Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 43
  1. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,401
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    ^I would LOVE to know what this performance lacked so much that it deserved to place 11th at this event.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w872zjNfzY
    Absolutely shine, and thank you! Way ahead of what a lot of Worlds competitors look like today stumbling around trying to grab IJS points.

    And, zaphyre14, if you need to look at what the other competitors did who were placed ahead of Matt that year, why not go back and do the research yourself. You're the one seemingly trying to belittle Matt's accomplishments and disprove the clear fact that he was under-appreciated during his competitive career. Matt Savoie is a skater's skater whose performances had great influence in a subtle but very impacting way. His skating still delights and mesmerizes fans who understand that he epitomizes the essence of what skating is all about: pure technique/ pure athleticism combined with pure artistry and heartfelt emotion. Matt Savoie was a skater who was not only ahead of his time, he also transcended time in joyous moments on the ice that will live forever.

    To claim that Matt wasn't "World Podium material" is actually meaningless, even despite being a dismissive insult. I'll bet lots of skaters WISH they could skate like Matt Savoie did in his Worlds debut, or indeed skate like Matt on any given day, and that includes current World champion, Patrick Chan. I don't think it's a coincidence that Kathy Johnson, former mentor and dance instructor for both Matt Savoie and Jeremy Abbott, is now exclusively coaching Patrick Chan.

    Despite his World podium medals and substantial top-notch skating assets, Patrick is essentially still searching for his own elusive identity and self-acceptance as a skater on the ice. Patrick is a wannabe trying to follow and live up to the genuine authenticity and artistry of Canadian giants, Toller Cranston, Brian Orser, Kurt Browning, Jeff Buttle, and he's trying to equal the artistic excellence of skaters like Matt Savoie, Jeremy Abbott, Dai Takahashi, Stephane Lambiel, and Johnny Weir. Having a boatload of medals doesn't actually provide anyone with the transcendent stature, esteemed reputation and legacy of genuine performance quality and magical moments on ice that the aforementioned skaters have achieved, and in whose bootsteps Patrick is at the moment a mere speck even despite his humongous SS.


    ETA:

    Thank you, Matt!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...ture=endscreen
    Who cares about the clueless marks! If chills don't run up your spine watching this seamless performance, are you truly a skating fan?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-zsYqfw-pg 2006 Olympics fp
    Amazing transitions and musical interpretation. Just wow! Matt Savoie is inspiring in the way that he overcame his shyness, self-doubts, skating politics, performance anxieties and athletic pressures to achieve his goals and his dreams. Kudos!


    I love Matt Savoie! I love Tom Dickson!
    Last edited by aftershocks; 05-02-2013 at 04:49 PM.

  2. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    99
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    When you finish 12th, 16th and 11th at Worlds, you must be lacking a lot more than just the political clout. JMHO.
    Lol I have to agree there.

  3. #23

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    13,528
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    42165
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...ture=endscreen
    Who cares about the clueless marks! If chills don't run up your spine watching this seamless performance, are you truly a skating fan?
    If it gives you chills simply to watch this, you can only imagine what it was like to be in the arena!
    I cried.

  4. #24

    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    In the Land of Unrealistic Assumptions
    Posts
    4,610
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    5648
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    You're the one seemingly trying to belittle Matt's accomplishments and disprove the clear fact that he was under-appreciated during his competitive career. [/B].

    !
    I made one post. How is that belittling? Over-react much?

    I'm not saying - and never have said - that Matt wasn't good. He was a marvelous skater and I enjoyed watching him. That's it. But I do find it hard to buy into the concept that many panels of different judges from all over the country and the world over a period of amny somehow conspired to keep him down in the standings. That's just nuts.

    Sometimes, no matter how good you are, you're just not good enough.
    I'd rather be thought of as absolutely ridiculous than as absolutely boring.

  5. #25

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    13,528
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    42165
    Sometimes, no matter how good you are, you're just not good enough.
    I hope no one ever says that to, or about, you!

