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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^ But honestly, Chan wins the prize for the most loyal, adoring, and feistily defensive-minded fans ever (perhaps Yu Na comes close as well, but still Chan surpasses). What other skaters have fans who fancy themselves as a gang?
    Yuna was the opposite.
    when Yuna receive the her major titles, she always received a standing ovation, had clean programs and overwhelming won. Even anybody can not start complaining. isn't it?

  2. #82
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    He doesnt get respect because people dont understand this system. Whether he falls or not he still has the best skating skills in the world and people dont like when he is rewarded for that. Also he can be a douche

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach View Post
    He doesnt get respect because people dont understand this system. Whether he falls or not he still has the best skating skills in the world and people dont like when he is rewarded for that.
    I think Proustable put it better:
    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    In general, the reasons that Chan isn't popular are

    a) He favours the technical over the artistic
    b) He's the apotheosis of a controversial system that many feel has robbed the sport of it's beauty
    c) The difference between his dominance (in terms of victories) and successful skates is startling
    The issue with Chan is not that skating fans do not understand the system; many people do understand it, but disagree with what it emphasizes and rewards. Since Chan is the poster boy for how to win under the IJS, he gets the most criticism. Similar comments are sometimes made about other skaters whose skating is a good fit for the current system and who have been very successful, such as Kostner (who is also often accused of doing well while skating not so well), Savchenko/Szolkowy and Davis/White. Because these skaters have had fewer high-profile controversial wins than Chan, and because they have not made the sort of comments Chan has made over the years, the criticism is perhaps milder and less frequent - but it is definitely there.
    Last edited by Zemgirl; 05-02-2013 at 03:00 PM.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post

    The issue with Chan is not that skating fans do not understand the system; many people do understand it, but disagree with what it emphasizes and rewards. Since Chan is the poster boy for how to win under the IJS, he gets the most criticism. Similar comments are sometimes made about other skaters whose skating is a good fit for the current system and who have been very successful, such as Kostner (who is also often accused of doing well while skating not so well), Savchenko/Szolkowy and Davis/White. Because these skaters have had fewer high-profile controversial wins than Chan, and because they have not made the sort of comments Chan has made over the years, the criticism is perhaps milder and less frequent - but it is definitely there.
    I can understand people not liking Chan for some of the stupid comments he has made over the years. I agree that Patrick can be very self-centered, arrogant and stubborn. But people criticizing his results is stupid. He is clearly far superior in his overall skating skills than all other male skaters and he is reward the higher points, what is wrong with that. Yes he falls ( the same as kostner ) but their vastly greater skills place their components high enough to allow them to make a few mistakes and still be placed high.

    Dont show him respect because of his comments sure. But dont show no respect because of his results

  5. #85

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    I guess people don't understand how his skating is so superior that he has like a 3-4 fall cushion over other skaters who may not have as great of skating skill as Chan, but they aren't deficient in that department either. At least, some people don't understand why people are ok with such a scoring system, even if they do understand why he has that cushion.

  6. #86
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach View Post
    I can understand people not liking Chan for some of the stupid comments he has made over the years. I agree that Patrick can be very self-centered, arrogant and stubborn. But people criticizing his results is stupid. He is clearly far superior in his overall skating skills than all other male skaters and he is reward the higher points, what is wrong with that. Yes he falls ( the same as kostner ) but their vastly greater skills place their components high enough to allow them to make a few mistakes and still be placed high.

    Dont show him respect because of his comments sure. But dont show no respect because of his results

    His skating skills are outstanding, and I don't think you'll find many people who will deny that. But skating skills only account for one out of 5 PCs. The fact that he has superior skating skills should not automatically translate into superiority in every PC category, as we have often seen in recent years, and thus skating skills themselves should not be enough to make up for several glaring mistakes in a program. I find it a shame (and that comment extends way beyond the case of Patrick Chan) that judges often seem incapable to differenciate between the different sets of skills judged, but instead prefer to keep the marks in the same ballpark for all the PCs (although there have been, of course, welcome exceptions to that)

    To give you an example, at Worlds 2012: in both SP and FS, to my eyes, only the SS mark was fairly accurately marked. Chan deserved superior SS and transitions to Takahashi, albeit by a smaller margin. On the other hand, Takahashi was vastly superior in execution/ performance, choreography and interpretation (and no, these are not purely subjective assessments, there are criteria, tangible elements to look for when assessing those marks). The same is true, by the way, of Jeremy Abbott, who should have been given at least CH and IN in about the same range as Takahashi and at any rate, way above those of Chan (while SS and transitions should have been lower to the other two)

    This differs of course from one competition to the next, as Chan deservedly got the best CH for his SP this season, for instance

    Also, yes, Chan is superior, but the comment that he is "clearly far superior in his overall skating skills than all other male skaters" may have been true in 2011; I think you will find that this is less so nowadays as several athletes are actively closing the gap (and I'd argue is equalled in some respects) as pointed out at the beginning of this season by Kurt Browning
    Last edited by rayhaneh; 05-02-2013 at 03:45 PM.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach View Post
    I can understand people not liking Chan for some of the stupid comments he has made over the years. I agree that Patrick can be very self-centered, arrogant and stubborn. But people criticizing his results is stupid. He is clearly far superior in his overall skating skills than all other male skaters and he is reward the higher points, what is wrong with that. Yes he falls ( the same as kostner ) but their vastly greater skills place their components high enough to allow them to make a few mistakes and still be placed high.

