View Poll Results: Kim Yu-Na - the greatest of all time if she wins 2014 Olympics & Worlds?

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  • Yes

    50 52.63%
  • No

    43 45.26%
  • Don't Know

    2 2.11%
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  1. #61
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    One thing cannot be argued I believe and thats Kwans consistency. I don't think GP events really mean anything in the grand scheme of things. Witt, Manley, Thomas etc rarely competed in them anyway. The first GP event wasn't until 1973 with Skate Canada, and the GP final in 1996. When Kim came along both of these events had been around for at least 10 years, so comparing GP's doesn't really hold merit against the older skaters. I don't think we can truly place Kims final legacy until she retires (which is presumably after Sochi).

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Although it's true that Kwan never won the Olympic gold, one could argue that 1998 was not really due to any fault of her own (other than maybe not planning a 3/3) but due to not getting 2 more judges on her side in 1998. It's not as if she had a performance like 2002 where she fell on a major element. Now, you can argue that clearly shows Kwan's best was not good enough to win the Olympics, but you can counter that with saying that there isn't a clear consensus that she should have loss as people still debate about it.

    As for Kwan not winning much outside of North America, a lot of it was due to her not competing much outside of North America after the 1998-1999 season. Who knows if she could have won a few of the European GP events had she been there. She had dominated the European GPs she competed in before the 1997-1998 season.

    Granted, she lost at Worlds in Europe 4 times in career since becoming a top skater: 1997 in Lausanne (though she had won the LP in the same split that she lost the Olympics to Tara), 1999 in Helsinki, 2004 in Dortmund (though garnering the most 6.0s in the LP but I guess the judges felt sorry for her), and 2005 in Moscow. But her record of winning Worlds 50% of the time since she became World Champion is a pretty great record no matter where she competed. Yu Na Kim in comparison, has won 2 Worlds out of 6 attempts, although I don't think measuring number of titles is the only way to measure one's legacy or should be taken by itself without considering many other factors.

    Anyway, these types of quantifications are difficult and don't make much sense anyway.
    What a way to twist facts! Drop Kwan's first two Worlds (94/95) to make her stats look much better than Kim's! For the record, she won 5 out of 12 attempts, a lot closer to Kim's 1/3. How about this, Yuna is 1/1 for Olympic gold while Kwan was 0 for 2? In less than a year she could even be 2/2 for Olympic gold!

    This is silly. Medal counts are only part of the consideration. The competition one faces, the demands of the sport, the pressure one faces, the trials/difficulties one encounters, these too, are factors. Yuna came from South Korea, not from a country with a long line of great skaters like Michelle. South Korea had no true figure skating rinks, no world-class trainers/coaches, and a federation who provided very little financial/political support. Yuna competed under the exacting, rigorous demands of IJS/CoP, not 6.0. She faced just as tough if not tougher competition in the likes of Mao Asada, Miki Ando, and Carolina Kostner. She faced pressured like no other from her country--being the overwhelming favorite to win the OGM--which she did with the Skate of Her Life. (Only Midori Ito at the 1992 Olympics could compare.)

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustafinabars View Post
    Kim has never had meltdowns on par with Kwan's 97 Nationals and 97 GPF competitions even at her worst.
    You don't consider Yu-Na's LP performance at 2007 Worlds, LP performance at the 2009 Skate America, and SP performance at 2010 Worlds as bad meltdowns? She actually lost to Rachael Flatt in the LP phase of the 2009 Skate America. She finished in 7th place in the SP at 2010 Worlds, missing the final group of the LP. She dropped from 1st after the SP to 4th in the LP at 2007 Worlds, and took bronze.

    Kwan has skated more clean programs than Yu-Na; I do know that for a fact.

    It is silly to compare Kwan and Kim though. They never competed against one another and they are from two very different generations and judging systems. I believe had Yu-Na ever competed against Tara and Michelle, she would have been penalized or viewed unfavorably by judges for not attempting the 3loop while the other two attempted the full arsenal of triples minus the Axel. You didn't see many top ladies under the 6.0 system omit one or two of the basic 5 triples that ladies are known to do the way you see happen under COP. Rochette was definitely the exception to the rule. On the same token, Tara and Michelle's spins would never have received the required levels needed to be competitive against Yu-Na and the others in the COP system.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 05-06-2013 at 06:13 AM.

  4. #64
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    Isn't this the second poll in several months!

    I am getting beaten down to where I will vote yes to make the question go away.

    I of course voted no!
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 05-06-2013 at 07:17 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    This is the second poll in several months!

