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  1. #21

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    If Ashley took out some choreography I don't blame her. If anything I think her presentation is overly choreographed.

    Credit where credit is due, I think Phillip Mills did a great job highlighting Ashley's strengths and really taking her to another level.

    I hope she continues to make similar strides with a new choreographer.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    Really? I thought he threw a hissy fit? I could be misremembering but I thought he complained to one of the European skating magazines about her taking out all the intricate details and just doing crossovers and jumps.
    You could be right but I never heard it. Dick Button most certainly made it a point of saying that the program was not really the work of Chris.lol

    Complain all you want, no choreographer works for free! Thats what I dont get. They were handsomely compensated for their work (if they werent then shame on them) and thats it! The skater can do whatever they want because THEY PAID FOR IT!!!

    it's just like the choreography that Liza T. put out. Neither program resemble what i'm used to seeing from David Wilson or Stephane Lambiel. Daisuke's free program looks more Morosov influenced than Shae Lynn. At the end of the day, choreographers do their work and can hope that it really reflects them. If it does not, they can surely do what Phillip did. Unfortunately, i dont think what he did for Ashley was so amazing that he should piss and moan. Now how Lori stayed silent while Kwan turned her novel concepts into last years choreography just to different music befuddles me. Morozov didnt mind because everything he did for her looked the damn same. It came to a point where the only thing that looked like something he would do was the steps but he cashed in on working with her and ultimately worked with two of the best female skaters the USA has ever produced in Kwan and Cohen... Phillip might just want to shut up before he's working for no one.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrett View Post
    Mirai...... goooooooo please........
    Um, as... flaky (sorry) as she's been of late, she seems MOST likely to change something and shrug her shoulders in his face. lol

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by arakwafan2006 View Post

    Complain all you want, no choreographer works for free! Thats what I dont get. They were handsomely compensated for their work (if they werent then shame on them) and thats it! The skater can do whatever they want because THEY PAID FOR IT!!!
    So he has to keep working with people who change his choreography even though he hates it? He doesn't wanna work with people who alter his work, he has the right to do so. What's the big deal?

    You see movie directors complain all the time about studios altering their visions and work to appease to the mainstream crowds, should they too keep quiet since they've being paid for it? Artists deserve to have their work presented to the world the way they see fit. and I don't buy into the argument that they only have that right if they work for free

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by midori View Post
    Hmm. So, perhaps Ashley's new coach is someone who cannot help tweaking choreography? Who will that be?
    Mishin? Obviously not gonna happen, but at least he'd get her to get a 3-3

  6. #26

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    Too bad! I thought Phillip Mills' choreography was the best thing Ashley had going on the past two seasons.

  7. #27
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    So, wait. Is Ashley still with Nicks??

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by arakwafan2006 View Post
    . She TOTALLY reworked Sarah K's choreography of her Olympic program in 2002 and you dont see any of them gridlocking Kwan out.
    Not publicly. But I have it good authority Sarah K was very pissed at how much MK watered down her choreography, and SK said she didn't want her name associated with the program.
    In my spare time, I like to interview figure skating legends.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by arakwafan2006 View Post
    . She TOTALLY reworked Sarah K's choreography of her Olympic program in 2002 and you dont see any of them gridlocking Kwan out.
    Not publicly. But I have it on good authority Sarah K was very pissed at how much MK watered down her choreography, and SK said she didn't want her name associated with the program.
    In my spare time, I like to interview figure skating legends.

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    Wagner swapped the placements of the 2axel and 3loop in the short after Nationals. Otherwise I don't see much obvious changes in her programs since Japan Open / Skate America. The steps in her long at WTT seemed different / simplified and the flourishes after the jumps were gone. But these are reasonable changes given the shaky second half of the season she has had.

  11. #31

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    I don't know if what Ashley put out there the past 2 seasons was true to Mills' choreographic vision, but I thought Ashley did a very admirable job with the choreography we saw and her presentation was very effective. These days, I would think any choreographer would be very happy with well-presented programs. I guess Mills expects more. Or the feeling of moving on was more mutual, and we really don't know the whole story. That's usually the case with break-ups ... in skating ... in life.

    O-

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    So he has to keep working with people who change his choreography even though he hates it? He doesn't wanna work with people who alter his work, he has the right to do so. What's the big deal?

    You see movie directors complain all the time about studios altering their visions and work to appease to the mainstream crowds, should they too keep quiet since they've being paid for it? Artists deserve to have their work presented to the world the way they see fit. and I don't buy into the argument that they only have that right if they work for free
    This. Great post.If something you worked on gets destroyed or changed drastically, why shouldn't you be upset? Payment or not, art is art. Alan Smithee exists for a reason.

  13. #33
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    Wagner, get thee to Braden Overett!

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by manleywoman View Post
    Not publicly. But I have it on good authority Sarah K was very pissed at how much MK watered down her choreography, and SK said she didn't want her name associated with the program.
    Not watering down so much as she completed changed a large part of the Goodwill Games version by Nationals. Perhaps the Goodwill Games version was already the watered down version? I love the potential shown in the Goodwill Games version of Scheherazade but IMO the innate problem of that program was the weird cuts and the rushed timing.

