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  1. #1

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    What happens to Virtue and Moir's reputation if they lose next year?

    Very few Olympic champions are dethroned on their second try. At his third Olympics Boitano--who was a little bit injured and broken--failed to make it back to Gold. He had also been away from eligible competition for six years. Petrenko at his third Olympics-- the same games as Boitano in 1994-- failed to stay atop the podium. It was a disappointment, but since his contemporaries from prior games-- Browning and Boitano--also failed to medal, it seemed to soften the sting. None of the "old timers" did much better than the others.

    Now if Virtue and Moir are overtaken in the 2014 Olympics by their closest 2010 Olympic rivals, Davis and White, the story is notably different. It's like a rematch being played, and both teams are considered--at least at this moment--to still be in their primes. What will it mean if Davis and White win? Will they sort of be the ultimate winners? Is this 2014 prize the biggest in a sense?

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    No reputations will be injured. They are Likely to be a point or two apart while being 10 to 20 points above everyone else!! That's shows their talent almost as well as who wins! They are roughly even but 10 to 20 points above everyone else! That says it all. Just look at 2013 worlds. Every other team so far behind - not even close in any way. They make it seem like they are competing against people with no talent or whatever.

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    Nothing.

    Title count and medal color do not determine a team's or skater's place in history. Michelle Kwan was never able to win the OGM, yet no one questions that she's one of the greatest ladies skaters ever. Kurt Browning never managed to win an Olympic medal of any color, yet he's considered one of the greatest men of all-time. Usova and Zhulin never won the OGM and only have one world title, but are considred to be one of the greatest ice dance teams of all-time. On the flipside, just to give one example, Sarah Hughes, Tara Lipinski, and Oksana Baiul all have OGM's, but it's hard to find anyone who thinks any of these three belong on a list of all-time great ladies.
    Last edited by aka_gerbil; 04-23-2013 at 02:52 AM.

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    TIL - nothing will happen to V/M's reputation should they lose at any competition next season. They will still be known for their excellent body of work over the years (especially Carmen, I believe) and for being the youngest to win the OGM. They will always have the admiration of their fans and other people who know ice dancing.

    Should D/W win everything next season, it means that they are 2014 OGMs.
    Crazy about sports!

  5. #5

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    What happened with T-D reputation, when they won only third place in 1994?
    They will be OGM forever, like other OGM. There are no former Olympics champions. They still be youngest OM in ice dance and first from NA and Canada. Of couse they couldnt repeat G-P (but they already didnt repeat it, because they are only 2-times WCH).
    And if D-W will win OG they become Olympic champions too. First USA OGM in ice dance.

  6. #6

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    They will be remembered as OGMs (and the first to win the Olympics on their first try since the event was added in 1976), World Champions, Canadian champions, and legendary ice dancers. Their reputation will not be hurt a bit if they don't win another gold.
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    No reputations will be injured. They are Likely to be a point or two apart while being 10 to 20 points above everyone else!! That's shows their talent almost as well as who wins! They are roughly even but 10 to 20 points above everyone else! That says it all. Just look at 2013 worlds. Every other team so far behind - not even close in any way. They make it seem like they are competing against people with no talent or whatever.
    I really doubt they would see it that way. I'm sure they would like to be able to say they've won twice, not to say "we were in the top two twice with some other team and beat everyone else by a lot of points."

    It is an interesting question, TheIronLady. IMO, not winning doesn't seem to have hurt Petrenko, Boitano, Witt, or T&D's reputation at all. They had all retired, although Petrenko really only had a year off.

    It does seem to have hurt V&V, and maybe M&D and Plushenko. That's a hard call because it might be quite specific to how much people loved G&G and how much they dislike Plushenko. But hey, that's why it takes balls to stay in/come back. I can respect that. I imagine a lot of opinions would be colored by how much the poster likes or dislikes V&M in general.

    I guess this would be more of a V&V/G&G situation where there was no retirement, and they competed against each other for several years. The precedent for V&M is G&P, who won every event they entered after the OGM. Tough shoes to fill, and they're already a bit behind.

    Another related issue seems to be skaters who won OGM and retired without a world title. Urmanov stuck around for several years while Kulik retires immediately. Kulik seems to have a great reputation while Urmanov's suffered. Is that fair?