    I am getting beaten down to where I will vote yes to make this question go away.

    I of course voted no!
    Of course you voted no. Because you're a Maobot. Nice try for being bias.

    Assuming Yuna will win more World titles and OGM, I bet she will never be the greatest in your eyes and others.

    I'm just happy that she proved to her haters that she can still win a major title after being absence for almost 2 years without a high profile coach, without a strong fed while kicking some as*. I can't stop laughing @ you and her haters when she won in Canada. It must be hard to swallow.

    As for this poll, I did not even vote. Because there's no such thing as the greatest.
    Last edited by riveredge; 05-06-2013 at 07:10 AM.

  6. #66
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    One big difference between Kwan and Kim is a clean Kim is unbeatable. In fact even a good Kim is unbeatable, not just a clean one. She has to skate really awful to lose, like she did in the last 4 Worlds she lost. Kwan can skate very well, even cleanly sometimes, and still potentially lose to any of Lipinski, Cohen, Slutskaya, Chen, Butyrskaya, but Kim cannot skate even decently and lose ever since she is too good to not be given the win unless she bombs.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Although it's true that Kwan never won the Olympic gold, one could argue that 1998 was not really due to any fault of her own (other than maybe not planning a 3/3) but due to not getting 2 more judges on her side in 1998. It's not as if she had a performance like 2002 where she fell on a major element. Now, you can argue that clearly shows Kwan's best was not good enough to win the Olympics, but you can counter that with saying that there isn't a clear consensus that she should have loss as people still debate about it.
    Kim from Vancouver would have crushed both Kwan and Lipinski from Nagano so who cares about debates of who should have won there in a comparision to Kim. The amazing thing is Lipinski and Kwan still might be the 2nd and 3rd best Olympic performances ever, which just shows the huge margin by which Kim is best.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by poirierpaul View Post
    One big difference between Kwan and Kim is a clean Kim is unbeatable. In fact even a good Kim is unbeatable, not just a clean one. She has to skate really awful to lose, like she did in the last 4 Worlds she lost. Kwan can skate very well, even cleanly sometimes, and still potentially lose to any of Lipinski, Cohen, Slutskaya, Chen, Butyrskaya, but Kim cannot skate even decently and lose ever since she is too good to not be given the win unless she bombs.
    Yes but under COP. Under 6.0 clean programs with a complete arsenal of triples were both very important. Also, as Query5 pointed out, the way 6.0 was structured made it so that someone who bombed the short could ruin their chances at a title. Skaters had to place in the top 3 in the sp to control their own destiny. Based on those rules alone, Yuna already loses 2 of her world medals (08 and 010)

    Quote Originally Posted by poirierpaul View Post
    Kim from Vancouver would have crushed both Kwan and Lipinski from Nagano so who cares about debates of who should have won there in a comparision to Kim. The amazing thing is Lipinski and Kwan still might be the 2nd and 3rd best Olympic performances ever, which just shows the huge margin by which Kim is best.
    And it also shows the huge margin by which Dorothy Hamill was "best" compared to Henie despite having no triples and Henie having 3 Olympic golds.
    Oh wait...

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by maladiegrande View Post
    Yes but under COP. Under 6.0 clean programs with a complete arsenal of triples were both very important. Also, as Query5 pointed out, the way 6.0 was structured made it so that someone who bombed the short could ruin their chances at a title. Skaters had to place in the top 3 in the sp to control their own destiny. Based on those rules alone, Yuna already loses 2 of her world medals (08 and 010)
    I dont see your point. I am not speaking about when Kwan skates badly which you seem to be referring. I am pointing out has the possability to skate very well, sometimes even mistake fre, and still lose to numerous skaters. Kim cant ever skate somewhat decent and lose. Just look at the events she lost and you will see my point.


    And it also shows the huge margin by which Dorothy Hamill was "best" compared to Henie despite having no triples and Henie having 3 Olympic golds.
    Oh wait...
    Hamill IS a way better skater than Henie. It is pretty well known Henie wasnt even the top skater of her own era, and relied on corrupt judging and a rich father who bought out her wins. Cecelia Colledge, Madge Syers, even Maribel Vinson, all added way more to womens skating than Henie did.

    Anyway your point is moot as Hamill and Henie are a half century apart.

