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  1. #261
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    Regarding Lori's work for Zijun Li....

    There is no actual danger in recycling music and choreographic cliches when properly done. Neither is there any ethical dilemma, especially when done by the same choreographer.

    It can even be fresh or inventive.

    Do I think that Zijun Li’s short program is fresh and inventive? No. However, I do believe that it is done properly to suit Li’s abilities at the moment.

    At this stage of development, Li's artistic priority should be to establish an artistic identity. Lori seems to have chosen to go with a more conventional yet style molding choreography rather then with a ground breaking one, perhaps reflecting Li’s abilities right now.

    It is every choreographer’s dream to see his/her creation performed by a great skater. Every choreographers puts more thoughts and time into a program for such a skater. It , however, doesn’t mean that choreographers thoughtlessly mass-produce generic programs for lesser skaters. But, not every program may be thoughtful and inventive since lesser skaters often cannot handle more complex, inventive programs to begin with.

    Li obviously is one of the most talented in her peer group. But, I do not think she is yet to be considered as a great skater.

    Olympic champions have an iconic status though fleeting. And, Yuna Kim arguably is the most influential Olympic champion since Kat Witt. It is quite understandable that Li wants to be like Yuna Kim. But, I do not think Li’s overall skating and artistic approach truly resemble those of Yuna Kim’s. Arguably resembling a bit more those of Mao Asada’s, which is not bad considering popularity of Mao Asada here in FSU. And, Lori has been great for Mao Asada.

    Figure skaters are not dancers on ice. They are merely utilizing aesthetic overtones derived from dancing, classic or modern or contemporary, and acting. Skaters’ exposure to the aesthetic disciplines is limited -- in comparison with real dancers, that is -- in general, which is why choreographers often play a critical role in developing skaters artistically. The collaboration between Lori and Li should be viewed as a long term project. I think Lori is good for Li in terms of molding Li's artistry.

  2. #262
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    Let's not kid ourselves. Lori Nichol sees Li Zijun for a week or two, makes sure the latter learns the steps and movements, and then Li goes home to practice her jumps and looks at videos to make sure she doesn't forget where to flick a hand or raise an arm. What "developing skaters artistically" can anyone do in this kind of exchange? It's a business.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jun Y View Post
    Let's not kid ourselves. Lori Nichol sees Li Zijun for a week or two, makes sure the latter learns the steps and movements, and then Li goes home to practice her jumps and looks at videos to make sure she doesn't forget where to flick a hand or raise an arm. What "developing skaters artistically" can anyone do in this kind of exchange? It's a business.
    Lori has already worked with Li before. And, Lori has choreographed both SP and LP for this season.

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by key65man View Post
    Regarding Lori's work for Zijun Li....

    There is no actual danger in recycling music and choreographic cliches when properly done. Neither is there any ethical dilemma, especially when done by the same choreographer.

    It can even be fresh or inventive.

    Do I think that Zijun Li’s short program is fresh and inventive? No. However, I do believe that it is done properly to suit Li’s abilities at the moment.

    At this stage of development, Li's artistic priority should be to establish an artistic identity. Lori seems to have chosen to go with a more conventional yet style molding choreography rather then with a ground breaking one, perhaps reflecting Li’s abilities right now.

    It is every choreographer’s dream to see his/her creation performed by a great skater. Every choreographers puts more thoughts and time into a program for such a skater. It , however, doesn’t mean that choreographers thoughtlessly mass-produce generic programs for lesser skaters. But, not every program may be thoughtful and inventive since lesser skaters often cannot handle more complex, inventive programs to begin with.

    Li obviously is one of the most talented in her peer group. But, I do not think she is yet to be considered as a great skater.

    Olympic champions have an iconic status though fleeting. And, Yuna Kim arguably is the most influential Olympic champion since Kat Witt. It is quite understandable that Li wants to be like Yuna Kim. But, I do not think Li’s overall skating and artistic approach truly resemble those of Yuna Kim’s. Arguably resembling a bit more those of Mao Asada’s, which is not bad considering popularity of Mao Asada here in FSU. And, Lori has been great for Mao Asada.

    Figure skaters are not dancers on ice. They are merely utilizing aesthetic overtones derived from dancing, classic or modern or contemporary, and acting. Skaters’ exposure to the aesthetic disciplines is limited -- in comparison with real dancers, that is -- in general, which is why choreographers often play a critical role in developing skaters artistically. The collaboration between Lori and Li should be viewed as a long term project. I think Lori is good for Li in terms of molding Li's artistry.
    I agree completely.

  5. #265
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    The above posts seem to imply Ms Nichol thinks the best way to develop a new and immature skater is to have her imitate other skaters she had worked with before. I don't, but then I'm not a famous choreographer getting paid 20K a program.

  6. #266

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moka-Ananas View Post
    He said he skated his new SP in some shows in Korea. Any videos perhaps?
    Voronov skated at Bolshoi on Ice shows in Korea. http://2013bolshoi.blog.me/40186086191 Unfortunately I couldn't find any videos of his new SP on youtube.I just found the video of closing and you can recognize him around 2:30. http://www.youtube.com/watch?client=....be&nomobile=1

    I know Gachinski skated his new program, Anna Karenina, at Bolshoi shows, too. I couldn't find it on youtube, either. Hopefully someone recorded and post them.

