View Poll Results: Butyrskaya vs Suguri- who was the better skater

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  • Butyrskaya

    76 67.26%
  • Suguri

    37 32.74%
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  1. #21
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    Maria Butyrskaya gets my vote. Mature, elegant and when she was on, she was very much on. Don't get me wrong, Fumie was/is very talented, but she just didn't have the same charisma or finesse.

  2. #22
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    Many of you are justifying your votes for Maria with oh she won the 1999 Worlds, so she is better. Sorry but that is piss poor logic. Why? The only reason she won that World title is Michelle Kwan fell and had so many mistakes. I am not saying Maria didnt deserve it, she skated the best that event so deserved to take the gold medal, but her winning that World title shouldnt be basis for her being the better skater when she only won it since someone else had a bad competition. Had Michelle Kwan had a bad competition one of the years Fumie was in it she would be a World Champion too maybe. That doesnt show she is less of a skater.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DimaToe View Post
    ...Wasn't there a poll exactly like this one not so long ago?
    As the wise sage Celine Dion says, "a new month...has come".
    It's official. I am madly in love with Meryl Davis.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    Bute easily gets my vote. She was a much better skater than given credited for even though I was never a huge fan myself.
    Agreed

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    Many of you are justifying your votes for Maria with oh she won the 1999 Worlds, so she is better. Sorry but that is piss poor logic. Why? The only reason she won that World title is Michelle Kwan fell and had so many mistakes. I am not saying Maria didnt deserve it, she skated the best that event so deserved to take the gold medal, but her winning that World title shouldnt be basis for her being the better skater when she only won it since someone else had a bad competition. Had Michelle Kwan had a bad competition one of the years Fumie was in it she would be a World Champion too maybe. That doesnt show she is less of a skater.
    Maria did not win the 1999 Worlds since Kwan made mistakes. She made it since she kicked ass. Kwan's LP was pretty good actually, her only mistakes were a single axel and a step out of her first triple lutz. She still didnt get a single 1st place vote, so even had she skated cleanly she might not have won.

    Anyway who cares, Fumie won all her World medals since others made mistakes. 2002 World bronze only since Sasha fell three times. 2003 World bronze only since Sasha fell three times. 2006 World silver since only since Sasha and Joannie messed up. Atleast Maria didnt need mistakes to win any of her World medals, even had the whole field skated perfectly she would have medalled at all of the 98, 99, and 2000 Worlds. Had she herself not bombed her Q round she would have medalled in 2001 too, and would have medalled in 96 and 97 if she had one less mistake. Maria would have defended her title in 2000 had she landed 1 of her 2 triple salchows as that would have been certain to beat Slutskaya in the LP which is all she needed to win overall. Fumie needed others to mess up to even ever win a medal, let alone win. So if you want to go there Fumie is even worse by comparision.

    Fumie in her shining moments at Worlds couldnt even beat Sokolova and Meissner for a silver or gold medal. Wow impressive. Beating even a bad Michelle Kwan has her beat easily.

  6. #26
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    I never saw Maria skate live, but I did see Fumie the year she won the GPF in Colorado Springs. The thing that stands out is how she was still flying at the end of her program, hardly appearing out of breath at all, while so many other skaters looked like they could barely make it off the ice after their programs. Has nothing to do with this poll, just something that struck me. She made it look so light and effortless, even at that altitude.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabybackhand View Post
    Anyway who cares, Fumie won all her World medals since others made mistakes. 2002 World bronze only since Sasha fell three times. 2003 World bronze only since Sasha fell three times. 2006 World silver since only since Sasha and . . .
    ". . . since Sasha fell . . . since Sasha fell . . . since Sasha . . ."

    You are building a pretty good argument that Fumie was a better competitor than Sasha
    Last edited by bardtoob; 04-21-2013 at 11:41 PM.

  8. #28
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    You are right. Fumie was a decent competitor, and definitely a better competitor than the girl nicknamed SashaSplat. However Sasha was the much better skater, hence why she still beat Sasha more often than not, and still had the better career with more achievements, medals, and titles, despite being the much weaker competitor.