  10. #70
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    Kim also doesnt lose a medal at the 2008 and 2010 Worlds as you claimed. You can place 5th or even 7th in the short and if you skate the best long, and she was judged to have the best long both times, you will still medal. Even 2010 if she were placed say 7th in the short and 2nd (instead of 1st under COP) in the long, with the way the event folded out there is a good chance she would have still been 2nd overall or atleast 3rd. Your point only applies to the gold medal, and Kim didnt win the gold medal either time, so again your point is no point.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by poirierpaul View Post
    I dont see your point. I am not speaking about when Kwan skates badly which you seem to be referring. I am pointing out has the possability to skate very well, sometimes even mistake fre, and still lose to numerous skaters. Kim cant ever skate somewhat decent and lose. Just look at the events she lost and you will see my point.
    For some reason I thought you were theoretically comparing Kwan and Kim under 6.0...lol

    Hamill IS a way better skater than Henie. It is pretty well known Henie wasnt even the top skater of her own era, and relied on corrupt judging and a rich father who bought out her wins. Cecelia Colledge, Madge Syers, even Maribel Vinson, all added way more to womens skating than Henie did.

    Anyway your point is moot as Hamill and Henie are a half century apart.
    I was being ironic in my post. And you know I just chose a random old skater right? I could have chosen any number of Olympic-World champions who are an era away from Henie or any of the "most-decorated lot". My point was it's a given that a skater from a later generation (as early as a decade away) will be far more technically proficient since that's how sports work. You said my point was moot because they're a "half century apart"...but you missed my point exactly

  12. #72
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    2010 and 1998 is not THAT different. Heck some of the exact same skaters who were around in 1998 still are in 2010 (Plushenko, Suguri, etc...) You are blind comparing 50 years apart to just about 10 and making it out to be the same thing. The only big difference is COP demands, but even under 6.0 Kim would easily beat Tara. The only reason Tara could beat Michelle is Michelle is a slow skater which contrasts to Tara's speed, and Tara's very hard 3-3 combos vs Michelle not doing any at that particular event, despite that Michelle is better in every other way. However Kim did as many or more hard combinations as Tara there, has way bigger and higher quality jumps with better technique, stronger in all other elements than Tara, stronger presentation than Tara, and is just as fast, so it would be a blowout between the two under either 6.0 or COP. When people say Kim's Olympic performance is by far the best ever for a women they are considering the time frame. People still call Boitano's the best Olympic performance ever by a man, despite that it would be crushed in a head to head by Yagudin of 2002 and even Plushenko of 2006 if we make no considerations to the time frame.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by poirierpaul View Post
    2010 and 1998 is not THAT different. Heck some of the exact same skaters who were around in 1998 still are in 2010 (Plushenko, Suguri, etc...) You are blind comparing 50 years apart to just about 10 and making it out to be the same thing. The only big difference is COP demands, but even under 6.0 Kim would easily beat Tara.
    When exactly did I say 10 vs 50 years was the same thing? "Would you please stop to tell a lie", P?.
    My repeated comments about not comparing skaters from different eras was NOT made in regards to Kwan vs Kim, to begin with, I never put Kwan ahead of Kim in terms of overall rankings, in earlier pages I was responding to specific claims about their skating and I was doing the same on this page. On the other hand, my statements about comparing skaters from different ages had to do with people dismissing earlier skaters when they declared Kim as the greatest of all time.

    I quote myself:

    it's one thing to compare the difficulty of two consecutive eras like Kwan and Kim's, how the hell are you going to use those same standards to compare eras much further removed? Basically, if you make the mistake of judging one era by another's technical standards, you risk going on a slippery slope.

  14. #74
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    Well my comments were just about who should have won the Olympics between Kwan and Lipinski really means nothing as Kim from 2010 would beat both, and yes they are easily close enough in time to compare. Hardly a comment that degrades every skater in history, or implies any of the BS nonsense you are implying. You are quite a pain in the ass, welcome to my ignore list.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by poirierpaul View Post
    Well my comments were just about who should have won the Olympics between Kwan and Lipinski really means nothing as Kim from 2010 would beat both, and yes they are easily close enough in time to compare. Hardly a comment that degrades every skater in history, or implies any of the BS nonsense you are implying. You are quite a pain in the ass, welcome to my ignore list.
    Drama queen alert.