    It didn't apply to Matt, IMO.

  6. #26
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,401
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    When you finish 12th, 16th and 11th at Worlds, you must be lacking a lot more than just the political clout. JMHO.
    Quote Originally Posted by munow View Post
    Lol I have to agree there.

    ^^ Stay stuck on the numbers then. What Matt Savoie has achieved in his life and in his skating career will never be measured by man-made ISU judges' scores and placements.

    LOL alright. It's definitely fun to sit on the sidelines and make argumentative judgments... very tempting and pleasurable for our egos. I do admire Patrick that at least he's on the field of battle making the effort and achieving some genuine triumphs. Still he has a long way to go, IMO. Skating is very subjective, so to each their own assessment. What we think doesn't really matter in the face of transcendent artistic genius, which Matt Savoie's skating career abundantly epitomizes.

  7. #27

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    53
    Posts
    10,469
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    21476
    It's one thing to appreciate what a skater does well, and to lament what they did not do so well or lament the fact that the judging standards at the time seemed to prioritize different strengths or lament the luck of some skaters having breakout performances in the right place at the right time and others suffering from the luck of the draw, off day at just the wrong time, or skating in the shadow of more successful compatriots.

    I think all of the above reasons can explain why Savoie didn't have more competitive success -- without positing active conspiracy theories -- and why many fans adore his skating nonetheless.

    I just don't like the approach of declaring some skaters "worthy" and others "unworthy" as summaries of their entire careers. I'd rather just enjoy the good stuff.

  8. #28
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,401
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by zaphyre14 View Post
    I made one post. How is that belittling? Over-react much?

    I'm not saying - and never have said - that Matt wasn't good. He was a marvelous skater and I enjoyed watching him. That's it. But I do find it hard to buy into the concept that many panels of different judges from all over the country and the world over a period of amny somehow conspired to keep him down in the standings. That's just nuts.

    Sometimes, no matter how good you are, you're just not good enough.
    Ah, dear zaphyre14, mayhap you might look to your own posts for overreaction ...

    I echo skatesindreams comments.

    Again, zaphyre14, maybe you are describing an experience you personally recall of not being considered "good enough." I sympathize with you there. Matt Savoie never allowed judges' put-downs to define his worth as a person and a figure skater (neither has Max Aaron, as he recently publicly reflected). Most skaters who have the grit and determination to achieve learn to develop a tough skin and to let the judges' marks melt from their memory. Patrick Chan might be well advised to do the same.

    And btw, you seem to be the main person talking about conspiracy, nuts and judges' panels. Most of us in here are talking about what a great skater Matt Savoie is, and how under-appreciated he was during his competitive career. Those who don't agree about those two facts can enjoy eating all the nuts they can consume.


    As always, thanks for your astute logic and perceptiveness, gkelly.

  9. #29

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    4,317
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Absolutely shine, and thank you! Way ahead of what a lot of Worlds competitors look like today stumbling around trying to grab IJS points.
    Agreed. Savoie just out-COPed about 98% of the skaters skating under COP in that program.

    And btw, you seem to be the main person talking about conspiracy, nuts and judges' panels. Most of us in here are talking about what a great skater Matt Savoie is, and how under-appreciated he was during his competitive career. Those who don't agree about those two facts can enjoy eating all the nuts they can consume.
    I also agree. There's a difference between judges actively conspiring against a certain skater (which no one has suggested) and vastly overlooking the skater due to him not having a strong political clout or federation backing (which is what most people here are suggesting), being USA's number 3 and not even a consistent pick at that. In reality, the latter was probably very close to the truth.

  10. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    395
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    You ride a very high horse, Aftershocks.

  11. #31
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,401
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    ^^ In your opinion, nylynnr, and you're welcome to hold whatever opinion, and to express whatever metaphor, and as well to ride or not ride yourself.

    Indeed though, I absolutely love to ride real four-legged horses. Animals, unlike people, can be the most wonderful and loyal companions. They don't judge.

    Me, as well as most of us here, a few posters excepted, just can't seem to quit.

