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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    There did used to be a USFS cheesefest after Worlds, but I don't remember eligible skaters from other countries participating. There were pro skaters from other countries involved in some of these. (I remember a debate about USFS paying an appearance fee to Viktor Petrenko for participation in either the fall or spring USFS cheesefest.)
    Irina Slutskaya often went to the cheesefests.

  2. #122

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    IIRC, Suguri and Sokolova also took part in the cheesefests at some point. Arakawa certainly did.

  3. #123
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    I was in Bridgeport in 03 and in Providence in 04 and there were international skaters there...Plushy and Baboo were in Providence.

  4. #124

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    Patrick Chan complains about the time of World Team Trophy

    Then what was his excuse for the poor LP at Worlds? Should that competition be moved, as well?
    -Brian
    "Michelle would never be caught with sausage grease staining her Vera Wang." - rfisher

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    I agree that it must be difficult to find the motivation for this event. But Team USA bet Team Canada at all 3 WTT! Somehow they find the motivation to step up to the occasion and give their best for the Team (i.e. SB for Wagner, Gold, Chock/Bates). The Canadians have skaters at the same level, but they've been unable to find the necessary motivation for years. Maybe it's also a hint at the Olympic Team event...

  6. #126
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    Patrick Chan complains about the time of World Team Trophy

    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan26 View Post
    Maybe it's also a hint at the Olympic Team event...
    Hard to know at this time. Canada is stronger in Pairs and Mens. Ice Dance was more-or-less equal, and would be almost irrelevant since the difference would only be one point. The WTT tends to favour the Singles event, since there is double the opportunity to accumulate points compared to Pairs and Ice Dance. The US had Ashley and Gracie near the top, while Kaetlyn finished in the middle of the pack, and Daleman was near the bottom. That two ladies skater gap is what likely gave the US the lead this year.

    At the Olympics team event, there will only be "one" lady and mens skater. Although the US lady may likely open a point gap between Kaetlyn (assuming Joannie does not return), it will need to be large enough to compensate for any accumulated point gaps Canada opens in Mens and Pairs. As mentioned, Ice Dance is almost irrelevant who wins.

    ...of course, don't discount Russia and Japan.

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    Why not let Chan videotape his SP and FS and send it to all his international competitions (GP, GPF, 4CC/Olympics/Worlds/WTT) and the ISU can just mail him his gold medals? Of course, then he'd complain about the postage....

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    Then what was his excuse for the poor LP at Worlds? Should that competition be moved, as well?
    Oh if only you'd been a reporter in the zone.

  9. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by rvi5 View Post
    At the Olympics team event, there will only be "one" lady and mens skater. Although the US lady may likely open a point gap between Kaetlyn (assuming Joannie does not return), it will need to be large enough to compensate for any accumulated point gaps Canada opens in Mens and Pairs. As mentioned, Ice Dance is almost irrelevant who wins.

    .
    ..not to mention there will be an Italian lady, a German pair..in the SP at least..that puts weaker entries one further point away from their competition.
    ...also in the FP...with only 5 countries remaining in the competition... a lesser entry from a top 5 country will not be worse than 5th in the Free..(eg a weak Japanese pair would be 5th in the FP...or only 3 points below 2nd place ..not 8 points below 2nd place)...that may be an even bigger difference from the current WTT structure

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by screech View Post
    I thought that V/M didn't have to go because Canada had another dance team place in the top 10 at worlds. If they had been the only team in the top 10, then they would have had to attend. Same reason why David/White didn't have to attend. On that same note, Chan and Reynolds both had to attend because there were no other Canucks in the top 10.

    Or am I just completely making that up. It happens sometimes
    If one or more of the best-ranked skaters refuses to participate, the ISU can exclude the team, which they haven't done to date. There is a clause that says that if a singles skater places Top 10 at WC and is one of the two highest-ranked (WS) skaters from that country, or if a team places Top 10 at WC and is the highest-ranked (WS) team from that country, the skater can't do shows, exhibitions, or competitions from the Monday after WC's through 15 April 2013 (tomorrow). The ISU also can also apply sanctions, which, as far as I know, they haven't.

