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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by chanunderrated View Post
    It is such a shame to see Patrick Chan underappreciated for his amazing talents and efforts. At this point people should really start talking about him as maybe the best skater ever I think. Instead all he gets is jerks whining about his well deserved wins.

    That's a little uncalled for, isn't it? If someone is in disagreement about his win, that doesn't make them a "jerk." I like Patrick, as well as many other skaters, however, I do believe that some Patrick fans are a little too sensitive when anything negative is said about him.

    Also, just wondering--with lots of people claiming that reporters "skew" what Patrick says, has he ever disputed any of the quotes attributed to him?
    Last edited by ponta1; 05-01-2013 at 07:41 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by karlon View Post
    his 4T is high, good posture. but I prefer Yuzuru Hanyu's 4T. It looks so easy. Not only powerful and high, work with flow and the movement after the jump is good.
    He also gets a lot of GOE.

    http://youtu.be/EO7hC7boH14?t=1m22s
    Takeoff is not very good in slomo.

  3. #23
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    Too many controversial wins. Too many blatant wrong wins. Too overscored. Too bad an attitude. Too boring to watch in many ways despite pretty good skating skills. He will never be a star, his fans need to deal with it.

  4. #24
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    Perhaps Chan's naysayers too should try to deal with the fact that there are a lot of people who enjoy his skating and that he already is a star to those people. Don't know why some believe their opinion is the only valid one in a subjective sport like figure skating.

  5. #25
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    I like Patrick very much, but I do agree he has had some controversial wins & (most notably @ this year's Worlds). I blame most of it on the judging, though. Denis should have been on the top of this year's World podium.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Perhaps Chan's naysayers too should try to deal with the fact that there are a lot of people who enjoy his skating and that he already is a star to those people. Don't know why some believe their opinion is the only valid one in a subjective sport like figure skating.
    In my experience, the fans of Patrick believe that he is the skating God and if anyone happens to have a different opinion about him, they are the ones who aren't allowed their opinions. The Patrick fans are often the most dismissive of others opinions. I am not saying that all his fans are OTT with the need to convince the world that they are wrong in not agreeing with the Patrick God thing. Just as there are anti-Patrick fans who wish to point out flaws but many are. I've seen Patrick, Javiar, and Dai among others live. Each has their strengths and weaknesses.

    I think that many posters who, in your estimation who don't give Patrick the respect you think he deserves, are those who feel that a clean skate or nearly a clean skate should be marked higher than someone who may have the edging but falls. And are ones who appreciate a little humility from the skaters on the top of the world. I disagree that it is only print media that he has trouble with, I think his live interviews are just as damning. That is my opinion and as someone said, figure skating is a subjective sport.

  7. #27

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    Patrick’s fans are not ‘worshippers’ and neither do we think he is God. Worship denotes blind faith. We know what we like and admire in Patrick. We also see Patrick’s strengths and weaknesses. And no, we won’t jump down the building if Patrick loses the OGM. But yes, we will ‘defend’ him if we think he is being unfairly crucified because civil mindedness and fairness are important to us. We wouldn’t have come out to speak out if not for the uncalled for constant bashing of Patrick. If you choose to criticise so we can choose to defend. We can all indulge in the game of nit picking but as Accordion says, if only our energies can be channeled into positive outcomes, we can have more civil debates and perhaps maybe even learn to appreciate each other some day.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  8. #28

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    I'm more annoyed at Chan fans than I am at Patrick himself... I will say this I find everything Patrick does is perfection when he makes typically the amount of errors he makes, annoying.

    To me your falling down 2/three times in your program, your doing something wrong. It may be as simple as skating way to fast and yes rushing things. But something is being done wrong...

    The idea that programs with that many errors is what skating is suppose to be is ridiculous.

    To be frank, I think a lot of people including myself would appreciate and respect what Chan does well, if the judges didn't hand Patrick the score they give him for error ridden programs.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Patrick’s fans are not ‘worshippers’ and neither do we think he is God. Worship denotes blind faith. We know what we like and admire in Patrick. We also see Patrick’s strengths and weaknesses. And no, we won’t jump down the building if Patrick loses the OGM. But yes, we will ‘defend’ him if we think he is being unfairly crucified because civil mindedness and fairness are important to us. We wouldn’t have come out to speak out if not for the uncalled for constant bashing of Patrick. If you choose to criticise so we can choose to defend. We can all indulge in the game of nit picking but as Accordion says, if only our energies can be channeled into positive outcomes, we can have more civil debates and perhaps maybe even learn to appreciate each other some day.
    Hear hear! The voice of reason....