    My post never implied that you were degrading "every skater in history" by declaring that Yuna would've beaten Tara and Michelle. I was objecting to the idea of claiming Yuna as the unrefuted "greatest of all time" by dismissing the older champions (especially those decades removed from current competition). That's why I even brought up older skaters like Henie, Hamill, Heiss. If you read my earlier posts I made it clear I don't think Kwan even deserves to be placed above Kim in the overall rankings. I had simply misinterpreted your first post as comparing them theoretically under 6.0

  16. #76

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    Ten years is a big difference in terms of developing one's skating. Let's see, when Michelle Kwan made her World Championship debut in 1994, Kim was four years old. Let's not forget training and developing for 6.0 v. COP and what elements are more emphasized. Let's also talk about the top skaters in an era set the standard for which new skaters have to beat. I'm sure Kwan's artistry and consistent level of skating 7-triple programs along with the likes of Tara, Irina, and Tonya and Midori before them gave coaches a sort of direction as to how to develop their skaters to make them competitive. Of course, none of that makes a difference, right?

    Skating has changed substantially. That's like comparing the difficulty of gymnastics in 1996 to that of 2008, and saying that obviously Shawn Johnson is better than the likes of Shannon Miller and Lilia Podkopayeva. If any gym fan said that, you'd get a huge push-back from many fans in the sport.

    Anyway, I'm just saying that you have to look at the sport in the context of their era because otherwise, young skaters will always have an advantage over older ones who may have help established the sport to what it is today.

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by poirierpaul View Post
    Kim from Vancouver would have crushed both Kwan and Lipinski from Nagano so who cares about debates of who should have won there in a comparision to Kim. The amazing thing is Lipinski and Kwan still might be the 2nd and 3rd best Olympic performances ever, which just shows the huge margin by which Kim is best.
    Best at the Olympics. But if Yu Na could place below Miki Ando (twice) and Carolina Kostner, there can be no doubt that Michelle could have beaten her at Worlds on more than one occasion. In fact, I would put Michelle's Red Violin LP at 2000 World's above Yu Na's Vancouver and her 2013 World's performances--7 triples vs. 6; full set of triples (except axel) vs. no 3-loop; superior artistry.
    Last edited by giselle23; 05-06-2013 at 04:21 PM.

  18. #78
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    kim Yuna didn't get second OGM yet... And why we should pick "the best" objectively?
    It is very subjective problem... For example, for me mao is the best of all time.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    Best at the Olympics. But if Yu Na could place below Miki Ando and Carolina Kostner, there can be no doubt that Michelle could have beaten her at Worlds on more than one occasion.
    Yu Na only placed below Kostner at Worlds on one occasion, and it was a scandalous result. Michelle Kwan has even lost handily to Maria Butyrskaya at Worlds, and if Maria had landed 1 more triple salchow at the 2000 Worlds would have lost to her at Worlds 2 years in a row! Maria is a poor skater, and a much worse skater than Ando and Kostner. Ando is one of the best female jumpers of all time so your dismissing her like she is nothing is funny. Michelle also lost to Kostner at Worlds, yes not in her prime but Kostner was nowhere nears her either.

    Irina Slutskaya only beat Michelle at Worlds 2 of the 7 times they met, but took judges off her at 5 of 7, and Irina has extremely weak artistry, barely ever does 3-3s, and almost never skates clean competitions. She also has a 3-2 record vs her at the Grand Prix final, and decent overall head to head. In the case you pass off Ando like she is nothing than Irina should be too, as she is essentialy the last decades version of Ando, great jumps, some other decent elements, spunk and energy, and not much else, and no polish and style. Michelle though had tons more trouble with Irina than Yu Na ever had with Miki. 14-15 year old Tara Lipinski beat Michelle 4 of 5 meetings including their lone meeting at Worlds during Tara's post 13 year old career.

    So the same you said could be said in reverse, it is obvious Yu Na would have beaten Michelle on multiple occasions at Worlds too.


    As for Kim of Vancouver vs Michelle at the 2000 Worlds, under COP Yu Na would win by over 20 points overall (both programs combined) just as she did in Vancouver. Higher base value due to the much harder combinations, much higher GOEs especialy on the jumps, and a huge short program lead. Then under 6.0 Yu Na would be 1st in the short program and Kwan (who was already only 3rd) would be 4th, and the event would already be over, so no point speculating further to how their LPs would be scored vs each other under COP.
    Last edited by poirierpaul; 05-06-2013 at 04:22 PM.

  20. #80
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    Under 6.0, Even Asada could have beaten Kwan easily. Her underrotated jumps and flutz never would have been a problem. Her 3A ,difficult 3-3, superior spins and various steps would have made her a strong champion under 6.0.
    She already proved that in 2005 senior season. She crushed Slutskaya, Arakawa, Cohen that had beaten Kwan previous and that year.

    Most of all, Asada would have been released from mental pressures worrying about executing precise jump technique.
    Last edited by johnny158; 05-06-2013 at 05:05 PM.

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