View Poll Results: Who is best overall technical skater ever

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  • Kim

    37 21.64%
  • Asada

    18 10.53%
  • Ito

    34 19.88%
  • Harding

    11 6.43%
  • Hamill

    12 7.02%
  • Biellmann

    12 7.02%
  • Kostner

    10 5.85%
  • Kwan

    9 5.26%
  • Yamaguchi

    2 1.17%
  • Sotnikova

    10 5.85%
  • Slutskaya

    15 8.77%
  • other (please specify)

    1 0.58%
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  1. #1
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    Who is the best overall technical skater ever

    Since the debate in the other thread was interesting, I thought a poll would be appropriate. Who do you consider the best OVERALL technical skater ever. That is factoring in jumps, jump combinations, spins, footwork, spirals, field moves, speed, basics, not just jumps. It is not factoring in any of the artistic aspects of skating, just the technical aspects.

  2. #2

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    You can't separate them. Things like field moves are not the "best" unless they're appropriate in the artistic and expressive context of a program. Otherwise they're just pointless flailing around, even if they are technically strong flailing.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  3. #3
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    My opinion is Kostner. Her only flaw was her mental toughness.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach View Post
    My opinion is Kostner. Her only flaw was her mental toughness.
    Having the worst spins in the top 10 today is not a weakness? And lack of mental toughness is hard to ignore when it means she is a very inconsistent jumper due to this, and someone who is a pretty good but hardly amazing overall jumper even on her best day, can hardly be called a strong jumper when she is mentally very weak and inconsistent on jumps due to that too. So basically the two most important technical elements- jumps and spins, she is highly suspect on both. Lastly the skate of her life in Sochi got only the 4th highest TES behind skaters who had mistakes (Sotnikova, Asada), and a very subpar (for her standards) Kim, and might have been 6th had Julia and Gold not fallen. You are entitled your opinion but looks very far from the best technical skater ever to me. Her strongest technical trait by far is her basics and overall speed, which are stronger factors in the 2nd mark (artistry, presentation, PCS) than 1st mark over the years anyway.

  5. #5
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    Asada -- has the highest number of the 3A recorded, better than Ito in spins and steps
    Ito -- the best pure jumper

    Harding -- her number of the 3A is too few, no 3-3

    ==wall of the 3A==

    Ando -- her lutz is one of the best, and the 4S...

    Slutskaya -- the first 3Lz-3Lo, change-foot Bielmann spins
    Sotnikova -- spins are superior to Ando

    Lipinski -- 3Lo-3Lo

    == wall of +3Lo combos ==

    too many

    ==wall of 5 different triples==

    Kim, Osmond, et al.

  6. #6
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    I voted for Ito because of consistency. So many 7 triple performances, the first ever by a woman IIRC and many that included a 3Axel. Her spins were fast and had decent positions and she zipped across the rink like a humming bird.

    Slutskaya and Harding are next for me. Slutskaya had difficulty in all of her technical elements for sure, but they were not often performed with the utmost security or ease. Harding's jumps are the purest of anyone I can think of and her spins were great, too. Unfortunately, she did not pull them off as consistently as Ito.

    I would place Kim in the top 5 or 6 for sure, but lol@ her leading and probably winning this poll...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I voted for Ito because of consistency. So many 7 triple performances, the first ever by a woman IIRC and many that included a 3Axel. Her spins were fast and had decent positions and she zipped across the rink like a humming bird.

    Slutskaya and Harding are next for me. Slutskaya had difficulty in all of her technical elements for sure, but they were not often performed with the utmost security or ease. Harding's jumps are the purest of anyone I can think of and her spins were great, too. Unfortunately, she did not pull them off as consistently as Ito.

    I would place Kim in the top 5 or 6 for sure, but lol@ her leading and probably winning this poll...
    Slutskaya with so many votes is a bigger joke than Kim leading the poll. Slutskaya should never be considered a better technical skater than Kim. She doesn't do anything better except possibly spins slightly. Kim is easily a better jumper. Compare the consistency and huge quality she does her difficult 3-3s with contrasted to Slutskaya who attempts them 1 times out of 5, lands them about 1 times out of 5 she even tries them, and usually high on the toe pick or cheated even then. If Slutskaya could borrow Kim's 3-3s for her own she would have 7 or 8 world or Olympic titles instead of only 2. When Irina needed a 3-3 to secure her win at events like the 2000 worlds, 2001 worlds, 2002 Olympics, 2006 Olympics, they werent there, but if she were Yu Na she would just snap her fingers and they would be there and she would have been champion of all those events. Both have powerful stroking, speed, and strong basics, but Kim's silent edging and quiet speed is a sharp contrast to back pumping and labored speed and choppy crossover of Irina.