  10. #30
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    To be frank, I think a lot of people including myself would appreciate and respect what Chan does well, if the judges didn't hand Patrick the score they give him for error ridden programs.
    What has one to do with the other? You can still appreciate and respect what Chan does well regardless of how the judges treat him and the same can be said for other skaters. Quality of skating is one thing, judging is another.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    What has one to do with the other? You can still appreciate and respect what Chan does well regardless of how the judges treat him and the same can be said for other skaters. Quality of skating is one thing, judging is another.
    Yes, he does many things well, but that doesn't mean we should think he is the be all and end all of all things skating when he keeps falling as many times as he does. And I think what bothers a lot of people is that Patrick's falls seem to be overlooked or ignored when he competes, and that "break" isn't given to most other fine skaters. I'm neither a Chan fan nor a Chan hater, but it bothers me to see someone who falls multiple times continually held up like he is. It is pretty obvious something has gone seriously haywire with his jump technique and he needs to get it fixed pronto. As to his public persona, he needs to develop a few filters or at least train himself to pause and think for just a brief moment before he speaks. Regardless of how brilliant his skating is, he comes off like an ass or at best a petulant child in interviews, and that's not the behavior of a champion.

    Chan fans seems very frustrated that some can't separate his skating and public personas, but they do go together and can affect how people look at a skater (the world didn't exactly cut Nancy Kerrigan a break for a few ill-timed remarks after Lillehammer either, and Pasha Grishuk is as well know for her egotistical attitude as for her skating). Similarly, some fans cannot separate the quality of the edges as a sign of brilliance when the same skater can't seem to hold that quality edge consistently in his jumps. Chan has a lot of fine qualities, but the negatives sometimes overwhelm those fine qualities.
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yazmeen View Post
    Yes, he does many things well, but that doesn't mean we should think he is the be all and end all of all things skating when he keeps falling as many times as he does. And I think what bothers a lot of people is that Patrick's falls seem to be overlooked or ignored when he competes, and that "break" isn't given to most other fine skaters. I'm neither a Chan fan nor a Chan hater, but it bothers me to see someone who falls multiple times continually held up like he is. It is pretty obvious something has gone seriously haywire with his jump technique and he needs to get it fixed pronto. As to his public persona, he needs to develop a few filters or at least train himself to pause and think for just a brief moment before he speaks. Regardless of how brilliant his skating is, he comes off like an ass or at best a petulant child in interviews, and that's not the behavior of a champion.

    Chan fans seems very frustrated that some can't separate his skating and public personas, but they do go together and can affect how people look at a skater (the world didn't exactly cut Nancy Kerrigan a break for a few ill-timed remarks after Lillehammer either, and Pasha Grishuk is as well know for her egotistical attitude as for her skating). Similarly, some fans cannot separate the quality of the edges as a sign of brilliance when the same skater can't seem to hold that quality edge consistently in his jumps. Chan has a lot of fine qualities, but the negatives sometimes overwhelm those fine qualities.
    Agree with this whole post.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yazmeen View Post
    Chan fans seems very frustrated that some can't separate his skating and public personas, but they do go together and can affect how people look at a skater (the world didn't exactly cut Nancy Kerrigan a break for a few ill-timed remarks after Lillehammer either, and Pasha Grishuk is as well know for her egotistical attitude as for her skating). Similarly, some fans cannot separate the quality of the edges as a sign of brilliance when the same skater can't seem to hold that quality edge consistently in his jumps. Chan has a lot of fine qualities, but the negatives sometimes overwhelm those fine qualities.
    The truth is that the judges have separated these two. They have only looked at his skating and judged it accordingly.

    Your post has actually in turn become a perfect proof that the fan views against Chan's skating and his results were wrong. They were blinded and colored by their dislikes for Chan from other sources, such as his off ice public personas.

  14. #34
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    People complain about events Chan won which he maybe didnt deserve to. However Chan does not give himself his scores. It is not his fault if he possibly wins an event he doesnt deserve like some think the 2012 and/or 2013 Worlds, or other events. What should he do to make people happy with him, hand back his medals. No skater in history has done that. Do you want Grosschuk & Platov to hand back half their medals too as most of them were gifts, more than Chan. It is wrong to blame a skater for disagreeing with judging, especialy a brilliant one like Chan.