    I think you are missing my point though. My point is not that Fumie didnt deserve to beat Sasha those times or win those medals. My point was I was replying to someone who said Maria only won the 99 Worlds since Michelle Kwan had a bad event so it doesnt count or something. That is really stupid especialy in a comparision to Fumie, as Fumie was the queen of winning medals only through others falls and mistakes. I doubt there is a single Worlds she could have medalled with everyone skating cleanly, and she didnt even skate cleanly herself in any of them, just adequately well. So by the dumb logic Maria was lucky somehow to win her World title, Fumie would have been lucky to win all her World medals.

    Atleast Maria didnt need mistakes to medal at the events she medalled at, she was going to medal at the 99 and 2000 Worlds and many other events even if everyone skated lights out, unless she fell three times or more. Maria also skated well enough to have won the 99 Worlds unless Michelle Kwan skated amazingly well, and would have won her World title back in 2000 if she just done 1 of the 2 triple salchows she missed (she only needed 2nd in the long and that would have been enough). She would have won the 98 Olympic bronze had she just done 1 of the 4 triples she either missed or doubled, while there is no Olympics Fumie could have won a medal in.

    Everyone knew Maria could compete with, and possibly even beat, Michelle or Irina or anyone if she skated her best, she just rarely did. However with Fumie you never said that, you knew she couldnt beat any of the top skaters unless they really messed up. Maria was super inconsistent but she has also done numerous 7 triple programs, and Fumie has never done one, in fact I cant even remember a 6 triple program although she might have done 1 or 2 in her career at some point. Maria also had a gorgeous triple lutz and triple loop, just textbook, while Fumie had a bad flutz and couldnt even do a triple loop. In artistic quality there is no comparision between them. Maria at her best was a 5.9 artistic skater with beautiful lines, maturity, great choreography, polish, while Fumie was at best a 5.7 artistic skater as she sorely lacked in extention, beauty, pumped her back ala Slutskaya in crossovers, and couldnt even straighten her leg properly. Fumie did have some great programs, her 2006 short program was my favorite of the season, and her Moonlight Sonata in 02 and 2005 and 2007 long programs were great. She also had great spring in some of her jumps and her death drop spin, some fast (albeit sloppy) spins, and some basic skating, speed, and edges. However Maria overall is easily the better overall technician who tried harder technical programs, much better artist, and on her good days although more sparatic a more deadly competitor, which makes her the better skater for me.


    Lastly interesting to look how they did head to head. At the 2002 Olympics they were virtually equal with Fumie barely finishing in front, although Maria placed 2 spots higher in the short and was in the final flight instead of Fumie. This was a 30 year old Maria way past her prime vs Fumie in arguably one of her peak years though. Yet they were about the same. Fall of 2000 and 2001 Maria had much better results, and even then Fumie was the one coming into her prime and Maria aging out of hers. Prime to prime Maria would come out on top most times and have the better results and higher rank of the two. Maria competed in a way tougher era. She faced prime Kwan, prime Slutskaya, prime Lipinski, Lu Chen, Sarah Hughes, Surya Bonaly, and others. Suguri competed in an era with an old past her prime Kwan, an old and mostly ill Slutskaya, a crazy inconsistent Arakawa, and headcase Sasha. Had Maria been in her prime in that era instead she probably would have won more than 1 Worlds but Fumie still couldnt win even one.

  9. #29
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    I love them both and think they were both underrated/underscored at times. I wish they could have ended their competitive careers on higher notes.

  10. #30
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    Both stayed in too long, and that is why they didnt end their careers on a higher note. Maria should have seen the writing on the wall after the judges dropped her below Hughes at the 2001 Worlds but unwisely continued. I think she should have even considering going pro after she lost her World title in 2000.

    Suguri should have retired after the 2006-2007 season which she continued for to try for World at home, and atleast her 2nd last season would have been a really strong one.