  12. #32

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Thankfukky watching skating
    Posts
    13,672
    vCash
    317
    Rep Power
    41192
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^ Stay stuck on the numbers then. What Matt Savoie has achieved in his life and in his skating career will never be measured by man-made ISU judges' scores and placements.

    LOL alright. It's definitely fun to sit on the sidelines and make argumentative judgments... very tempting and pleasurable for our egos. I do admire Patrick that at least he's on the field of battle making the effort and achieving some genuine triumphs. Still he has a long way to go, IMO. Skating is very subjective, so to each their own assessment. What we think doesn't really matter in the face of transcendent artistic genius, which Matt Savoie's skating career abundantly epitomizes.
    Yes, it's very subjective. So what YOU find pleasing or podium-worthy others might not. Does that make you right & them wrong? Only if you're so egocentric that you believe your opinion is always right. You stated your case - no one needs to read it over & over.

    FTR, I adored Matt's skating. I've seen him in person & he gave me chills. Besides that, he's a really nice guy & has a lot going for him other than skating. I find it hard to understand why judges valued what skaters like Jeff Buttle did & didn't value Matt as much - I thought he was much better. His transitions into jumps were probably the most difficult in the field. But I think that at a certain point the judges kind of gave up on him because of his years of inconsistancies. I thought he should have been sent to the Olys in 2002 (that's just me) but he really didn't accomplish clean programs until the 2004-2005 season.

  13. #33
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,401
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    ^^ Far be it from me taf2002, to force you to read any of my posts over and over, much less agree with anything I perceive or have to say.

    Right and wrong is in the mind and eye of the beholder ... I don't ever claim to know what's right or wrong -- that's a whole 'nother can of worms, or bag of nuts. Indeed, I only express how I feel.

  14. #34

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Not after the same people as Theatregirl
    Posts
    21,935
    vCash
    350
    Rep Power
    38410
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Matt Savoie was a skater who was not only ahead of his time, he also transcended time in joyous moments on the ice that will live forever
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^ Stay stuck on the numbers then. What Matt Savoie has achieved in his life and in his skating career will never be measured by man-made ISU judges' scores and placements.
    I love Matt. I screamed at my TV when he wasn't sent to the 2002 Olympics. My favorite SP of all time was done by Matt.

    But that sort of over the top gushing is just.....

    Weird.

  15. #35

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,759
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Matt Savoie is one of many skaters who were unlucky in that their talents and skill set were not suited to the judging system during the time in which they competed; if he'd been a few years younger, he'd probably have done much better. He's not unique in this - there are skaters now who would have done better under 6.0, skaters of the past who never had a chance because of figures, 6.0 skaters who would have flourished under the IJS, and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    You're the one seemingly trying to belittle Matt's accomplishments and disprove the clear fact that he was under-appreciated during his competitive career.
    That is one of the classic blunders, or at least it should be: an opinion is not a fact and cannot be proven or disproven.

  16. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,401
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Aha, PrincessLeppard, one person's weird is another person's nutty conspiracies. But, oh well, none of that has anything at all to do with Matt Savoie.

    When I first saw this thread title, like Sylvia I recalled that much of this territory has already been tread in the Matt Savoie tribute thread. Lots of threads and retreads, not to mention gushing, judgments and nutty claims of conspiracy theories on FSU. In any case, I didn't plan to post in this thread about my love for Matt's skating, but I suppose the best laid intentions get mislaid in the off-season.


    Oh well, Zemgirl, fact or opinion, nutty blunder, whatever. Matt Savoie was for some of the reasons others have eloquently expressed under-appreciated during his competitive career.

  17. #37
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,054
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I can't help but smile at the irony that one of the most low-key, understated, introverted personality in figure skating can become such a polarizing figure. Perhaps it's just the off-season.