    That doesn't mean that a team that is Top 10 at WC's and the second-ranked (WS) team is a valid substitute for the team that didn't participate. It just means that countries have gotten away with it -- i.e., the ISU hasn't sanctioned them, at least to date -- and the ISU might accept a teams like C/B and W/P in place of D/W and V/M. W/P and C/B's scores weren't even used to calculate team eligibility: only V/M and DW's were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    If Chan didn't want to go, Canada could have sent Reynolds (5th at the just completed Worlds).
    They did. He was 3rd in Men's, and he earned 10 points for Team Canada.

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Someone mentioned upthread that Trankov also would have preferred not to go, so I'm thinking the Russians could have sent Kavaguti/Smirnov or Bazarova/Larionov (6th and 7th at Worlds).
    I'm not sure what K/S's health is like, but Bazarova is still recovering from something Mozer alluded to when she said she'd take the team on. B/L are the second-ranked (WS) Russian team, and if the ISU is allowing substitutes unofficially (by not playing the sanctions game) when the team is Top 10 at WC and ranked second in WS from that countries -- like B/L at last year's WTT -- they wouldn't have been able to participate for health reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    But the German pair is not there, nor are Ten and Fernandez, so obviously that is not everyone's logic.
    They could have been summoned to do the gala, and at least Ten was, but Germany, Kazakhstan and Spain didn't qualify teams for the event, so those countries had no strategy at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Maybe it's simply that USFS does not make skaters go who do not want to be there while other feds do (excepting skaters with injury issues). Do Canada and Russia simply take this event more seriously and make more of an effort to win or at least place well?
    V/M didn't participate this year, and B/L participated last year, so no. Canada sent the top two Men, the top Pair, the second-ranked Dance team, and the Top Ladies skater plus a newbie. (Although Lacoste's GP and 4C's placements were used to quality the Canadian team, she wasn't chosen, but there isn't a front-runner now for the second Ladies' spot in Canada.) Russia gave Kovtun another opportunity, gave the second dance spot to a young team (M/K, who were lower-ranked than I/K -- not in shape -- and R/T -- and V/T went this time. The US had no obligation to send Miner; they sent top-ranked (WS) Abbott and Aaron, who placed Top 10 and highest at Worlds, along with C/B, who won dance, and Wagner and Gold, along with the National Champion Pairs team.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 04-15-2013 at 03:32 AM.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe View Post
    Why not let Chan videotape his SP and FS and send it to all his international competitions (GP, GPF, 4CC/Olympics/Worlds/WTT) and the ISU can just mail him his gold medals? Of course, then he'd complain about the postage....

  12. #132
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    They could have been summoned to do the gala, and at least Ten was, but Germany, Kazakhstan and Spain didn't qualify teams for the event, so those countries had no strategy at all.
    You misunderstood my point. I was talking about US strategy vs Canadian and Russian. I started why wondering if USFS let D/W stay home and rest because V/M were staying home and resting. Then, I observed that some of Chan's main OGM rivals (Ten and Fernandez) were not at the Team event either, but Canada was not following the logic of resting their skater if his competitors were resting, nor did the Russians let their top pair rest even though their main OGM rivals, the German pair were resting.

    In the end, I am inclined to think it was mostly just a case of USFS not wanting to force skaters somewhere they didn't want to be.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceIceBaby View Post
    Maybe the big Japanese stars could still somehow compete at this event even though they are "retired"? I'm sure the Japanese Fed could fix the rules so. And people would buy even more tickets cause it would be a unique opportunity to see for example Mao competing again?
    There are provisos in the ISU regs now for open events with both eligible & ineligible skaters (like the Japan Open). Perhaps the host federation could apply for permission to hold the team event as an open.

    I think it kind of depends on what the ISU decides to do with the team event. It seems to me, if they want to paint it as a legitimate Olympic event, then it also ought to be part of Worlds, not a separate event held a continent away weeks later, under different rules than used at the Olympics.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    That's not been my impression at all. A lot of professional athletes train hard and play through pain and injury. Just a few days ago my favorite team (baseball, not NBA, FWIW) put a top player on the DL and he was very upset about not being allowed to play. If anything pro athletes sometimes rush their return and try to play through too much pain. Yes there are sometimes complaints about officiating, because they care about the ourcome! Though you also have situations like Armando Galaraga's 28-out perfect game. I don't know how you got this impression but IMO it's really off.
    Exactly.