  11. #31
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    Well to be fair to Butryskaya, she beat Hughes in the LP at 2001 Worlds. If anything was a sign that she lost favor, it was the 2000 NHK Trophy.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Well to be fair to Butryskaya, she beat Hughes in the LP at 2001 Worlds. If anything was a sign that she lost favor, it was the 2000 NHK Trophy.
    The 2000-2001 season was a strange one for Maria. When it seemed the judges wanted to reward her she skated poorly and missed the opportunity, or even was held up; and when she skated well it is when they werent ready to reward her. Going through her events:

    Trophee de France- turned out in between her combination jump in the SP and still got 7 5.9s for presentation. Stated kind of a crummy LP with a fall and many mistakes and was given the win easily with scores up to 5.8 in technical and 5.9s in presentation. ABC thought Kirk should have won although that is probably silly as she skated well but was still a little girl with itty bitty jumps and no speed back then.

    NHK- was hosed.

    Grand Prix final- By how the judges scored her it seems they were willing to give her the win here, especialy as neither Slutskaya or Kwan skated spectacularly. However she flawed out badly and worse with every program. In the SP she fell on an underrotated triple flip and was generously scored with mostly 5.4s for elements and 5.8s for presentation (Kwan who skated perfectly with the same jumps had mostly 5.7s and some 5.6s for elements and 5.7s and 5.8s for presentation). Her first LP was poor with only 3 triples and kept her out of the Super final, then a horrendous 2nd LP with like only 1 clean triple saw Hughes beat her in the bronze medal match.

    Worlds- A combination of being hosed in the SP where she placed 5th and a really bad qualifying skate kept her off the podium. Her SP performance paled in comparision to her 2000 Worlds winning SP but was still good enough for 3rd or 4th over Hughes, which would have given her the bronze. Had she just skated decently in the qualifying that would have been enough to. Still there were some signs of support for her from some judges, a couple judges had her 2nd in the SP over a clean Kwan (her oridinals ranged from 2nd to 7th while Nikidinov who came 2 places above her in the SP in 3rd only had ordinals from 3rd to 8th), and a few judges placed her over Slutskaya's super difficult LP even with a doubled 2nd triple lutz, some shaky landings, and no true triple-triple.


    I think she gradually lost favor with inconsistent skating, which made the judges more willing to see some new people near the top, and it wasnt going to be at the expense of Irina or Michelle who continued to skate consistently, and her NHK defeat made her lose heart and willingness to fight as hard as well.

  13. #33
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    And Maria was the European Champion in 2002 beating Irina. It was a not very well skated competition, but for that title I think she's glad she stayed. Besides it's really rare for skaters to retire one season before the Olympics. Most of them try to endure the pains and prolongue their careers till the biggest competition, and in Maria's mind, although being 4th in 2001 Worlds, she probably thought she was in a good position for an Olympic medal

  14. #34

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    They were both good skaters, but I found Maria's programs and skating more interesting compared to Fumie, who I always found boring. Also Fumie never won a world title. Maria did, and she also won the Europeans which is quite prestigious.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinhood View Post
    Artistically and musically I think Maria was better. She had lots of musicality and created her own style and image on the ice. The presence of Maria (the woman) was evident against the "little girls" in Nagano and so on
    Skating skills-wise there is no colour, IMHO. Suguri is the typical japanese skater with great speed, soft edges, very good ice coverage and a fluid stroking. She had great jumping technique (apart from flutzing) and great rotation speed in the spins
    Maria was more statuesque and Fumie was more fluid. I enjoyed Maria much more when on, because I felt she was an artist
    This.
    My vote goes to Fumie for her solid skating skills. While i agree she was not as musical as Maria, i still think she was strong enough in her interpretive abilities to allow for her skating skills to give her the edge. Love both these women, though.

  16. #36
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    If by better you mean skating by the true definition of pure basic skating skills than Suguri probably.
    If you define better by superior athletic ability, technique, artistry, and overall performance level than Butyrskaya.

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