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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    My thesis for the day:
    It will take me some time to study your thesis.

    First:

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    I disagree with Sandra B that Patrick is very musical, but that he simply fails to sell his musicality to the audience. IMO, despite his improvements presentation-wise this season, I think Patrick’s mastery of the blades, speed and smooth skating mask the fact that he is not very musical and moreover he does not interpret the music well. (He does not hold a candle to Jason B, Jeremy A, Dai T, Denis T, Toller C, Robin C, et al., in that respect). Patrick essentially skates over the music, and his artistry is still a bit studied, but because of his amazing talents overall, he can and he does get away with this slight weakness – it’s not a horrible weakness either, because he’s not that bad re musicality. However, to improve musically, artistically, expressively and interpretively, like a lot of young skaters, Patrick still needs to access more of who he is as a person, and often that only comes with maturity or in some cases such qualities are never fully realized.
    Patrick's musicality is not as good as Jason Brown and Jeremy Abbott could put on ice. However, Daisuke Takahashi's musicality has been limited by his skating abilities. I believe he is more musical than he has put on the ice. Sometimes, he just has to compromise it in that regards in order to concentrate on his elements which he has to do. In the contrast, Patrick could and has used up all he has well on ice. Denis Ten is no more musical than Chan. I don't care about the past skaters in this aspect.

  2. #42
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    I havent seen that much of Jason Brown. I love musical skaters though so maybe I should watch some of his tapes since it seems he gets high praise from people on this thread for that aspect of his skating. Does he have a shot at the U.S Olympic team.

  3. #43
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    Patrick's musicality is not as good as Jason Brown and Jeremy Abbott could put on ice. However, Daisuke Takahashi's musicality has been limited by his skating abilities. I believe he is more musical than he has put on the ice. Sometimes, he just has to compromise it in that regards in order to concentrate on his elements which he has to do. In the contrast, Patrick could and has used up all he has well on ice. Denis Ten is no more musical than Chan. I don't care about the past skaters in this aspect.
    The moment I submitted my post I realized that I should mentions Patrick's musicality.

    If you look at his early body of work and again that if you look at his Mannish Boy ex ( saw it again live last friday) you can why Sandra Bezic call him very musical. However as Patrick developed technically he had to sacrifice some of that innate musicality to his elements. Now there is no way that Patrick is close to Buttle or even Abbott. But then both Buttle or Abbott cannot deliver the tougher elements, transitions etc in their skates. Totally agree that Denis Ten is more musical than Chan. If you look at the artist program it looks so much like a generic Lori-Chan program without the higher level of difficulty that Lori gave Chan!

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    ... Just as we shouldnt be the ones to judge people's skating by sexual orientation we shouldnt judge skating by personal characteristics, which we may either like or dislike, whether those are facial features, colour and race or attitude... a true fan of the sport should be above this.
    Seriously, re that first part? Re the last highlighted part, ITA, except that's like die-hard figure skating fans trying not to identify with figure skating and with their favorite skaters.

    In any case, I don't think the judges are at all caught up in Patrick's persona, etc., just his quads and his SS, even when these assets are not always at their best.


    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    ...This is why it is a mystery to some of us unashamed Chan lovers why so called figure skating fans get so caught up in what he says, how he acts etc when the really important thing is only how he skates...
    Aha! What some unashamed Chan lovers don't seem to get is that many Chan detractors, as well as most neutral observers who critique his wins are specifically and exclusively basing their criticisms upon the way Chan skates and wins too often with glaring mistakes.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    I listed all those items including sexual orientation or race or attitude or even immaturity if you like, as something quite separate from a skaters actual skating. Tiger Woods for example is no less a great golfer because of his extra curricular activities. One can respect him as a golfer but not as a man.

    Would anyone say that Hanyu is a bad skater because he bursts into tears on the ice after a good program ? I am amused by it but love his skating as the two have nothing to do with each other. Only in Patrick's case do people create this huge argument about him not being a deserving winner because of what he says to the media.
    I've personally never heard the argument that Patrick doesn't deserve his wins because of his lack of tact. I don't think a skater's personality should affect their standing (unless they're whacking someone with a club cough cough), but you never know how irrelevant things can affect the subconscious (hence why a skater's costume is somewhat important...)
    I think the criticism of Patrick as a person is separate from the criticisms of him as a skater.

  6. #46

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    I think Chan gets the respect he deserves for his superb basic skating skills and the detail in his skating. When he lands his jumps he does get the respect. The only time he does not get respect is when he is given the wins despite multiple mistakes- some major ones- in his performances. If this was a rare occurrence, it won't be a big deal, but it has happened far too often to go unnoticed. On top of that, his lack of humility rubs some people the wrong way.