    Dont show him respect because of his comments sure. But dont show no respect because of his results
    I have no patience for this argument. As Rayhaneh points out in the previous post, skating skills are one component out of 5. Skaters with strong skating skills should be rewarded for those under the skating skills mark, and the other components as well as the elements should be evaluated based on the relevant criteria. IMO, Chan is not superior to all other skaters on some of the components and elements, and in some areas he is inferior to certain skaters (e.g. IN, P&E, 3A, spins). I also take issue with how the system rewards specific aspects of a skater's skill set, which is a general complaint not directly related to Chan.

    I don't think skating skills should confer automatic respect, either.

    Criticizing either Chan's results or his skating is not stupid, even if you personally have a different opinion. Liking his skating isn't stupid, either. But for all the attempts to make the system more objective, reactions to skaters, by both judges and fans, are still to a large extent subjective. I wish the ISU would recognize this and find a way to work with it instead of pretending skating can be fully quantified.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach View Post
    I can understand people not liking Chan for some of the stupid comments he has made over the years. I agree that Patrick can be very self-centered, arrogant and stubborn. But people criticizing his results is stupid. He is clearly far superior in his overall skating skills than all other male skaters and he is reward the higher points, what is wrong with that. Yes he falls ( the same as kostner ) but their vastly greater skills place their components high enough to allow them to make a few mistakes and still be placed high.

    Dont show him respect because of his comments sure. But dont show no respect because of his results
    I am quite neutral toward his comments, stupid or otherwise. I respect his basic skating skills but I strongly disagree that he should get very high marks for every component when he has multiple falls in his performances.

    I don't give Carolina a free pass either; she should be marked down when she falls, and not just in the technical. In the past (before 2011) she used to be marked down when she fell down many times. It's only recent that she is getting high marks over other skaters whose speed is not as great as hers but they are not third rate skaters either.

    Chan has been consistently held up whenever he skated poorly. My problem is with your argument that his skating skills are so great that they should overcome any amount of mistakes. Other top skaters are not poor skaters. Takahashi, Hanyu, Kozuka have excellent basic skating skills and speed. Just because Chan's basic skating is better than theirs, does not mean that they have poor skills. Fernandez, Ten and a few others are not too shabby either.

    IMO Chan would have been more respected had he been marked according to his performances, and not based on ONE component- basic skating skills. When he gets high execution marks after making 4 mistakes in a skate, it is so obviously wrong that I am baffled by anyone that argues they are correct.

    It might have even motivated him to give better performances, if the judges had marked his flawed performances correctly. In a way he too was robbed by this kind of judging. The rules are only a part of the problem, and they cannot be used as an excuse.

  10. #90
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    Hanyu is no match to Takahashi, Chan or Kozuka in basic skating. He has good speed over the ice but not the edge quality of those three.

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach View Post
    I can understand people not liking Chan for some of the stupid comments he has made over the years. I agree that Patrick can be very self-centered, arrogant and stubborn. But people criticizing his results is stupid. He is clearly far superior in his overall skating skills than all other male skaters and he is reward the higher points, what is wrong with that. Yes he falls ( the same as kostner ) but their vastly greater skills place their components high enough to allow them to make a few mistakes and still be placed high.

    Dont show him respect because of his comments sure. But dont show no respect because of his results
    What is wrong with that it's that we have a vastly flawed system that allows him to win controversial championships based on his skating skills alone. What kind of message is this sending young skaters? Do you really believe his skating skills are so superior to everybody else including his main rivals that he has 2 to 3 fall advantage over everybody else? You really do believe his rivals all have shit skating skills?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I have no patience for this argument.
    Gawd, how true.
    Last edited by shine; 05-02-2013 at 06:18 PM.

  12. #92
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    What is wrong with that it's that we have a vastly flawed system that allows him to win controversial championships based on his skating skills alone. What kind of message is this sending young skaters? Do you really believe his skating skills are so superior to everybody else including his main rivals that he has 2 to 3 fall advantage over everybody else? You really do believe his rivals all have shit skating skills?
    Did you forget his two near perfect quads at worlds? Besides nobody mentioned excrement in connection with the SS of his rivals.... other than you.

  13. #93
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    Patrick is the winner, but isn't a champion.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    Patrick is the winner, but isn't a champion.
    And Plushenko is the champion, not the winner ?
    Sorry, I couldn't resist

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    And Plushenko is the champion, not the winner ?
    Sorry, I couldn't resist
    this is Patrick's thread.
    I'm sure, you understand, what I wanted to say..
    Last edited by lala; 05-02-2013 at 07:03 PM.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    this is Patrick's thread.
    I'm sure, you understand, what I wanted to say..
    Yes, I understand

  17. #97
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    THX.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach View Post
    He is clearly far superior in his overall skating skills than all other male skaters
    See this statement means that everyone is supposed to agree with you? So what if we don't? He has superior skating skills - but over all other skaters? I assume this means that in order for Patrick to receive the amount of respect you seem to think is necessary is that everyone, every fan must agree with your statement.

    If the only way that Patrick will have received all the respect that some think is due is for 98% of the skating fan base or 100% of the fan base agrees that Patrick has the most superior skating skills of any current or past skaters, I doubt that will ever happen. After all we can't agree that the earth is round despite actual photos from space

    If you think that respect means that the judges reward him - then he has that respect and the rest shouldn't matter right?

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach View Post
    .... he can be a douche
    ITA with this portion of your assessment, Coach. I have written several times and in several places phases, etc. that mirror this assessment. The response I have gotten is v e n o m o u s .....

    However, ITA with you. He doesn't get the respect that is expected because he doesn't behave like a champion and often, he can be compared to a feminine hygiene product one would use on a summer's eve......

    and the bag it comes in .....

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    Patrick is the winner, but isn't a champion.
    EXACTLY!!!!! Great way to sum it up....

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