    People only talk about events he possibly shouldnt win but they never talk about times he was robbed either. Like the 2009 Worlds where he should have won, and lost out based on PCS to LYSACEK of all people. The 2010 Olympics where his short program was undermarked and the Grand Final this year where he was undermarked. Why no talk about those too.

  15. #35
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    My thesis for the day:

    If the numerous Patrick Chan threads on FSU are any indication, apparently Patrick Chan is A Man for All Seasons, in addition to being the SS God and odds-on favorite (especially in the minds of ISU judges and in the hearts of his fans) for winning Sochi OGM. To me it seems he's far from being underrated.

    Lots of posters here make excellent points from varying perspectives. Ultimately, it seems to boil down to the fact that regardless of what anyone thinks, ISU judges are hidebound to prove and to infinitely uphold the firm and undeniable fact that their regard for Patrick is not a fluke. They don’t seem to care about Patrick’s faulty performances, faulty words, or his immature persona, but only his quads and SS (even when those great things are somewhat missing in action during Patrick's performances). In fact, ISU judges seem to care not a whit what critical fans think of their judging – the critiques only seem to spur them to dig in further a la bunker mode.

    When he first burst upon the scene, I was amazed at the smooth and beautiful way Patrick Chan skated at the age of 16. Clearly, he had a great future ahead of him. Unfortunately, the Canadian media and others overly showered Patrick with kudos and hype and grand expectations, which unfortunately IMO put too much pressure on him and led to his overly cocky attitude at 2009 Worlds, which he clearly could have/ perhaps should have won. It’s been all downhill/ uphill from there. Patrick has not been allowed the freedom and astute assessments under competitive conditions that are necessary for growth. He’s not the only skater who might be hampered in this and other ways, but right now he seems to be the most notorious.

    I disagree with Sandra B that Patrick is very musical, but that he simply fails to sell his musicality to the audience. IMO, despite his improvements presentation-wise this season, I think Patrick’s mastery of the blades, speed and smooth skating mask the fact that he is not very musical and moreover he does not interpret the music well. (He does not hold a candle to Jason B, Jeremy A, Dai T, Denis T, Toller C, Robin C, et al., in that respect). Patrick essentially skates over the music, and his artistry is still a bit studied, but because of his amazing talents overall, he can and he does get away with this slight weakness – it’s not a horrible weakness either, because he’s not that bad re musicality. However, to improve musically, artistically, expressively and interpretively, like a lot of young skaters, Patrick still needs to access more of who he is as a person, and often that only comes with maturity or in some cases such qualities are never fully realized.

    Probably Patrick to some degree responds to the media as he does on occasion due to a combination of being a bit immature, as well as overly favored (spoiled) by the judges and consequently feeling over-defensive (not unlike some of his fans). At a very young age, he’s had to deal with a huge spotlight, huge anticipation, overdone hype, thrilling victories, embarrassing wins (that perhaps have engendered confusing messages for him re his level of growth and development as a skater).

    In my mind, the key to Patrick’s humongous IJS success is that Patrick has great desire and he had the gumption and the Plushenko-commanded foresight to work hard on incorporating and mastering quads, and that is the stroke of Chan genius that stunned and awed ISU judges forevermore in the IJS era, which seems to be a curse in disguise. Patrick’s arc and the hullabaloo surrounding him, reads like a Brothers Grimm fairy tale. This whole conundrum of error-ridden wins, SS to-die-for, foot-in-mouth disease, and those for and against seemingly Chan’s very existence has taken on a Friday the 13th life of its own. Patrick appears to be shackeled to IJS, ISU judges, some Chan fans’ defensiveness, Kathy Johnson’s devoted (some of his fans would say messianic) hold over him, a legacy of controversial wins amidst stumbles and falls, some skating fans’ derision, and some Chan gang members’ terrifyingly intense adoration.

    With good and very positive intentions, albeit with tongue-in-cheek (it’s the off-season after all) and FWIW, I say: FREE PATRICK CHAN!!! As has been said ad infinitum, it’s not Patrick’s fault, and that’s a true statement. The question is, will he rise to the occasion and stay on his feet?

    Oh please, may the best man win in Sochi??? Ummm …. I will try not to identify too closely with, but only positively enjoy (hopefully in a very detached way) the road leading up to the outcome. I just want to enjoy all of the skaters, especially in the loaded men’s field, and ignore the judging, but I’m identifying too much with that desire. Okay, to be honest, Figure Skating, I wish I could quit ya!!!

