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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Why do non-fans need ubers to tell them what's an appropriate way to discuss someone?

    In fact, I did not tell fans what threads to hang out in. I told fans who are unwilling to accept opposing viewpoints to stick with fellow fans.
    So Chan fans need to be told not to state their own opinions on Chan in any threads other than in Chan fan thread?
    Last edited by Eyre; 05-01-2013 at 06:47 PM.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    So Chan fans need to be told not to state their opinions on Chan in any threads other than in Chan fan thread?
    That is a ridiculous interpretation of what I wrote. What I did suggest is some fans need to understand that not all others will share their opinions - or, if they cannot accept that, to limit their interactions on the subject to like-minded individuals.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Hmm, how are the non-Chan fans not allowed to voice a different opinion? From what I've seen, the negative comments about Chan always outnumber the positive ones, at least on this board...
    I think that Chan's very loyal and devoted fans actually outnumber the vocal detractors. And some of the more obsessed Chan fans have been overly defensive and aggressive which has tended to be off-putting as well. I believe many skating fans have bent over backward to try and be fair in their comments, and when Chan skates well I have seen many favorable comments and kudos. Thanks to the more well-balanced views of calmer Chan fans, I believe many of us realize that Chan has actually been boxed into a no-win situation not of his making. It's unfortunate that the huge spotlight surrounding him has led to him saying things that have added to the critical disregard.

    With the increase of Chan's wins with mistakes, especially since the last two Worlds, there indeed has been an increase in vocal criticism of Chan on FSU, but it still does not outnumber the support and regard by his strong fan base on FSU.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe View Post
    Maybe Chan doesn't get respect because he doesn't deserve it. He may be a great skater, but he is a whiny, petulant human being who too often vents unpopular opinions to the press. If he would only take the time to think before he spoke, he might not get so much backlash.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    What I did suggest is some fans need to understand that not all others will share their opinions - or, if they cannot accept that, to limit their interactions on the subject to like-minded individuals.
    Same goes to any other skater fans. Why should only Chan fans be told this over and over? I realized that there was one or two over the top Chan ubers. But those Chan ubers haven't posted on FSU for a long long time.

  6. #66
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    ^^ But honestly, Chan wins the prize for the most loyal, adoring, and feistily defensive-minded fans ever (perhaps Yu Na comes close as well, but still Chan surpasses). What other skaters have fans who fancy themselves as a gang?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    So Chan fans need to be told not to state their opinions on Chan in any threads other than in Chan fan thread?
    You need to read more carefully

    To go back to the title of the thread: I think overall Chan does get the respect he deserves. Let's not forget that anti-Chan are a minority of those really passionate about figure skating, who themselves are a minority of the people watching figure skating. The general public who only watches on occasion will respect him, if anything, for the number of titles and medals he's won which clearly reflect that he has been, in terms of results, the skater who has dominated head and shoulders this Olympic cycle, regardless of the result at Sochi or even during the next season as a whole

    A lot of people, both casual viewers and fans of the sport, will also respect him for the intrinsic quality of his skating which cannot be denied, regardless of their allegiance to this or that other skater (I certainly place myself in this category). A lot of people also, of course, respect him because they simply love what he does on the ice.

    What I also have a lot of respect for, is the fact that he took the risk of going for a possibly risky choice of coach and deliberately set out to work on his artistry and went much more difficult, interesting choreographies this season, at least with his SP which is a marvel of finesse by Buttle, and which Chan definitely does justice with his skating. And he is in my view, even if sometimes faillible, a great competitor overall - figure skating is a sport and this matters greatly

    However, even if I respect Patrick on a lot of levels, that doesn't mean that we all have to love, or even respect, everything he does or say, and I think that's the concept some ubers have difficulties with. I don't regard all of his victories as such: his 2012 and 2013 World titles will remain tainted in my eyes because I don't feel the marks received reflected what we saw on the ice, especially in the latter occasion compared to Denis Ten (in 2012 Takahashi made a crucial mistake in his SP which would have made a win difficult anyway, although he was also quite clearly fleeced in PCs in both SP and FS while Chan was overmarked....): this in itself does not diminish the respect I have towards Patrick Chan directly, because it is the judges, not himself, who are at fault here (and in a few others as well, although that did not necessarily affect the placement in the end). But it does mean I cannot regard both those world titles as fully deserved and, like others have pointed out, I see both Takahashi and Ten as "moral winners" in these instances

    Also, while I recognize the qualities of Patrick Chan's skating on an technical level, his skating just does not speak to my soul. Both because his style simply does not particularily appeal to me and because I don't feel Chan is able, at least not yet, to pour some of himself into the interpretation of his music, although he came a little closer to that with his SP this season. This is something that, as a former performer myself, I hold in highest esteem, which means I will always respect those able to do that, on occasion, or in much rarer cases on a regular basis, more.