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    Lipinski and Baiul have worse reputations because they got their OGM's and fled the scene. At least V/M have stuck around.

  9. #9

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    They've won all the medals, now it is time for them to be daring and do iconic programs. I think their Carmen program was more memorable than their Olympic programs even if they didn't win Worlds. Playing it safe to win would be a mistake in my opinion.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post

    It does seem to have hurt V&V, and maybe M&D and Plushenko. That's a hard call because it might be quite specific to how much people loved G&G and how much they dislike Plushenko. But hey, that's why it takes balls to stay in/come back. I can respect that. I imagine a lot of opinions would be colored by how much the poster likes or dislikes V&M in general.
    I don't know that Plushenko's reputation suffered because he didn't win, but because he wasn't especially gracious at the medal ceremony, and even there, a lot of the annoyance/disrespect was aimed at his ubers for their temper tantrums, which VASTLY exceeded anything he did.

    And I don't see how M&D's reputation suffered for going back, skating a routine a lot of people thought should win, and losing to a performance some people thought shouldn't have beaten them. DEFINITELY didn't hurt Dmitriev coming back with a new partner. (Although, if B&S hadn't fallen at literally the last minute, who knows...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    I don't know that Plushenko's reputation suffered because he didn't win, but because he wasn't especially gracious at the medal ceremony, and even there, a lot of the annoyance/disrespect was aimed at his ubers for their temper tantrums, which VASTLY exceeded anything he did.
    I'm sure that didn't help but IMO, the writing was on the wall from the moment he announced his comeback. People were bashing him and chanting ABP (Anyone but Plush) well before those incidents.

    And I don't see how M&D's reputation suffered for going back, skating a routine a lot of people thought should win, and losing to a performance some people thought shouldn't have beaten them. DEFINITELY didn't hurt Dmitriev coming back with a new partner. (Although, if B&S hadn't fallen at literally the last minute, who knows...)
    Yeah, I suppose you're right. I have always felt like M&D were in the shadow of G&G though, and am thinking specifically about OTT comments like they were truck drivers on the ice, kicking up more snow, etc. I think if they had retired in 1992 then people would've remembered them as more classically elegant; they suffered in comparison to G&G in some aspects in 1994, but as you said, they also got a lot of support, and their Rach program made them legandary.

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    imo It won't hurt their reputation. They already have a legacy of their own & a lot of people, including figure skating experts, will remember them as one of the best ice dance teams in history. A lot of their fellow ice dancers like I/K already look up to them.

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    Whatever happens they have Mahler which is one of the all time greats if not the greatest (even over T/D) Olympic ice dance (imho.)

  14. #14

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    They will still remain the 2010 OGM winners & 2x world champions, and have their place in history. Losing the 1994 OGM did not erase M&D's 1992 OGM (nor the beauty of their LP Libestraum). I think V&M's Mahler will remain unforgettable.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    TIL - nothing will happen to V/M's reputation should they lose at any competition next season. They will still be known for their excellent body of work over the years (especially Carmen, I believe) and for being the youngest to win the OGM. They will always have the admiration of their fans and other people who know ice dancing.

    ...
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    I don't know that Plushenko's reputation suffered because he didn't win, but because he wasn't especially gracious at the medal ceremony, and even there, a lot of the annoyance/disrespect was aimed at his ubers for their temper tantrums, which VASTLY exceeded anything he did.

    And I don't see how M&D's reputation suffered for going back, skating a routine a lot of people thought should win, and losing to a performance some people thought shouldn't have beaten them. DEFINITELY didn't hurt Dmitriev coming back with a new partner. (Although, if B&S hadn't fallen at literally the last minute, who knows...)
    I'm not a fan of Plushy's skating (though i do like some of his work and think he is an amazing talent) but i actually thought his hopping up on the top step was kind of cute and funny. He was smiling and laughing as he did it. I don't think he meant to or did steal Evan's moment, but that's jmo.
    That Plushy was able to come back from injury after so much time away and almost win another OGM only added to his legacy for me.