  7. #47
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    Unfortunately, the Chan fans missed my point. I can appreciate his skills, I just don't like his skating. Which in most of your estimation means that those of us who do not apparently disrespect Chan and you. No matter how many times I see him live, I have said I appreciate his skating, I don't like his skating.

    It boils down to - in your opinion I don't like him therefore I am disrespecting. Don't you think it is rather disrespectful to others to insist that we must see him exactly as you do? I hesitate to say anything about what I think regarding his speed, etc. because I HAVE been told now Congratulations you are a convert and have seen the light. just because I said I appreciated some aspect of his skating. For me life is not that black or white.

    As for his public persona and no one should judge his skating by those remarks, there are many talented people in this world in all sports or professions, if they act out whether in the media or other ways, I judge them on those things too. I give them a semi-free ride on behavior if they are young and new in the media. I don't when they have been on the scene for many, many years and think that it is reflective of either poor PR education or something else.

    This is a public forum, international forum, skating forum. That means people will like different skaters, people will take apart the programs, competition, compare skaters to others, have strong opinions. in my opinion any skater that is skating on the elite scene - whether it is the world stage or their home country have my respect.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    The moment I submitted my post I realized that I should mentions Patrick's musicality.

    If you look at his early body of work and again that if you look at his Mannish Boy ex ( saw it again live last friday) you can why Sandra Bezic call him very musical. However as Patrick developed technically he had to sacrifice some of that innate musicality to his elements. Now there is no way that Patrick is close to Buttle or even Abbott. But then both Buttle or Abbott cannot deliver the tougher elements, transitions etc in their skates. Totally agree that Denis Ten is more musical than Chan. If you look at the artist program it looks so much like a generic Lori-Chan program without the higher level of difficulty that Lori gave Chan!
    Oh dear, Emdee. BE NOT like Patrick please, throwing dirt on other skaters in order to prove PC's worth. Apparently, you mispeak like the one you adore as well, in that saying Abbott cannot deliver tougher elements and transitions is so inaccurate, it's dumbfounding. Clearly Jeremy Abbott can and has incorporated tough elements in his programs, and he is renowned for his transitions, and as well for his artistry and his choreographic talents! Abbott's problems are known to be mentally-based and now physically as well as a veteran who doesn't have many chances left. Abbott has lacked consistency and mental toughness, but there are many skating fans including myself, who'd rather watch Jereamazin' skate all day, even over participating in the tempting and ever so endless FSU Chan debates.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    Unfortunately, the Chan fans missed my point. I can appreciate his skills, I just don't like his skating. Which in most of your estimation means that those of us who do not apparently disrespect Chan and you. No matter how many times I see him live, I have said I appreciate his skating, I don't like his skating.

    It boils down to - in your opinion I don't like him therefore I am disrespecting. Don't you think it is rather disrespectful to others to insist that we must see him exactly as you do? I hesitate to say anything about what I think regarding his speed, etc. because I HAVE been told now Congratulations you are a convert and have seen the light. just because I said I appreciated some aspect of his skating. For me life is not that black or white.
    Exactly - the whole thing, though I only left the parts I most agreed with.

    Who gets to decide how much respect Chan deserves, how much admiration, or how many fans? I don't feel that the opinions of his fans are more valid or justified than the opinions of his critics (barring the trollish idiots, who should not be fed anyway). Nor do I believe that he's superior to other skaters in all ways and that this point of view shouldn't be challenged. If people want their favorite to be discussed only in a positive way, they should stick to uber threads.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    It will take me some time to study your thesis.

    First:

    Patrick's musicality is not as good as Jason Brown and Jeremy Abbott could put on ice. However, Daisuke Takahashi's musicality has been limited by his skating abilities. I believe he is more musical than he has put on the ice. Sometimes, he just has to compromise it in that regards in order to concentrate on his elements which he has to do. In the contrast, Patrick could and has used up all he has well on ice. Denis Ten is no more musical than Chan. I don't care about the past skaters in this aspect.
    Your points of view and welcome to them. I disagree. Denis Ten still has much to accomplish perhaps but he is definitely more artistic and musical than Patrick Chan, and Denis moves very gracefully and smoothly over the ice, albeit Denis does not have Chan's blade mastery and speed. Dai is a mesmerizing and charismatic skater, who like Jeremy A, is getting up in age and therefore has physical limitations to overcome. The fact Dai has challenged himself and grown so much as a skater, and the fact he has overcome so much in his career and has come back in such an awe-inspiring way from serious injury is not as heralded as it should be IMHO! In fact, Dai needs his own thread entitled: Chanatic-driven antics from anti and pro PC-ers, as well as from ISU judges have overshadowed Daisuke Takahashi's talents and accomplishments -- Dai royally at 2010 Olympics and 2012 Worlds. Ummm, perhaps judgejudy can help with editing this proposed thread title.