    Where I think he sometimes deservedly loses a little of that respect is over some of the declarations he makes. And please don't give me the "he is refreshingly honest" excuse: I love people who speak their mind, and I am hardly annoyed by every little thing he says. But there are times when he is downright lacking respect towards his competitors and/ or the competitions themselves, his declarations about WTT recently the most recent example of it, and that's a line he just shouldn't cross, unless he mastered self-depreciating humor to balance things out but that's not exactly the case either

    It's a shame because, based on his interractions with other skaters when we see backstage images or gala practice, he seems to go along well with a lot of them so, while I don't know him, that conforts me in my idea that he must be a pretty nice guy. But I don't know him so I can only really go on what he says and based solely on that, he does come across as a bit of a spoiled brat which can only get him so far in terms of due respect

    All this verbiage is of course a personal view and/ or understanding, but I still put it out there because I know some of these points are actually shared by others. I also hope it will help allievate some of the worries some Chan fans seem to have that people who criticize Chan just love to hate him: I think you'll find that you can respect someone up to a certain point but just not subscribe to everything he says/ does, or even actively dislike some of the things that that person does or says
    Last edited by rayhaneh; 05-01-2013 at 07:49 PM.

  8. #68

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    Chan does have devoted fans who idolize him no matter what he does on the ice or says off the ice. But the one group that haven't warmed up to Patrick are corporate sponsors. He wouldn't have the financial difficulties he complains of if he were more circumspect when it comes to what he says to the press. He isn't getting sponsorships or endorsements because his habit of venting to the press make him something of a loose cannon, and a controversial sports figure is not appealing from a corporate point of view.

    Chan is his own worst enemy when it comes to being financially solvent.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post
    You need to read more carefully
    True. I should. Thanks!

    But this time, I did. Still I will say the samething. It actually takes a bit of history to say the samething.

  10. #70
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    ^^ Ah, impasse I suppose.

    rayhaneh volubly and in a very unbiased way shares thoughtful viewpoints, yet still you are moved to "say the samething..."

  11. #71
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    To answer the question of the thread in a very forward manner......

    Chan does not get the level of respect expected for him because as a World Champion and Canadian Champion, his performances on the ice are forgettable and his off-ice remarks do not command respect from sports writers, fans or fellow competitors.

    "Hot mess" can be used to describe his programs with many falls and errors and "hot mess" can be used to describe his published interviews.

    Far too often, Chan is a hot mess. This is why he does not get the expected level of "respect."

  12. #72
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    Basically, one side thinks that Chan is victimized by people who for one reason or another (fans of other skaters, bitter about his wins, not liking his off-ice persona, don't appreciate his abilities, Canadian animosity, etc.) and is under constant attack. Another side thinks that Chan fans are just blind worshippers who aren't objective enough in their fandom to understand why he's being criticized.

    Then there are most people in the middle who do agree about the merits of his skating but don't agree on the level that it's being awarded when he's not executing his programs cleanly.

    People like skaters for various reasons. Some take the whole package, some like musicality and performance, others don't think performance is nearly as important as pure skating skills, others think he is musical, others don't, etc. I think it's foolish to tell people they are wrong for liking someone based subjective matters and preferences. It's one thing to argue about whether Chan has great skating skills, it's another to say you're wrong for not liking him because you don't appreciate those skills enough.

  13. #73
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    ^^ Yes, but you forgot to mention the no-less adoring, yet often more reasonable, calm and politely considerate Chan fans of which there are a few -- despite usually being overshadowed by OTT ubers and some of his detractors.

    Definitely, it seems that the OTT, overly defensive Chan fans as well as the entrenched over-scoring by ISU judges (in addition to Patrick's unhappy comments which demonstrate his lack of self-awareness and self-responsibility) have led to more fans being vocally critical re the way Chan often wins with error-strewn programs.