    I wouldn't even considering Harding against Yu Na when she doesn't do anything better other than on a good day jumps, and even her jumps are so inconsistenet. Of the ones you mentiond only Ito would have a real case against Yu Na.

  8. #8
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    Slutskaya is absolutely superior to Kim. Irina made history by landing the first 3Lz-3Lo combo. I think the first 3-3-2 and the first two 3-3s FS belong to her. It's a sheer joke to call someone who can't do a 3loop the "best". I admit Kim is the best skater among those who can't do 7 triples programs though. If she was the best technically, how could she be beaten so soundly in Sochi? It's quite arrogant to assert "gold" with inferior base values, spins and footworks against the home favorite. The best skater should always win even without judges' favoritism.
    Last edited by NMURA; 07-12-2014 at 05:54 AM.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    It's a sheer joke to call someone who can't do a 3loop the "best".
    She can do 3 loop for god sake, she did but stop due to injury, what's wrong with that? She stop jump that and still dominate most of her competition, or do you want her continue to jump then injured herself then may just fall behind and can't compete forever???

    If she was the best technically, how could she be beaten so soundly in Sochi? It's quite arrogant to assert "gold" with inferior base values, spins and footworks against the home favorite. The best skater should always win even without judges' favoritism.
    And these are just nonsense yet familiar phrase, no wonder Yuna's fans are so crazy, because simply her anti just as much crazy. Why you guys keep bring that controversy resut to back up your opinion? The thing "be beaten so soundly" in your head is the reason why the winner is bullying & bashing & cursing all over the internet, do you know that? That's not a good reason to prove your opinion anyway

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVS View Post
    She can do 3 loop for god sake, she did but stop due to injury, what's wrong with that? She stop jump that and still dominate most of her competition, or do you want her continue to jump then injured herself then may just fall behind and can't compete forever???
    I don't know what "injury" means for sure. Please elaborate, if you can.

    How many times did Kim land the 3loop? Probably about 4 times. The last one is at 2007 Cup of Russia, and the last attempt was at 2009 4CC. Was she "injured" all through her career?

    I must say, "injury" is a very good excuse for athletes. If they won "regardless of injury", they would be praised as the best, and if they lost "because of injury", they could save their pride and reputations.

  11. #11
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    notable ladies skaters who constantly avoided 3Lo (but did other four triples)

    Suguri -- could do it when she was young
    Nakano -- could do it when she was young
    Osmond -- can't do
    Kim -- landed a few times

    The list might be shorter than ladies 3A jumpers.... Kim is definitely the best in this list.

  12. #12
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    Its to hard to rank skaters on jumps so i did my own pros and cons
    Kim - Pros: Huge Jumps Cons: 3 Loop, occasional lip
    Asada - Pros: 3A, Loop Combos Cons: Flutz, under-rotations, Consistency
    ito - Pros: Huge Jumps, 3A Cons: leg wrapping, lip
    Harding - Pros: Huge Jumps, 3A Cons: Inconsistent
    Kostner - Pros:Speed,Textbook technique Cons: Inconsistent
    Slutskaya-Pros: Huge Jumps,Loop combos Cons: Incocsistent, lip
    Kwan - Pros: Consistency Cons: Flutz, Lip, Small jumps


    Spins i would rank ( out of those who i did jumps)

    1: Asada
    2: Slutskaya
    3: Harding
    4: Kostner - Kwan
    6: Kim
    7: Ito

    Steps i would rank
    1:Kostner
    2:Kwan
    3:Asada
    4:Kim
    5:Harding
    6:Slutskaya
    7:Ito

    I like Yuna but no way should she be leading this poll. sure her lutz and flip is great but her other jumps are all mediocre and she can barely do a 3 loop.
    Ito sure has the best jumps, but spins and steps she severely lacks behind
    Asada had probably the hardest jump content but she has many flaws in those jumps
    slutskaya had great jumps and spins but was often a hot mess on the ice.
    Kostner has no obvious flaws except consistency.
    Harding had probably the biggest jumps behind ito but her consistency was way lower
    kwan was most consistent but had low jump content and flaws in technique

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    I don't know what "injury" means for sure. Please elaborate, if you can.

    How many times did Kim land the 3loop? Probably about 4 times. The last one is at 2007 Cup of Russia, and the last attempt was at 2009 4CC. Was she "injured" all through her career?

    I must say, "injury" is a very good excuse for athletes. If they won "regardless of injury", they would be praised as the best, and if they lost "because of injury", they could save their pride and reputations.
    What a weirdo you are She did 4 times or whatever is mean she can do it but stop, not mean she CAN'T. How the heck anyone can jump 3lz beautifully but can not for the easier one 3l???

    she was injured means she indeed was, she was diagnosed lumbar disc herniation during 2007 plus chronic hip disease, caused her serious pain all over her lower body. Is that freaking 3L really important for her to risk her own health???