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yazmeen View Post
    Yes, he does many things well, but that doesn't mean we should think he is the be all and end all of all things skating when he keeps falling as many times as he does. And I think what bothers a lot of people is that Patrick's falls seem to be overlooked or ignored when he competes, and that "break" isn't given to most other fine skaters. I'm neither a Chan fan nor a Chan hater, but it bothers me to see someone who falls multiple times continually held up like he is. It is pretty obvious something has gone seriously haywire with his jump technique and he needs to get it fixed pronto. As to his public persona, he needs to develop a few filters or at least train himself to pause and think for just a brief moment before he speaks. Regardless of how brilliant his skating is, he comes off like an ass or at best a petulant child in interviews, and that's not the behavior of a champion.

    Chan fans seems very frustrated that some can't separate his skating and public personas, but they do go together and can affect how people look at a skater (the world didn't exactly cut Nancy Kerrigan a break for a few ill-timed remarks after Lillehammer either, and Pasha Grishuk is as well know for her egotistical attitude as for her skating). Similarly, some fans cannot separate the quality of the edges as a sign of brilliance when the same skater can't seem to hold that quality edge consistently in his jumps. Chan has a lot of fine qualities, but the negatives sometimes overwhelm those fine qualities.
    I dont understand what the public persona has to do with his skating. Judges are supposed to judge what they see on the ice. The same should be true of figure skating afficionados. If you are true fan of the sport the two should be separate. Just as we shouldnt be the ones to judge people's skating by sexual orientation we shouldnt judge skating by personal characteristics, which we may either like or dislike, whether those are facial features, colour and race or attitude. Media on the other hand may look at a composite whole because they are judging, if you will, a sports personality -- but a true fan of the sport should be above this.

    This is why it is a mystery to some of us unashamed Chan lovers why so called figure skating fans get so caught up in what he says, how he acts etc when the really important thing is only how he skates.

    Yes I agree that he needs a tech coach, yes I agree that last year he had some really bad programs but I also see that his aesthetic elements are grossly improved. In fact he did exactly what he said he would do that is not concentrate on the jumps but on other elements of his skating.
    One also needs to remember that his transitions and entrances into the jumps are so difficult that he is more likely to fall than others. His jump marks even where he falls however remain high because unlike some of his competitors he fully rotates them.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    Just as we shouldnt be the ones to judge people's skating by sexual orientation we shouldnt judge skating by personal characteristics, which we may either like or dislike, whether those are facial features, colour and race or attitude.
    I understand the point of separating technical skating skills from a personal dislike (hence my respect for Tonya Harding's technical skills), but I can't at you comparing sexual orientation and race to someone being a dick...

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by chanunderrated View Post
    ...
    People only talk about events he possibly shouldn't win but they never talk about times he was robbed either. Like the 2009 Worlds where he should have won, and lost out based on PCS to LYSACEK of all people.
    To the contrary, chanunderrated (what a catchy, if faulty username, btw): Some fans (most notably myself) have often spoken of 2009 Worlds where Patrick should have won, and probably would have won except for his mouthing off against beloved BJ. I have spoken of 2009 Worlds in relation to Patrick deserving to win quite often (I posted my previous post prior to reading your latest too), but skating fans tend to have a peculiar way of hearing and seeing what it is they see and hear, and apparently remember, eh.

    2009 Worlds results may be famously the one and only instance where ISU judges were pointedly sending Patrick Chan a message.


    Quote Originally Posted by chanunderrated View Post
    ... The 2010 Olympics where his short program was undermarked and the Grand Final this year where he was undermarked. Why no talk about those too.
    Probably because you might be in the minority (or mayhap the Chan-fan majority) with those particular viewpoints.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by iarispiralllyof View Post
    I understand the point of separating technical skating skills from a personal dislike (hence my respect for Tonya Harding's technical skills), but I can't at you comparing sexual orientation and race to someone being a dick...
    I listed all those items including sexual orientation or race or attitude or even immaturity if you like, as something quite separate from a skaters actual skating. Tiger Woods for example is no less a great golfer because of his extra curricular activities. One can respect him as a golfer but not as a man.