    In regard to Patrick, to each their own. And now, why not let's listen and learn from athletes who truly have something to teach us all. Patrick and other skaters could learn so much from listening to this Aspen Institute-sponsored panel discussion with Michelle Kwan, two former Olympic swimming champions, and two remarkable paralympic athletes. The conversation was presented to young athletes and aspiring Olympic hopefuls in Roaring Fork Valley, Colorado.

    Some very wise, positive and inspiring words from all of the panelists!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fWD8wE0BFs

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by chanunderrated View Post
    It is such a shame to see Patrick Chan underappreciated for his amazing talents and efforts. At this point people should really start talking about him as maybe the best skater ever I think. Instead all he gets is jerks whining about his well deserved wins.
    Ok well at least we now know which name Patrick's mom posts under...

  15. #75

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    I think some of the Chan fans are also interpreting that because some of us don't like his public persona, it affects how we see his skating (I saw my own post interpreted in this way). The person who started this thread wanted know why Chan doesn't get the respect he deserves. That is not just about his skating skills. Personally, I think he has tremendous skating skills and movement and just needs to fix those jump problems. I generally enjoy watching him skate, although I take issue with how is scored with all those falls (and I realize he doesn't have control over his scores). But his overall persona and his attitude plays into how people do or do not "respect" him. And his persona frankly has a lot of negatives, and I think its hurting him in the public eye and with an ability to gain endorsements and other support he could badly use. I can respect his skating and I do, but I don't respect his attitude. Same way I can believe Tonya Harding was an amazing skater and also a criminal who deserved to be banned from the sport.
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yazmeen View Post
    Yes, he does many things well, but that doesn't mean we should think he is the be all and end all of all things skating when he keeps falling as many times as he does. And I think what bothers a lot of people is that Patrick's falls seem to be overlooked or ignored when he competes, and that "break" isn't given to most other fine skaters.
    I don't believe this to be true, but I believe it's become so entrenched that it might as well be.

    In general, the reasons that Chan isn't popular are

    a) He favours the technical over the artistic
    b) He's the apotheosis of a controversial system that many feel has robbed the sport of it's beauty
    c) The difference between his dominance (in terms of victories) and successful skates is startling

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    What other skaters have fans who fancy themselves as a gang?
    So Chan-fans are fancying themselves as a gang while non-Chan-fans are ganging up.

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    rayhaneh volubly and in a very unbiased way shares thoughtful viewpoints, yet still you are moved to "say the samething..."
    One at a time. I'm still studying your thesis. Here is the result of this study:

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Oh please, may the best man win in Sochi???
    What is the measure of "the best man"? Is this "the best man" subjective? That's where I'm still not getting it. In 2011 World, Chan skated with no falls. But many say Kozuka should have won. I'm sure the judges, even in 2012 and 2013 worlds, believed that they had given the best marks to whom they thought was the best man.
    Last edited by Eyre; 05-02-2013 at 05:18 AM.

  18. #78
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    Chan is a 3 time world champion, well loved by the judges and always gets high PCS no matter you agree or not. And he has a huge fan base, quite some are very devoted, on what planet he's underrated? Unless someone is expecting too much.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    But then both Buttle or Abbott cannot deliver the tougher elements, transitions etc in their skates. Totally agree that Denis Ten is more musical than Chan. If you look at the artist program it looks so much like a generic Lori-Chan program without the higher level of difficulty that Lori gave Chan!
    Abbott is totally capable of doing intricate choreography. When he does it, he does it nicer than Chan because Abbott has much better carriage and emotions connecting to the music. Those are important qualities of Performance/Execution. As for skating skills, Chan has great speed, but speed is not the norm for skating skills, but the variation of speed is, same thing under 6.0. There are often some slow part in Abbott's programs, but he speeds up in a split second when needed. Luckily for Chan, he's the kind of person even if you give him Hanyu's jump he will screw it up.

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    Chan is a 3 time world champion, well loved by the judges and always gets high PCS no matter you agree or not. And he has a huge fan base, quite some are very devoted, on what planet he's underrated? Unless someone is expecting too much.
    Some Chan fans cannot stand the slightest criticism of him. Clearly their definition of respect is "never say anything negative about Chan, no matter what the situation".

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