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVS View Post
    How the heck anyone can jump 3lz beautifully but can not for the easier one 3l???
    That is not unreasonable at all. Some skaters are poor at edge jumps. Kim usually needs long preparation and sufficient "speed" before takeoff. I remember Suguri or Sebestyen are jumpers of a similar type. Kanako Murakami in youger generations. Simply put, the loop is not suitable for such "techniques". Her "injury" is probably due to her flawed techniques. I can imagine, sometimes big jumps with high speed could be potentially damaging to one's body, especially for someone skinny and inflexible like Kim.
    Last edited by NMURA; 07-12-2014 at 11:14 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVS View Post
    How the heck anyone can jump 3lz beautifully but can not for the easier one 3l???
    It happens all the times.

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    purple

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach View Post
    Its to hard to rank skaters on jumps so i did my own pros and cons
    Kim - Pros: Huge Jumps Cons: 3 Loop, occasional lip
    Asada - Pros: 3A, Loop Combos Cons: Flutz, under-rotations, Consistency
    ito - Pros: Huge Jumps, 3A Cons: leg wrapping, lip
    Harding - Pros: Huge Jumps, 3A Cons: Inconsistent
    Kostner - Pros:Speed,Textbook technique Cons: Inconsistent
    Slutskaya-Pros: Huge Jumps,Loop combos Cons: Incocsistent, lip
    Kwan - Pros: Consistency Cons: Flutz, Lip, Small jumps


    Spins i would rank ( out of those who i did jumps)

    1: Asada
    2: Slutskaya
    3: Harding
    4: Kostner - Kwan
    6: Kim
    7: Ito

    Steps i would rank
    1:Kostner
    2:Kwan
    3:Asada
    4:Kim
    5:Harding
    6:Slutskaya
    7:Ito

    I like Yuna but no way should she be leading this poll. sure her lutz and flip is great but her other jumps are all mediocre and she can barely do a 3 loop.
    Ito sure has the best jumps, but spins and steps she severely lacks behind
    Asada had probably the hardest jump content but she has many flaws in those jumps
    slutskaya had great jumps and spins but was often a hot mess on the ice.
    Kostner has no obvious flaws except consistency.
    Harding had probably the biggest jumps behind ito but her consistency was way lower
    kwan was most consistent but had low jump content and flaws in technique
    In terms of jumps alone:

    Ito
    Pros: Best 3A, powerful jumps, technique/quality (height, overall trajectory, speed)
    Cons: Unattractive leg wrap, 3F edge is unclear

    Kim
    Pros: Best 3-3, powerful toe jumps, quality (overall trajectory, speed, air position)
    Cons: Missing 3lo, 3F's outside edge is very slight

    Asada
    Pros: 3A/Full repertoire of triples, quality (air position), difficulty of content
    Cons: Flutz, 3F technique, under-rotations, inconsistency

    Kostner
    Pros: Technique/quality (overall trajectory, speed, take-offs)
    Cons: Extreme inconsistency, telegraphing

    Kwan
    Pros: Consistency
    Cons: Quality (edges, trajectory, speed), low difficulty

    Harding
    Pros: 3A, quality (height, overall trajectory, speed)
    Cons: Extreme inconsistency

    Slutskaya
    Pros: 3-3, difficulty of content
    Cons: Technique/quality (quite messy, inconsistency, landing through sheer will power(?))

    Spins seem tricky to compare between the two judging systems. Considering the entirety of their careers Kostner should be below both Kwan and Kim. Prior to this quad, Kim's spins were one of the best by COP standards. Ugly lower-body aside, her balance, edges, and speed were above most ladies. Mao has always had superior positions that actually got better with time, but looking only at what her blade is doing on the ice she isn't particularly superior (even to Kim, back in 09-10).

    Ultimately this depends on how you juggle the strengths vs weaknesses, actual performance vs performance potential, etc. You can say that Asada is technically the GOAT bc of what she's capable of doing--she absolutely can perform her jumps without under-rotations and edge calls at her best. But then you might as well say that Kim is capable of doing a 3Lo * and ignore Kostner's lack of conditioning for consistency. Add in the 6.0 era-trained skaters and MORE assumptions have to be made.