    In most of his career, Savoie lacked a certain kind of flair on and off the ice to draw the crowd. His programs are frequently a little too intellectual and too abstract to have broad appeal, and his lack of connection with the audience in general hurt the conventional standard for "presentation." The last season, 2005-06, was distinctive precisely because he connected more with the audience. Still, the nature of his personality and the style of his programs are such that he would never have a broad appeal.

    He competed in an era when consistently landing the most difficult jumps was highly valued. His technical consistency was hampered by the large number of transitions in his program content. If he had reduced the transitions, he might have been more consistent in the jumps and be viewed more favorably. But he didn't. It was his choice. He didn't seem to have any regrets. So I have none for him.

  18. #38

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    13,528
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    42165
    Whether his skating "projected" enough to suit the judges, or some posters; it was still a privilege to watch his programs, and follow his career.

  19. #39
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,401
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jun Y View Post
    I can't help but smile at the irony that one of the most low-key, understated, introverted personality in figure skating can become such a polarizing figure. Perhaps it's just the off-season.
    I doubt it's Matt Savoie or his skating that anyone finds polarizing. Methinks my mention of Patrick Chan in this thread in any context, as well as perhaps my "gushing" over Matt has raised a few hackles of some sitting astride their own high horses.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jun Y View Post
    In most of his career, Savoie lacked a certain kind of flair on and off the ice to draw the crowd. His programs are frequently a little too intellectual and too abstract to have broad appeal, and his lack of connection with the audience in general hurt the conventional standard for "presentation." The last season, 2005-06, was distinctive precisely because he connected more with the audience. Still, the nature of his personality and the style of his programs are such that he would never have a broad appeal.

    He competed in an era when consistently landing the most difficult jumps was highly valued. His technical consistency was hampered by the large number of transitions in his program content. If he had reduced the transitions, he might have been more consistent in the jumps and be viewed more favorably. But he didn't. It was his choice. He didn't seem to have any regrets. So I have none for him.
    Thanks, JunY. I respect your thoughtful viewpoints, and I agree with much of what you've said about Matt and his career. However, I differ somewhat in that I think he had his own kind of elegant albeit introspective flair. I also think that he did give some very wonderful and crowd-pleasing performances, so I think his appeal was larger than you suggest. But sure, he didn't have an out-sized personality that yelled, "Look at me, aren't I great!" In the tribute thread there are links to interesting articles about Matt and his relationship with his coaching team, and their efforts to help him overcome his shyness, self-doubt and rigid points of view about what he could and could not do on the ice. I really don't feel that his love of transitions necessarily was the factor that presented any great difficulty for him during competitions. According to Tom Dickson, Matt loved incorporating and performing unique transitions in his programs. Like many skaters, Matt apparently struggled with overcoming performance anxiety. It's never easy to consistently perform difficult technique perfectly. As has been said before, figure skating is not for sissies. It's an extremely difficult sport mentally and physically. That's why the consistency of Michelle Kwan throughout her career is so astounding and uncommon.

    Re Matt Savoie's career, IMHO, it was probably more that as usual, the U.S. men's field was loaded with talent and Matt was just unlucky perhaps in missing out on being the hot skater that USFS preferred to heavily back politically. (He in fact may feel lucky in some ways that he was not considered the "hot skater" by USFS. Certainly, Matt was always described as "a skater's skater," so apparently his peers always held him in high esteem.) Also, I read that Matt did not follow suggestions to ditch his long time coach and train with well-established coaches in more high profile locations such as Colorado Springs or California. I admire Matt for staying loyal to his coach and still finding a way to ultimately overcome his shyness and to achieve his goals without being considered the star U.S. skater. His confidence and consistency did improve as he accepted the advice of Tom Dickson and Kathy Johnson re believing in his talent and allowing himself to release his shyness in performance and express a different character/ aspect of himself through the music.

    I'm not saying I'm right or you're wrong. It's just my take, and so many different factors and levels of perception are involved in any case.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 05-02-2013 at 10:50 PM.

  20. #40

    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Walking to Work
    Posts
    25,842
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    32560
    Matt and Ryan Jahnke...interesting US males to watch.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •