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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by gordanlevitt View Post
    True, but isnt this thread supposed to step over that, as it is who is better skater, not better competitor. Michelle Kwan was also the Patrick Chan of that era, a big judges pet, so it made it easier to skate cleanly all the time when you know the judges had you penciled in as the winner before events even began. Sasha never had that comfort as much, she had to be perfect, and if she made a small mistake the judges hammered her.
    Oh, the judges certainly had Sasha penciled in at 2004 Nationals and Worlds.

  2. #22
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    Michelle better skater.

    Michelle had better lines, edges, jumps, artistry.
    She drew you in.
    Sasha came across as. stiff at times , flat edged
    She was more flexible as spirals michelle held steadier edge.
    Although I liked both spirals. Sasha more gymnastic, michelle skater.

    Sasha like Patrick knew how to work the ijs system with points. In fact many times she hinted she changed her program around to maximize the point. Which meant high scored despite mistakes
    She was a pet of judges & usfsa because she,knew,how to get levels and points.
    Usfsa was surprised in,short at 2005 worlds michelle did so well .Her score by skating clean.
    Sasha & irina beat michelle out through levels as well as should , they skated in gp events the years of 2003-2005..
    That was michelle only time. She studied it
    Last edited by query5; 04-25-2013 at 10:31 PM. Reason: Correction

  3. #23
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    You're hysterical, gordanlevitt. If Sasha would have won so many competitions if she were clean, how can you also claim that Michelle was penciled in as the winner before the event even began? Which is it?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gordanlevitt View Post
    Michelle Kwan was also the Patrick Chan of that era, a big judges pet, so it made it easier to skate cleanly all the time when you know the judges had you penciled in as the winner before events even began.
    How exactly has knowing you're going to win ahead of time helped Patrick Chan skate cleanly?

  5. #25

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    Kwan, no question. Sasha was a beautiful short program skater but she only rarely completed a freeskate without mopping up the ice with her butt at least once or more. Sasha's best quality was her flexibility moves, but those don't win competitions. She never really did a true lutz in her life, and she just didn't relate to the audience and draw them in the way Michelle did. It says a lot about Sasha's best talents when you consider her final exhibition and SOI performances were pretty much totally lacking jumps and mainly showing off her bendy, flexy moves and nothing else.

    And, no, I don't hate Sasha, I really enjoyed her skating and was gutted when she fell twice and lost that OGM. As much as I favored Michelle, I really wanted to see Sasha pull that one off in Torino after Michelle withdrew. But she was the usual Sasha, another deer in the headlights long program with falls.
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gordanlevitt View Post
    True, but isnt this thread supposed to step over that, as it is who is better skater, not better competitor. Michelle Kwan was also the Patrick Chan of that era, a big judges pet, so it made it easier to skate cleanly all the time when you know the judges had you penciled in as the winner before events even began. Sasha never had that comfort as much, she had to be perfect, and if she made a small mistake the judges hammered her.
    Please don't feed the obvious troll.

  7. #27

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    Sorry, duplicate post
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

  8. #28
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    Cool

    E that being said they are both good and enjoyable in their own way.

  9. #29
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    The only edge Cohen had over Kwan were her spins and flexibility. Kwan was easily the better jumper, better skater (speed, skating skills, edges, flow, and footwork were all better than Sasha), and by far the better competitor. Artistry is subjective, but I put Kwan over Cohen in that department too as Michelle showed better versatility and more originality (Rush, A Day in the Life, Miraculous Mandarin, etc.) than Sasha, who was more one-note and always seemed to skate to safe, tested classic skating warhorses (Malagueña, Swan Lake, Carmen, Nutcracker, & Romeo + Juliet). Michelle produced far more memorable, iconic programs (Romanza, Salome, Dream of Desdemona, Taj Mahal, Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto #2, Lyra Angelica, Lamento D'Ariane, The Red Violin, East of Eden, Song of the Black Swan, The Feeling Begins, Concierto de Aranjuez, & Spartacus).

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    The only edge Cohen had over Kwan were her spins and flexibility. Kwan was easily the better jumper, better skater (speed, skating skills, edges, flow, and footwork were all better than Sasha), and by far the better competitor. Artistry is subjective, but I put Kwan over Cohen in that department too as Michelle showed better versatility and more originality (Rush, A Day in the Life, Miraculous Mandarin, etc.) than Sasha, who was more one-note and always seemed to skate to safe, tested classic skating warhorses (Malagueña, Swan Lake, Carmen, Nutcracker, & Romeo + Juliet). Michelle produced far more memorable, iconic programs (Romanza, Salome, Dream of Desdemona, Taj Mahal, Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto #2, Lyra Angelica, Lamento D'Ariane, The Red Violin, East of Eden, Song of the Black Swan, The Feeling Begins, Concierto de Aranjuez, & Spartacus).
    Well I finally found something pro-Kwan that I disagree with on this thread. I never found Kwan very versatile, certainly not in the style of a Bobek, or Yamaguchi in her pro years. I know people will cite Kwan's many different programs featuring different musical styles but I never believed she pulled off different styles that well. I'd give that edge to Cohen.

    And as a huge Kwan fan, I am surprised that Spartacus is considered an iconic Kwan program. Same goes for Ariane, Desdemona, Red Violin, Song of the Black Swan and The Feeling Begins. Desdemona was a great program, maybe her best short program ever. Iconic? No. The others I listed, well she may have given great performances of them, but iconic programs? No. Certainly she had more iconic programs than Cohen did though. In fact, I can't think of one iconic program of Cohen's.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    Jumps
    Michelle has better jump technique than Sasha, though Sasha has bigger jumps. Sasha has attempted more difficult 3-3s (such as 3lutz-3toe and 3flip-3toe) but is generally not successful at them. I don't remember her landing a 3-3 in a competition - can someone correct me if I'm wrong. Michelle mainly just performs the 3toe-3toe, and has landed it successfully many times in competition.
    I believe Sasha's one and only clean 3-3 was a 3lutz-3toe at 2003 worlds lp Rachmaninoff program (loved that program).