    Would anyone say that Hanyu is a bad skater because he bursts into tears on the ice after a good program ? I am amused by it but love his skating as the two have nothing to do with each other. Only in Patrick's case do people create this huge argument about him not being a deserving winner because of what he says to the media.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    My thesis for the day:

    If the numerous Patrick Chan threads on FSU are any indication, apparently Patrick Chan is A Man for All Seasons, in addition to being the SS God and odds-on favorite (especially in the minds of ISU judges and in the hearts of his fans) for winning Sochi OGM. To me it seems he's far from being underrated.

    Lots of posters here make excellent points from varying perspectives. Ultimately, it seems to boil down to the fact that regardless of what anyone thinks, ISU judges are hidebound to prove and to infinitely uphold the firm and undeniable fact that their regard for Patrick is not a fluke. They don’t seem to care about Patrick’s faulty performances, faulty words, or his immature persona, but only his quads and SS (even when those great things are somewhat missing in action during Patrick's performances). In fact, ISU judges seem to care not a whit what critical fans think of their judging – the critiques only seem to spur them to dig in further a la bunker mode.

    When he first burst upon the scene, I was amazed at the smooth and beautiful way Patrick Chan skated at the age of 16. Clearly, he had a great future ahead of him. Unfortunately, the Canadian media and others overly showered Patrick with kudos and hype and grand expectations, which unfortunately IMO put too much pressure on him and led to his overly cocky attitude at 2009 Worlds, which he clearly could have/ perhaps should have won. It’s been all downhill/ uphill from there. Patrick has not been allowed the freedom and astute assessments under competitive conditions that are necessary for growth. He’s not the only skater who might be hampered in this and other ways, but right now he seems to be the most notorious.

    I disagree with Sandra B that Patrick is very musical, but that he simply fails to sell his musicality to the audience. IMO, despite his improvements presentation-wise this season, I think Patrick’s mastery of the blades, speed and smooth skating mask the fact that he is not very musical and moreover he does not interpret the music well. (He does not hold a candle to Jason B, Jeremy A, Dai T, Denis T, Toller C, Robin C, et al., in that respect). Patrick essentially skates over the music, and his artistry is still a bit studied, but because of his amazing talents overall, he can and he does get away with this slight weakness – it’s not a horrible weakness either, because he’s not that bad re musicality. However, to improve musically, artistically, expressively and interpretively, like a lot of young skaters, Patrick still needs to access more of who he is as a person, and often that only comes with maturity or in some cases such qualities are never fully realized.

    Probably Patrick to some degree responds to the media as he does on occasion due to a combination of being a bit immature, as well as overly favored (spoiled) by the judges and consequently feeling over-defensive (not unlike some of his fans). At a very young age, he’s had to deal with a huge spotlight, huge anticipation, overdone hype, thrilling victories, embarrassing wins (that perhaps have engendered confusing messages for him re his level of growth and development as a skater).

    In my mind, the key to Patrick’s humongous IJS success is that Patrick has great desire and he had the gumption and the Plushenko-commanded foresight to work hard on incorporating and mastering quads, and that is the stroke of Chan genius that stunned and awed ISU judges forevermore in the IJS era, which seems to be a curse in disguise. Patrick’s arc and the hullabaloo surrounding him, reads like a Brothers Grimm fairy tale. This whole conundrum of error-ridden wins, SS to-die-for, foot-in-mouth disease, and those for and against seemingly Chan’s very existence has taken on a Friday the 13th life of its own. Patrick appears to be shackeled to IJS, ISU judges, some Chan fans’ defensiveness, Kathy Johnson’s devoted (some of his fans would say messianic) hold over him, a legacy of controversial wins amidst stumbles and falls, some skating fans’ derision, and some Chan gang members’ terrifyingly intense adoration.

    With good and very positive intentions, albeit with tongue-in-cheek (it’s the off-season after all) and FWIW, I say: FREE PATRICK CHAN!!! As has been said ad infinitum, it’s not Patrick’s fault, and that’s a true statement. The question is, will he rise to the occasion and stay on his feet?

    Oh please, may the best man win in Sochi??? Ummm …. I will try not to identify too closely with, but only positively enjoy (hopefully in a very detached way) the road leading up to the outcome. I just want to enjoy all of the skaters, especially in the loaded men’s field, and ignore the judging, but I’m identifying too much with that desire. Okay, to be honest, Figure Skating, I wish I could quit ya!!!
    Agree with a lot of what you say though not everything .... and yes may the best man win in Sochi!

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