    Quote Originally Posted by chanunderrated View Post
    I havent seen that much of Jason Brown. I love musical skaters though so maybe I should watch some of his tapes since it seems he gets high praise from people on this thread for that aspect of his skating. Does he have a shot at the U.S Olympic team.
    Jason Brown is a dream skater. The U.S. men's field is loaded with talent and only two spots are available, therefore 2018 Olympic team is more likely for Jason. Also, JB still needs to develop his quads and maximize his recently mastered 3-axel. But he is uber-talented and very enthusiastic. I thank the skating gods that JB has his family, his coach, his gifted choreographer, Rohene Ward, his friends, and his rival in Joshua Farris, to keep him grounded with nose to the grindstone. And indeed, he will hopefully have the time needed to fully develop in a less over-hyped way than poor Patrick has been afforded.

    You should check out The Skating Lesson podcast's recent interview with Jason Brown. He's an amazing talker as well as a wonderful person seemingly filled with joy for figure skating. I hope he doesn't lose too much of his innocence and joy.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Your points of view and welcome to them. I disagree. Denis Ten still has much to accomplish perhaps but he is definitely more artistic and musical than Patrick Chan, and Denis moves very gracefully and smoothly over the ice, albeit Denis does not have Chan's blade mastery and speed.
    Chan moves more gracefully and smoothly over the ice with his blade mastery and speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ai is a mesmerizing and charismatic skater, who like Jeremy A, is getting up in age and therefore has physical limitations to overcome. The fact Dai has challenged himself and grown so much as a skater, and the fact he has overcome so much in his career and has come back in such an awe-inspiring way from serious injury is not as heralded as it should be IMHO! In fact, Dai needs his own thread entitled: Chanatic-driven antics from anti and pro PC-ers, as well as from ISU judges have overshadowed Daisuke Takahashi's talents and accomplishments -- Dai royally at 2010 Olympics and 2012 Worlds. Ummm, perhaps judgejudy can help with editing this proposed thread title.
    Go ahead to worship your musicality god.

    I'm starting to wonder what have been credited into Takahashi's actual skating from his off ice public persona and his dazzling upper body movements and his hair and his face?

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorianhotel View Post
    Too many controversial wins. Too many blatant wrong wins. Too overscored. Too bad an attitude. Too boring to watch in many ways despite pretty good skating skills. He will never be a star, his fans need to deal with it.
    I totally agree with this assessment.

    In addition, I would like to say that Patrick and his skating skills do not overly impress me. For me, he is NOT a better skater in terms of skills and performances as compared to other champions and skaters I have seen since 1970. He is not a better skater than John Curry or Toller Cranston or Robin Cousins or Scott Hamilton or Brian Orser or Brian Boitano or Ilia Kulik or Kurt Browning or Misha Petkovich or Robert Waggonhoffer or Jeff Buttle or Stephane Lambiel or a whole host of names of great male skaters.

    While still world class and a world champion, Patrick Chan, his programs and his performances seem forgettable. SorryBoutIt.
    Last edited by PairSk8Fan; 05-01-2013 at 08:10 PM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    In my experience, the fans of Patrick believe that he is the skating God and if anyone happens to have a different opinion about him, they are the ones who aren't allowed their opinions.
    Hmm, how are the non-Chan fans not allowed to voice a different opinion? From what I've seen, the negative comments about Chan always outnumber the positive ones, at least on this board. Maybe you were thinking of another place that I am not aware of?

    I think that many posters who, in your estimation who don't give Patrick the respect you think he deserves, are those who feel that a clean skate or nearly a clean skate should be marked higher than someone who may have the edging but falls.
    You must be confusing me with someone else because I definitely didn't make any estimation about the respect Patrick would deserve or would not deserve in my earlier post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    If people want their favorite to be discussed only in a positive way, they should stick to uber threads.
    Why do fans need someone to tell them what threads they should stick to?

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    Go ahead to worship your musicality god.

    I'm starting to wonder what have been credited into Takahashi's actual skating from his off ice public persona and his dazzling upper body movements and his hair and his face?
    Yes, people only like Dai because of his hair (he does have excellent hair), Lambiel because he's cute, Joubert because he is hot, Javi because he's Spanish and Hanyu because of Pooh. Obviously only Patrick Chan can be admired on account of his skating

    Yours is exactly the sort of comment that will convince nobody.

    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Why do fans need someone to tell them what threads they should stick to?
    Why do non-fans need ubers to tell them what's an appropriate way to discuss someone?

