05-03-2013, 09:12 PM
Why do you say this like it is a fact, especially when it's so far from the truth in Patrick's case?!?! Skating Skills = 4/5 of the components now!?
Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach
05-03-2013, 09:56 PM
Oh dear, Eyre (is that pronounced "err" or "ire" or "eye-ree" btw?) -- We certainly all know by this juncture that there's nothing anyone can do to de-Chantasize ISU judges. The only hope perhaps is that Patrick will at the least stay on his feet throughout two performances or else fall on every single jump (of course both options are long odds). Or maybe, Patrick can get tips from Nicole Bobek on incorporating a hoop into his FS routine, the better to keep himself upright. Not saying Nicole can help him with artistry and superior leg lifts, btw.
Originally Posted by Eyre
In any case, I was addressing sk8ingcoach's urging us to "get angry" at Chan's comments. I was NOT trying to advocate to change the judges' minds. Clearly that's impossible for mere fans to accomplish. And, truthfully, I don't think that Patrick means any harm by his comments, no matter how clueless or foolish some of his statements have been. OTOH, most of his fans don't get the same bye!
Please deliver me from ever thinking like ISU judges.
I doubt any of the judges get to actually fully enjoy watching skaters' performances. Some of them may be too far up on their high horses, or perhaps too worried about maintaining their judgeship position and being on the right side of fed and ISU politics with their scoring.
05-03-2013, 10:44 PM
I think the real question is how can we balance the idea that we want skaters to continue to take risks and perform routines with ambitious content (not just jumps but choreography and transitions, etc.) and the idea that we don't want skaters to perform routines that seriously beyond their skill level and yet continue to win based the higher difficulty value even if they really have trouble executing it correctly.
Originally Posted by Vash01
Chan fans, take heart. I was reading the Grishuk/Platov thread, and was reminded how reviled they were during their hey-day. It's funny because the arguments by G/P ubers were that they could afford mistakes because their content and speed and skills were so much higher than anyone else, which is so similar to what Chan's supporters are arguing. It's just now, the discipline is different as is the nation that the skaters are representing.
Maybe in generation, people will look more kindly to Chan's 2013 Worlds win the way people have re-evaluated G/P and found some of their more controversial wins to be justifiable.
05-04-2013, 12:50 AM
I wouldn't put it on par with that. Chan's victories are disappointing because they are not always great; reflect poorly on the system and it's applicants and do no credit to the sport. Your comment was disappointing simply because it was a pithy dismissal of someone I find to have great talent. It does you no real credit, but no real damage either.
Originally Posted by lala
Yazmeen, I agree, criticism is not hatred. But I'd argue a comment like "I hope Patrick Chan falls on every jump" does constitute hatred. But I've been insulted when I pointed out that Abbott was given higher PCS for a multi-error skate than a clean one (NHK and CoR 2010 LPs, for those curious) - as if a basic fact that contradicts the Chanflation claim is inherently wrong.
And ultimately, that's the issue. I'm a Chan fan. I do find him a technical great, but I'm also moved emotionally by what he does in some of his programs. I'm fine with criticism (or at least I think I'm fine with it) but I want to engage with it at the same time. But while Chan fans need to recognize that criticism isn't hate by any means, I think a lot of those who dislike Chan try to assert their negativity as fair criticism when it ultimately isn't (the above comment isn't even the worst I've read about Chan).
05-04-2013, 01:43 AM
Hate is such an overly strong emotion, and engenders nothing much positive. In any case, I doubt people actually hate a young skater who has done them no harm, although sure it seems a lot of fans are unhappy with the state of the scoring system heavily favoring error-strewn programs because of Patrick's ability to land quads and exhibit superb SS, no matter his recent rampant inconsistency.
Maybe there are people who want to see Patrick fall on every jump, and I've seen it stated before. The statement and/ or the very idea of that happening is highly improbable and as silly as some of the comments by Chan fans. Personally, I was poking fun at Eyre's and sk8ingcoach's posts, not seriously suggesting I want to see such an outcome. It would be nice to see this controversy over Chan's high scores with mistakes cease to be relevant.
It's hard to know what to expect from Patrick. But this season, I did expect him to prove detractors wrong and to live up to ISU judges' heavenly regard. After the sp, he had everything working in his favor at Worlds and he still faltered, and still won. It's not Patrick's fault that he won, but at least he could lay off with dismissive comments about his competitors' mistakes, and take better advantage of the judges' favor and his own tremendous talents.
Maybe Chan might be helped too by his fans taking a step back and not being so overly identified with him -- perhaps it would help relieve some of the pressure he feels.
05-04-2013, 02:12 AM
May I suggest some of you listen to the Phil Hersh podcast available on the Great Skate Debate? Regardless of your opinion of Phil, it might explain what the skating world outside of Chan fandom sees re: Patrick, the value of heavy scoring weight on basic skating skills and issues surrounding IJS scoring.
That said, you may not like what you hear...
05-04-2013, 03:03 AM
Maybe he should dress up like Rappin' Rodney, and skate to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLGxWPtgodo "I went to a gas station and said 'My tires need air', the attendant said back 'Send them to summer camp!' I tell ya, I get no respect, no respect at all!"
05-04-2013, 06:28 AM
A lot of this stems from the undecided fact of, should skaters receive severely lower components if they fall. Yes Patrick has fallen a lot this past season, but falling should not greatly impact on transitions, choreography and interpretation. Sure you can deduct a little more on performance and skating skills. I will agree that sometimes they can go a little overboard in components when he falls. But i personally believe ( dont get angry ) that even if he fell 3 times, his components should still be in top 3 and judges agree. Whether you agree or not, it is what happens.
The prime example i can think of is Canadian nationals 2013. Keven Reynolds clearly had the better performance, but should that mean he should win over Patrick who has components way superior to Kevin even when Patrick fell.