    And I have been watching baseball since birth basically and have NEVER seen cameras in the losing team's locker room at the World Series. But making stuff up always makes for a good argument.

    All sports are grueling and being at the top requires year round training. I don't know why it is necessary to prove that skating is somehow harder than other sports.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    I bet the timing wouldn't have been a problem if he won.
    I disagree. I believe at this stage the World Team Trophy is an artificial and inconsequential event. It makes Canadians like Chan have to compete at an event that few if any of the competitors really care about. It reminds me of when the ISU had the cruel idea of making skaters perform two different free programs at the grand prix final. It is another chance for the ISU to try to market/sell another product at the skaters' expense. The skaters should complain. The ISU shouldn't create more work for skaters just because it makes the ISU potentially more money or more opportunities for them to patronize federations. Maybe the WTT will eventually be interesting, but I sympathize with any star who speaks out against the scheduling and other inconveniences it poses.

    I would have the WTT be an early season event, at least until it develops into something more important.
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 04-15-2013 at 04:49 AM.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    You misunderstood my point. I was talking about US strategy vs Canadian and Russian. I started why wondering if USFS let D/W stay home and rest because V/M were staying home and resting. Then, I observed that some of Chan's main OGM rivals (Ten and Fernandez) were not at the Team event either, but Canada was not following the logic of resting their skater if his competitors were resting, nor did the Russians let their top pair rest even though their main OGM rivals, the German pair were resting.

    In the end, I am inclined to think it was mostly just a case of USFS not wanting to force skaters somewhere they didn't want to be.
    According to the ISU announcement, the Top-Ranked team from a country that is also in Worlds Top 10 must skate, or there can be sanctions. There seems to be an unofficial policy for Pairs and Dance teams that the ISU won't go after sanctions if another team in the Top 10 at Worlds and is sent in their place, like C/B for D/W, W/P for V/M, and B/L for V/T last year. I'd say second-ranked and Top 10 at Worlds, except that that would be the Shibutanis, and they didn't go, either; even if C/B placed one spot above them at Worlds, the Shibs were still Top 10.

    I doubt if it was USFS's strategy to rest their Top team: it seems very much Zoueva's strategy, since V/M, D/W, and S/S stayed home. If they had a strategy to rest their top skaters, they wouldn't have sent Aaron, either, since while he was Top 10 at Worlds, he's the 5th-ranked US senior Men's skater in WS, or Gracie Gold, who is the 3rd-ranked Ladies skater, and Ashley Wagner would have stayed home just like D/W, who were equally obligated to be there.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 04-15-2013 at 08:30 AM.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  17. #137
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    To me, all of the skaters looked completely exhausted. I suppose there were a few who were looking to redeem themselves and end the season on a high note (Akiko) but then again, Tatiana and Max were fantastic. I can still see where Patrick was not wanting to compete this event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    Exactly.

    And I have been watching baseball since birth basically and have NEVER seen cameras in the losing team's locker room at the World Series. But making stuff up always makes for a good argument.

    All sports are grueling and being at the top requires year round training. I don't know why it is necessary to prove that skating is somehow harder than other sports.
    Pros trained through injury and pains to compete in competitions that for a lack of a better word, count. WTT to me is like the All Star weekend, so I would assume if a player is injured/tired they would've opt out and rest up especially if the All Star weekend takes place after the Championship Finals and your team just played through a grueling Playoffs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    Pros trained through injury and pains to compete in competitions that for a lack of a better word, count. WTT to me is like the All Star weekend, so I would assume if a player is injured/tired they would've opt out and rest up especially if the All Star weekend takes place after the Championship Finals and your team just played through a grueling Playoffs.
    I doubt if the skaters taking home that substantial prize money this weekend view it quite that way. And regardless of how you view WTT, there is no need to prove that skaters are somehow more strained by competition, length of season, or the need to train year round than any other elite athletes. They aren't. Every sport has its own unique and grueling demands and every sport is difficult to stay at the top of at the highest levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arakwafan2006 View Post
    To me, all of the skaters looked completely exhausted. I suppose there were a few who were looking to redeem themselves and end the season on a high note (Akiko) but then again, Tatiana and Max were fantastic. I can still see where Patrick was not wanting to compete this event.
    Ashley Wagner, Gracie Gold, Max Aaron and Chock/Bates all rose to the occasion. That's why the US won the event.

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