    And i do believe B&S would have won had it not been for that fall (and this is not to take anything away from K&D as they were a great team). That was so heartbreaking--falling on that lift at the end. I was gutted for them. Had K&D won silver that Olympics, I still think Artur would be remembered as one of the greatest ever.

    Getting back to V&M, like Deb said, their body of work speaks for itself. I think they are the finest of their generation and belong right up there with K&P, T&D, U&Z, et. al. They are such a complete team--incredible dancers with exceptional skating skills.

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    They will forever be legends of ice dance, much like Torvill and Dean, in my opinion. I believe they'll be remembered more than Davis and White say 20 years from now, no matter what the results are next year.

    Just my thoughts.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I really doubt they would see it that way. I'm sure they would like to be able to say they've won twice, not to say "we were in the top two twice with some other team and beat everyone else by a lot of points."

    It is an interesting question, TheIronLady. IMO, not winning doesn't seem to have hurt Petrenko, Boitano, Witt, or T&D's reputation at all. They had all retired, although Petrenko really only had a year off.

    It does seem to have hurt V&V, and maybe M&D and Plushenko. That's a hard call because it might be quite specific to how much people loved G&G and how much they dislike Plushenko. But hey, that's why it takes balls to stay in/come back. I can respect that. I imagine a lot of opinions would be colored by how much the poster likes or dislikes V&M in general.

    I guess this would be more of a V&V/G&G situation where there was no retirement, and they competed against each other for several years. The precedent for V&M is G&P, who won every event they entered after the OGM. Tough shoes to fill, and they're already a bit behind.

    Another related issue seems to be skaters who won OGM and retired without a world title. Urmanov stuck around for several years while Kulik retires immediately. Kulik seems to have a great reputation while Urmanov's suffered. Is that fair?
    I wasn't seeing it from their point of view just my point of view. But either way losing to D/W after beating them in 2014 I don't think would have much a difference. Most people have said that they would still be gold medalists. With her compartment syndrome too that makes gold silver or gold gold impressive anyway.

    For so many in the US press and TV Plushenko became a very bad skater. Someone who offered nothing but jumps and poorly done jumps and wasn't that good at all. So his reputation was hurt by competing and losing in 2010. I am obviously considering just the US and Canada view here and not the EUropean one or any other place but In north America Plushenko not by his behavior but skating was seen as no-talent. That wasn't the case in 2002 or 2006- or not as much. He's never really been considered that amazing in north America but 2010 was definitely "he's so horrible!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    For so many in the US press and TV Plushenko became a very bad skater. Someone who offered nothing but jumps and poorly done jumps and wasn't that good at all. So his reputation was hurt by competing and losing in 2010. I am obviously considering just the US and Canada view here and not the EUropean one or any other place but In north America Plushenko not by his behavior but skating was seen as no-talent. That wasn't the case in 2002 or 2006- or not as much. He's never really been considered that amazing in north America but 2010 was definitely "he's so horrible!"
    Yeah, I think a lot of people disliked him in 2006, but begrudgingly accepted that he deserved his win... in 2010 the vibe was that he was awful, lucky to be on the podium at all, couldn't skate under the new system (and he won under that system in 2006!), so I think it hurt his reputation because people now had something where they could say "see, he does suck!" It's different for V&M I guess, judging from the reactions in this thread so far.

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    Nothing. They are still the first North American Olympic Gold Medalists.

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    Yes and no. I think V&M are already established as a top 5 dance team of all time, and D&W are close to that now as well. Not wining in Sochi would not change that, they would just lose the chance to be part of a historic feat (only team along with G&P to win 2 Olympic Golds). The thing that is now at stake is who will be regarded as the best of their era though. If Davis & White win the OGM they would have a real case as best of their era, which would mean V&M possibly losing that title. Especialy if D&W followed that up by winning their 3rd Worlds, then it would be a slam dunk as far as achievements goes (some may still prefer V&M for other reasons). As it is now both have 2 World titles, and D&W 4 times to 0 for V&M. Even for those who dont think the GPF is that big a deal not having it on your resume atleast once is still a significant hole, especialy when your main rival has won it 4 times already. Not having the OGM is a much bigger hole but in the hypothetical above that would have changed. Of course there is always next year for that too.

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