    Still, they did make a classic together in the Fields of Gold.

    In fact, I think Chris Dean should be much more mad at her - dumping the great Rush after 2 or 3 showings, and completely trashing Bolero.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by arakwafan2006 View Post
    This is music to my ears however because i personally believe that Phillips choreography was just not that great for Ashley. The transitions were not seamless and quite frankly there was a lot of stroking in her numbers that she paid for in her scores. The movements were at times disjointed and ACTUALLY the numbers looked BETTER as the season went on and modifications were made.
    Maybe that's the issue. Maybe what we are seeing is the reworked choreography and Mills is an unimpressed as you are with what ended up put out on the ice and how far it was from his original vision.

    Quote Originally Posted by arakwafan2006 View Post
    You could be right but I never heard it. Dick Button most certainly made it a point of saying that the program was not really the work of Chris.lol
    I heard it. And that's probably why Dick Button made such a point of saying that the choreography had been changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Wagner swapped the placements of the 2axel and 3loop in the short after Nationals. Otherwise I don't see much obvious changes in her programs since Japan Open / Skate America. The steps in her long at WTT seemed different / simplified and the flourishes after the jumps were gone. But these are reasonable changes given the shaky second half of the season she has had.
    We don't know what changes were made before that though.

    I find the whole thing perplexing though. It's highly unusual for a choreographer to *announce* that they aren't going to work with a skater any more. They generally just stop working with them. So this big announcement seems to serve only to dis Ashley and/or to distance himself from her programs as we saw them.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    His comment seems to really be dissing Ashley without trying to diss her. Skaters change programs over the season all the time. He is paid handsomely and gives this choreography to Ashley. It is hers to do with as she pleases. She couldn't have changed it that much, just looking back at her first competitions proves that it hasn't evolved that much. I understand he doesn't want his name attached to something if it is going to be totally different from what he intended but there is no evidence that happened here. I am really confused by this and he didn't need to make this kind of statement. It will only look that much more odd if he ends up working with Ashley's big US competition (Mirai, Gold, etc.).
    Regardless of what Mills had intended to say in this statement, what's so hard to understand with what you wrote above? If I had a lot of respect for my very own creation I wouldn't want my name attached to it if it has evolved to something that's not really mine (or worse yet, less than what I had originally intended it to be). I find the suggestion that him being paid handsomely means he should then compromise kind of offensive. It's not all about money.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    I find the whole thing perplexing though. It's highly unusual for a choreographer to *announce* that they aren't going to work with a skater any more. They generally just stop working with them. So this big announcement seems to serve only to dis Ashley and/or to distance himself from her programs as we saw them.
    Count me in as another one who is puzzled by the motivation for the announcement. The only slight difference here is that Mills is (or rather, was) in fact also one of Wagner's coaches.
    "I miss footwork that has any kind of a discernible pattern. The goal of a step sequence should not be for a skater to show the same ice coverage as a Zamboni and take about as much time as an ice resurface. " ~ Zemgirl, reflecting on a pre-IJS straight line sequence

  18. #38
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    Phillips Mills needs to stop whining, his choreography sucked anyway. Maybe Ashley can now go get some real choreography so that she might have a small chance of making the podium at olympics.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Regardless of what Mills had intended to say in this statement, what's so hard to understand with what you wrote above? If I had a lot of respect for my very own creation I wouldn't want my name attached to it if it has evolved to something that's not really mine (or worse yet, less than what I had originally intended it to be). I find the suggestion that him being paid handsomely means he should then compromise kind of offensive. It's not all about money.
    This isn't like you commissioned a painting from an artist and then proceed to add your own touches to the completed product. Competitive skating choreography has to be organic. The skater and coach must be able to make adjustments throughout the season in order for the skater to feel comfortable pulling off all of the technical elements. Let say Ashley doesn't feel comfortable doing the 3loop-2Axel sequence choreographed into her LP program by Mills, and she really wants to either eliminate it or change it so that she has a better chance of skating clean. Is Mills going to be so freaking anal-retentive about his work that he'll adamantly put his foot down and say "NO" and not care if Ashley has a high percentage of falling on that sequence? Mills has been involved with competitive skating long enough to know that choreography do change as the season progresses. If he doesn't want this to happen then he should stick to only doing pieces professional shows or groups like The Next Ice Age, for example, and stay away from competitive skaters altogether.

  20. #40

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    I agree, orbitz. There is a difference between art and competitive skating. Competitive skating is an athletic pursuit that showcases artistry, at its best. I think every choreographer has the prerogative to decide what they're willing to do and not do and who they're willing to work with and not work with. But, unless they're independently wealthy or have another way of earning money outside of choreographing competitive programs, they have to have some flexibility and support the athlete's goal. Otherwise, they may find opportunities to practice their craft few and far between.

    O-

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