    In fact, I did not tell fans what threads to hang out in. I told fans who are unwilling to accept opposing viewpoints to stick with fellow fans.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Oh dear, Emdee. BE NOT like Patrick please, throwing dirt on other skaters in order to prove PC's worth. Apparently, you mispeak like the one you adore as well, in that saying Abbott cannot deliver tougher elements and transitions is so inaccurate, it's dumbfounding. Clearly Jeremy Abbott can and has incorporated tough elements in his programs, and he is renowned for his transitions, and as well for his artistry and his choreographic talents! Abbott's problems are known to be mentally-based and now physically as well as a veteran who doesn't have many chances left. Abbott has lacked consistency and mental toughness, but there are many skating fans including myself, who'd rather watch Jereamazin' skate all day, even over participating in the tempting and ever so endless FSU Chan debates.
    Maybe I should have written this differently. When a slew of tougher elements are added to his programs Abbott is not able to carrry the performance technically. This may be a mental or a physical problem but it sure affects his performance. I have only seen him live in the last three years so am not talking about his heyday when I only saw him on the TV.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    Chan moves more gracefully and smoothly over the ice with his blade mastery and speed.

    Go ahead to worship your musicality god.

    I'm starting to wonder what have been credited into Takahashi's actual skating from his off ice public persona and his dazzling upper body movements and his hair and his face?
    ^^ Welcome to your impressions as well, Eyre, of course. Figure skating is subjective after all. IMO, Chan moves smoothly and elegantly over the ice but with studied, and not very natural artistry. IOW, his cool speed and mastery of blade seems to enhance the view that he is very good musically and artistically. Definitely Chan's presentation skills have improved under the tutelage of Buttle and Kathy Johnson.

    Again, you too are welcome to your views and to your misinterpretations of my views. I don't think Dai Takahashi is a musicality God and he's not my favorite male figure skater either, but I am a Dai fan and I admire him tremendously. In fact, Dai is a superb athlete and a charismatic skater who has continuously soaked up learning experiences and has consistently challenged himself to grow as a person and a skater to the enjoyment and pleasure of non-discriminatory, non-Chan obsessed skating fans around the world.

    ETA:

    Dai is also most definitely a gracious sportsman who is a wonderful role model and representative for the sport of figure skating. In all these aspects, the same can not be said of Patrick Chan, no matter how PC's fans and ISU judges might desire to spin it.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 05-01-2013 at 09:29 PM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Yes, people only like Dai because of his hair (he does have excellent hair), Lambiel because he's cute, Joubert because he is hot, Javi because he's Spanish and Hanyu because of Pooh. Obviously only Patrick Chan can be admired on account of his skating

    Yours is exactly the sort of comment that will convince nobody.
    I was trying to link the skaters's skating with their off ice persona, just like some people have already explained well earlier in this thread.
    Last edited by Eyre; 05-01-2013 at 07:44 PM.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    Maybe I should have written this differently. When a slew of tougher elements are added to his programs Abbott is not able to carrry the performance technically. This may be a mental or a physical problem but it sure affects his performance. I have only seen him live in the last three years so am not talking about his heyday when I only saw him on the TV.
    One could argue that when tougher elements are added, Chan is usually unable to carry off his performances, either.

  19. #59
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    ^^ Spot on!

    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    Maybe I should have written this differently. When a slew of tougher elements are added to his programs Abbott is not able to carry the performance technically. This may be a mental or a physical problem but it sure affects his performance. I have only seen him live in the last three years so am not talking about his heyday when I only saw him on the TV.
    Oh Emdee, seriously? What do you mean by "a slew of tougher elements?" Clearly, Abbott is capable of landing quads, however inconsistently and in recent years infrequently. He also can do the tough elements with transitions, but nerves and injury problems have been his downfall. Under competitive pressure, Abbott has been unable to consistently overcome his nerves (I think he often over-thinks during performances which is a huge no-no for any athlete).

    I'm eager to see what Jeremy's collaboration with Robin Cousins will bring next season. Hopefully, Robin may be able to impart some wisdom to Jeremy also re not over-thinking during performances, and learning how to rise above the pressure.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^ Spot on!



    Oh Emdee, seriously? What do you mean by "a slew of tougher elements?" Clearly, Abbott is capable of landing quads, however inconsistently and in recent years infrequently. He also can do the tough elements with transitions, but nerves and injury problems have been his downfall. Under competitive pressure, Abbott has been unable to consistently overcome his nerves (I think he often over-thinks during performances which is a huge no-no for any athlete).

    I'm eager to see what Jeremy's collaboration with Robin Cousins will bring next season. Hopefully, Robin may be able to impart some wisdom to Jeremy also re not over-thinking during performances, and learning how to rise above the pressure.
    Maybe Chan is falling prey to nerves as well. I think this is what he has said in some interviews.
    He must feel like being in a pressure cooker ... every skater must no doubt... but more so Chan who we burden with our expectations.

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