    * Putting this 3Lo business to rest--Kim was seen doing the jump even in the weeks leading to Vancouver. The problem is that the jump aggravates her back too much to risk consistently training--hence why she no longer included it in her programs. Edge jumps for Kim are more a matter of physicalities than technique bc she has a chronically misaligned spine and hip problem. Whether she "can" or "can't" do a 3Lo is up to interpretation (imo, "can't" is more accurate).
    Last edited by begin34; 07-12-2014 at 11:52 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach View Post
    1: Asada
    2: Slutskaya
    3: Harding
    4: Kostner - Kwan
    6: Kim
    7: Ito

    Steps i would rank
    1:Kostner
    2:Kwan
    3:Asada
    4:Kim
    5:Harding
    6:Slutskaya
    7:Ito
    Just crazy. Kostner and Kwan better spins than Kim or Ito? Harding better steps than Slutskaya and Ito!?! Real rankings:

    Spins
    1. Slutskaya
    2. Asada
    3. Kim
    4. Harding and Ito (tied)

    -----large gap

    6. Kostner
    7. Kwan


    Steps
    1. Kim
    2. Kwan and Slutskaya
    4. Kostner
    5. Ito (everyone thus far, Ito included are excellent in this category)
    6. Asada

    ------huge gap-----

    7. Harding (she pretty much sucked at footwork)


    Spirals
    1. Kwan
    2. Asada
    3. Kim
    4. Kostner
    5. Slutskaya
    6. Harding
    7. Ito


    Solo jumps
    1. Ito (due to her much superior consistency, especialy with the 3axel than Harding, even though Harding had much nicer jumps when she did them IMO)
    2. Harding
    3. Kim
    -----huge gap----
    4. Slutskaya
    5. Asada (only due to 3axel)
    6. Kostner
    ----huge gap----
    7. Kwan (she was a very good jumper, just not a rival to any of these others)


    Combination jumps
    1. Kim (no brainer with the number of amazing 3 lutz-3 toe and 3 flip-3 toes she did over the years)
    2. Ito (Kostner and Slutskaya chose to do harder 3-3s and combinations but they were so infrequent)
    3. Slutskaya
    4. Kostner
    5. Asada (very inconsistent, but did do some 3 axel-2 toes, 3 flip- 3 toes and other hard combinations)
    6. Harding (only ever did a 3 toe-3 toe and even it was infrequent)
    7. Kwan


    Basics
    1. Kostner
    2. Kim
    3. Harding and Ito (tied)
    5. Kwan
    6. Slutskaya (good edges and basics, but noisier and more work than the ones above)
    -----large gap----
    7. Asada (she isn't bad at all, but the others are just so great)


    Speed
    1. Kostner
    2. Kim
    3. Ito and Harding (tied)
    5. Slutskaya
    6. Kwan
    7. Asada


    Field moves
    really no idea how to rank them here but Harding and Kwan had the most and the best ones of this group IMO.
    Last edited by rollingrace; 07-12-2014 at 02:29 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by begin34 View Post
    Spins seem tricky to compare between the two judging systems. Considering the entirety of their careers Kostner should be below both Kwan and Kim. Prior to this quad, Kim's spins were one of the best by COP standards. Ugly lower-body aside, her balance, edges, and speed were above most ladies. Mao has always had superior positions that actually got better with time, but looking only at what her blade is doing on the ice she isn't particularly superior (even to Kim, back in 09-10).

    Ultimately this depends on how you juggle the strengths vs weaknesses, actual performance vs performance potential, etc. You can say that Asada is technically the GOAT bc of what she's capable of doing--she absolutely can perform her jumps without under-rotations and edge calls at her best. But then you might as well say that Kim is capable of doing a 3Lo * and ignore Kostner's lack of conditioning for consistency. Add in the 6.0 era-trained skaters and MORE assumptions have to be made.

    * Putting this 3Lo business to rest--Kim was seen doing the jump even in the weeks leading to Vancouver. The problem is that the jump aggravates her back too much to risk consistently training--hence why she no longer included it in her programs. Edge jumps for Kim are more a matter of physicalities than technique bc she has a chronically misaligned spine and hip problem. Whether she "can" or "can't" do a 3Lo is up to interpretation (imo, "can't" is more accurate).
    Kostner's spinning peak was Sochi, while Kim's had declined a huge amount since her peak in 2008-2010, and Kim's much declined spins even then were atleast equal or better. Kostner had poor spins most of her career, and only improved them to the point of adequate at the very end. At one point she had a layback and camel spin that Dick button nearly croaked his coffee out for each time.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by rollingrace View Post
    J
    Steps
    1. Kim
    2. Kwan and Slutskaya
    4. Kostner
    5. Ito (everyone thus far, Ito included are excellent in this category)
    6. Asada

    ------huge gap-----

    7. Harding (she pretty much sucked at footwork)
    I really hope this is a joke that you're putting Asada in 6th place for steps. And Kostner behind slutskaya ??????? Your Crazy

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