  7. #267

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    Quote Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
    I know Gachinski skated his new program, Anna Karenina, at Bolshoi shows, too. I couldn't find it on youtube, either. Hopefully someone recorded and post them.
    A tumblr video was posted earlier in this thread: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...=1#post3916870
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  8. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    A tumblr video was posted earlier in this thread: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...=1#post3916870
    Thank you, Sylvia. I haven't noticed that post. Gachinski looks good in shape and I can't wait to see the program at the competitions.

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jun Y View Post
    The above posts seem to imply Ms Nichol thinks the best way to develop a new and immature skater is to have her imitate other skaters she had worked with before. I don't, but then I'm not a famous choreographer getting paid 20K a program.
    Sorry if I gave you a wrong impression. I just didn’t imply that at all.

    Simply put, when you work with a skater on a consistent basis, you, as a choreographer, get to understand the artistic strengths of the skater and accordingly choreograph the programs. In so doing, a style or idiosyncrasies can emerge. Long-term collaboration often leads to that, and a choreographer plays a critical role in the process.

    The reason I mentioned Mao Asada is not to imply that Li needs to imitate Mao Asada artistically (regardless of developing a style or not) or to suggest that Lori would think that way -- I am not her -- but to show that Lori has successfully worked with a stylistically similar skater(s) before. Therefore, there is no reason to think that Lori may not be successful with Li.

  10. #270

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jun Y View Post
    The above posts seem to imply Ms Nichol thinks the best way to develop a new and immature skater is to have her imitate other skaters she had worked with before. I don't, but then I'm not a famous choreographer getting paid 20K a program.
    Well, I think Li's program is quite different from Mirai's and I feel Lori actually put more thought into the program than she did with Mirai. I also see marked improvement in her artistic expression - I'm impressed to see that there's actually some "dance" in her skating (particularly in the way she uses her arms and upper body) rather than just skating from one element to the next. So whatever they are doing it's paying off quite well IMO. I really like this program for her.

  11. #271
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    Zijun's EX is 100x better than that SP which is basically an exact copy of Mirai's SP from 2 years ago (which wasn't that great then, either, if I'm being perfectly honest). Zijun should ditch that program and turn her EX into a competitive program instead.

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Zijun's EX is 100x better than that SP which is basically an exact copy of Mirai's SP from 2 years ago (which wasn't that great then, either, if I'm being perfectly honest). Zijun should ditch that program and turn her EX into a competitive program instead.
    Could you elaborate how the two programs are exact copies of each other?

    Each program has some choreographic cliches that are part of almost every choreographer's vocabulary. Each has some choreographic idiosyncrasies particular to a choreographer, Lori in this case. Each program has similar jump placements due to the fact that the music is same. I am not talking about those.

    I am talking about overall approach, points of emphasis, taking into consideration each skater's strengths and weaknesses, etc.

    This is not intended to be confrontational. I am really curious.

  13. #273
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    To me it seemed as though it was the exact same cut of music. I think it's fine that skaters use the same pieces of music, but the exact same cut is a bit of a low blow, unless it's been several years since anyone has used it. The choreography in the beginning with all the arm movements was eerie similar to those Mirai did in the same program. Then the wrist flicks and transitions throughout the program I thought were basically the same as Mirai's program too.

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    To me it seemed as though it was the exact same cut of music. I think it's fine that skaters use the same pieces of music, but the exact same cut is a bit of a low blow, unless it's been several years since anyone has used it. The choreography in the beginning with all the arm movements was eerie similar to those Mirai did in the same program. Then the wrist flicks and transitions throughout the program I thought were basically the same as Mirai's program too.
    Thanks for the explanation. I do understand where you are coming from.

    But, if you look at other choreographers, you will see other types of cliches and idiosyncrasies they are fond of. But, their programs obviously differ in many aspects. In this case, the music is same; therefore, I do agree that it is arguable that they are similar.

    Nevertheless, I think that Li’s program is different from Nagasu’s in terms of choreographic complexity including points of articulation (articulating different and/or more parts of a body, often simultaneously), dynamic intensity, different lines and shapes requiring weight shifts, etc. The differences perhaps reflect the skaters' capabilities.

    Also, the original music is a short piece. The editing may not come with too much liberty.

    I am positive on Li's program though it is not necessarily a great one. Of course, it is up to each of us to determine how well it is done.

  15. #275

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jun Y View Post
    Let's not kid ourselves. Lori Nichol sees Li Zijun for a week or two, makes sure the latter learns the steps and movements, and then Li goes home to practice her jumps and looks at videos to make sure she doesn't forget where to flick a hand or raise an arm. What "developing skaters artistically" can anyone do in this kind of exchange? It's a business.
    It is still early in the season. Li will need time to develop the program. Li has a lot of potential. Will surely see more of her in future.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  16. #276

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    I agree that Li has great potential, I so enjoyed her skates at Worlds and look forward to her programs this year

  17. #277

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    Doppio Axel posted on its facebook page that Davis/White's Free Dance might be Sheherazade, according to a rumour.
    A grumpy Canadian will always be nicer than a polite Milanese

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    Doppio Axel posted on its facebook page that Davis/White's Free Dance might be Sheherazade, according to a rumour.


    PLEASE just be a rumor. What a disappointment that would be.

  19. #279

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post


    PLEASE just be a rumor. What a disappointment that would be.
    i totally agree, even though the music might be a perfect fit for them. but i would be disappointed too

  20. #280
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    Sheherezade, Carmen, Rach 2...it's only been a couple of months and we already have all our favorite musics set for next season

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