    Jump wise, Michelle had far superior jump technique, steadiness, edge quality in and out of the jumps and even height was comparable if not better than Sasha's.

    Spins and spirals I would give a slight edge to Sasha.

    Skating skill Michelle wins, and artistry is subjective, I think both have great artistry, let's call it a tie, overall, I would still have Michelle ahead of Sasha as the better overall skater.

  12. #32
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    kwan was more versatile than cohen. she had such a long career people tend to forget little gems here and there. i think she had 4 main stages: the precocious little girl (92-95), the dramatic character actress (96-97, 99), light and floaty michelle who was portraying herself and her love of skating (98), and then the last chunk of her career (03-05) where she tried to portray a stronger, more powerful image rather than that delicate, lyrical style she embodied mid career. her body type coincidentally changed to match HA

    cohen could do the fierce, passionate diva (malaguena, dark eyes) or the soft prima ballerina but she had a serious case of b****face which meant the gigantic smiles she'd plaster onto her face during some of her programs looked so fake. those joker smiles were more scary than they were warm and inviting
    also, with the success of malaguena it seemed like every sp she did afterwards was a pale imitation of the same theme. even when she came back in 2010!
    Last edited by shoocreme; 04-26-2013 at 02:26 AM.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by gordanlevitt View Post
    True, but isnt this thread supposed to step over that, as it is who is better skater, not better competitor. Michelle Kwan was also the Patrick Chan of that era, a big judges pet, so it made it easier to skate cleanly all the time when you know the judges had you penciled in as the winner before events even began. Sasha never had that comfort as much, she had to be perfect, and if she made a small mistake the judges hammered her.
    You can't be serious. Michelle Kwan was one of the most consistent skaters of all time. To compare her with the often falling Chan (even though he has fantastic basic skating skills) is ludicrous. When Michelle made mistakes, the judges did hammer her. She lost to Tara in 1997 at nationals and worlds, lost to Irina more than once, and even lost to Maria Butyrskaya when she had subpar skates, which was rare.

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    It boggles my mind that this is even a question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by znhurston View Post
    What about Cohen's spirals? Is there any ladies' skater in history who has performed better spirals??
    Nicole Bobek I would say. She had similar flxability in the spiral, but deeper stronger edges and faster than Cohen.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by znhurston View Post
    What about Cohen's spirals? Is there any ladies' skater in history who has performed better spirals??
    When it comes to speed, ice coverage, and depth of edge, then yes there have been ladies who had better spirals than Sasha Cohen.

    Sasha Cohen had the most split in her positions and a great toe point (probably the best), but even I know there are some who prefer Nicole Bobek's positions because they felt her line was more aesthetically-pleasing. Someone also mentioned that Bobek has a much deeper edges to her spirals too, but the problem is that Bobek didn't hold her positions as long as Cohen's did. Whether that was due to ability or choice, I don't know.

    Also, Michelle Kwan's speed and ice coverage in her spirals (ability to hold that position with extreme steadiness and probably the smoothest transition from inside to outside edges of anyone) were the best during her era. If you watch her exhibitions, you can see all the different positions and edges Kwan was able to do on her spirals. Her stretch was already top-notch, but it actually got better in the 2004-2005 season and in that Totentaz SP she performed that one time in Winter 2005.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Nicole Bobek I would say. She had similar flxability in the spiral, but deeper stronger edges and faster than Cohen.
    I believe Bobek was "the first" to do the spiral in that position. It did not appear to become common until after Cohen started doing it.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    Well I finally found something pro-Kwan that I disagree with on this thread. I never found Kwan very versatile, certainly not in the style of a Bobek, or Yamaguchi in her pro years. I know people will cite Kwan's many different programs featuring different musical styles but I never believed she pulled off different styles that well. I'd give that edge to Cohen.
    I never claimed that Michelle was the most original or versatile skater ever, but in comparison to Sasha, Kwan was more original and versatile than Cohen. Michelle had a knack for skating to music pieces that no one had ever heard in skating competition before and, stylistically, she did attempt to challenge herself from what was comfortable to her. Given her comparitively shorter career to Kwan, Cohen recycled many of her programs and music pieces . . . she skated to music from Dark Eyes for 3 seasons, Malaguena for 2 seasons, and My Sweet and Tender Beast for 2 seasons. Even Cohen's Romeo + Juliet competitive LP in the 2006 season came about after she had already used the piece of music as an exhibition in 2003-2004. Performing to Skating's Greatest Hits or to the same music pieces over and over and over doesn't show originality or versatility. If you believe it does, then I'll simply agree to disagree with you.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 04-26-2013 at 07:29 PM.

  19. #39

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    I always found Cohen to be sort of dead behind the eyes when she skated. She hit the high notes with her positions and everything, but I never really found her convincing in her musical expression. I always felt there was a sort of mental or spiritual separation between her and the music, but she luckily had choreography that utilized her flexibility well.

    The one time I really felt something during a performance was her 2006 Olympics LP. After her two mistakes, she just woke up or something, but her performance for the rest of that routine felt genuine.

  20. #40
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    I'm going with Michelle. I like Sasha and she was a talented skater, but she always fell at least once during her long programs. I can't remember any long program during competition where she didn't fall. If she could have focused, that would have been great, but she always seemed to lose her concentration which caused her to fall.
    Angie
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