on and off the ice. It's not easy, but obviously managable, to make the best of a close relationship that doesn't allow any hints of romance in a sport that is highly romantically suggestive.

    Of course "chemistry", as Jun Y explained, as such must ineveitably be there to make a team work. If it's there, it affects the people involved on and off the ice. It needn't neccessarily be romantic love, but may. We may ask what's first with the most successful romantic couples: the affection for each other, that lead to working together, or the working together on the ice that maybe resulted in an off-ice relationship.

    As for Evgeny - maybe I haven't yet watched enough of his and Oksana's performances, but I can't see that his expression, his temper or his ability to play the roles he was given were any inferior to, say, Zhulin's. Had G/P tried more romantic roles, I stongly guess that they would have been able to portray lovers.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    I do remember thinking Grishuk and Platov were "evil" since Canadian television (I guess Tracy Wilson) kind of portrayed them that way. Granted, Pasha was an.. interesting.. character, but that doesn't change that they were good on ice.
    Tracy is usually a good commentator but she really trashed G&P during the 1998 Olympics while working as a commentator. Oksana/Pasha was upset about the negative reporting against them, after they won the OGM (deservedly so, IMO).

  8. #48
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    I think Pasha was a fan of laying on the ice excessively for some reason. I noticed her routines with Zhulin also included a lot of laying or sliding on the ice, while Platov's routines with Usova didn't include much of that.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    I don't find that they gave off any sexiness. It seemed like they didn't like each other, which, from what I've heard, was true. There were a lot of attempts at artificial chemistry, but they didn't really work. It didn't matter too much though since they were so talented on the blades. I re-watched some of the old programs and I think '97 was probably their best year. Libertango was just immaculate. The OD from '96 was amazing too.
    Platov beat Pasha according to her interviews so maybe that is why she seemed to not like him.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by poirierpaul View Post
    Platov beat Pasha according to her interviews so maybe that is why she seemed to not like him.
    I don't believe her for a second although I'd believe him if he claimed that Pasha hit him.

  11. #51
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    So I guess his really nice guy image might be a facade of sorts.

  12. #52
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    The pharmacy blond hair might have helped Grishuk project the image of a sex bomb to some extent but I never found her particularly sexy or sensual on the ice. Just a personal perception, of course.
    It's unbelievable she and Platov could work so extraordinarily well together for such a long time although they probably never really liked each other.

  13. #53

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    I don't see any reason for sexiness to be a part of ice dance. I have no problem with G&P not projecting that. Actually I prefer that ice dancers don't try hard to create that impression. So I have no problem with brother & sister teams. There are different kinds of human relationships and they all are important. I prefer pure skating where skating skills are the most important thing, not drama. It's not ice theater. JMO.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by lulu View Post
    Here is their 1991 FD: http://youtu.be/pVS5uFLGtgU
    and 1991 OD: http://youtu.be/1zm21kQp1ME
    .
    A bit late but thank you ! These are probably my two least favorites G/P programs though I can't say they are bad programs.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I don't see any reason for sexiness to be a part of ice dance. I have no problem with G&P not projecting that. Actually I prefer that ice dancers don't try hard to create that impression. So I have no problem with brother & sister teams. There are different kinds of human relationships and they all are important. I prefer pure skating where skating skills are the most important thing, not drama. It's not ice theater. JMO.
    ITA. But I must admit I like a bit of drama here and there, since drama doesn't neccessarily mean romance, let alone sexual implications. Drama can include any role a program might hold for a skater.

    I think we need to distinguish between a) romance b) sensuality c) sexiness . All this can be included in a program, or maybe one skater alone may convey all of them at once. There are couples who for good reason avoid any hint of romance - especially the brother-sister-teams - but may appear truely sensual. IMO, there was some sesuality in G/P's programs, but very sublime.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shyjosie View Post
    ITA. But I must admit I like a bit of drama here and there, since drama doesn't neccessarily mean romance, let alone sexual implications. Drama can include any role a program might hold for a skater.

    I think we need to distinguish between a) romance b) sensuality c) sexiness . All this can be included in a program, or maybe one skater alone may convey all of them at once. There are couples who for good reason avoid any hint of romance - especially the brother-sister-teams - but may appear truely sensual. IMO, there was some sesuality in G/P's programs, but very sublime.
    I am fine with drama, and even romance & sensuality at times. I just don't want it to be the defining factor for ice dance. There can be a lot of drama without it. For example, the Duschenays 'Missing' had tons of it, without the sensuality. Krylova-Ovssianikov's Masquerade Waltz had a lot of drama, without the romance/sensuality/sexiness. Sometimes - not always- too much sexiness can appear 'cheap' or vulgar if not choreographed with care. A great example of sensuality & beauty are the pro routines of Annenko & Sretenski.

  17. #57
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    Absolutely, coudln't have put it better. I didn't mean to contradict - I meant to say that drama adds to certain routines (you mentioned "Missing", best example IMO), but of course should not replace real skating skills. Totally agree about cheap sexyness, it kills the beauty of the sport.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by poirierpaul View Post
    Platov beat Pasha according to her interviews so maybe that is why she seemed to not like him.
    Did they ever live together? I actually heard the opposite, that Pasha verbally abused and slapped him around. I also saw an interview with Usova, just last night actually, during which she stated that Zhulin slapped her around. Zhulin was interviewed too and didn't exactly deny it. It was on youtube but I'm too lazy to go find the link lol, it was after the great Partner Swap in 1998-99. I would believe that Zhulin was abusive to Maya as it didn't seem that he treated her very well emotionally, what with fooling around with Pasha behind her back. Plus he seems like kind of a jerk, while Pasha seemed like the jerkier (crazier? some of those tortured facial expressions after the programs and in the K&C make her seem less than sane) one between her and Platov.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    I think Pasha was a fan of laying on the ice excessively for some reason. I noticed her routines with Zhulin also included a lot of laying or sliding on the ice, while Platov's routines with Usova didn't include much of that.
    I humbly dispute this. I found that Grishuk/Platov always gave the audience their money's worth. I sat in the first row at Harvard the first time Usova/Platov skated publicly and saw this piece of garbage.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FarSQOFgtg4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nours View Post
    A bit late but thank you ! These are probably my two least favorites G/P programs though I can't say they are bad programs.
    You are very welcome! Out of all of their programs from 1990-1993, their 1991 FD is my least favorite FD from that period. But, I thought their other three free dances from that period were excellent. Watching G&P's routines, I was surprised by just how much I really enjoyed their earlier routines. I did like their blues OD that year though, but then again, I've enjoyed all of G&P's blues routines, be it their 1991 OD, 1993 FD, or 1994 CD. A bit fun to compare G&P's 1991 Blues OD to U&Z's (Summertime ) and K&P's, since, IIRC, they were all still being coached by Dubova at that time.

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