View Poll Results: Which events would Sasha have won skating cleanly with others skating exactly as did

Voters
142. You may not vote on this poll
  • 2003 U.S Nationals

    74 52.11%
  • 2003 Worlds

    70 49.30%
  • 2004 GPF

    66 46.48%
  • 2004 U.S Nationals

    78 54.93%
  • 2004 Worlds

    84 59.15%
  • 2005 U.S Nationals

    92 64.79%
  • 2005 Worlds

    10 7.04%
  • 2006 Olympics

    107 75.35%
  • 2006 Worlds

    119 83.80%
  • 2010 U.S Nationals

    36 25.35%
  • none of the above

    5 3.52%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 43
  1. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    IIRC, Irina Slutskaya got huge PCS in 2005-2006, she was virtually unbeatable that season, not Sasha.
    That doesnt matter though as Irina skated poorly at the Games, and finished behind Sasha even with a fall and semi fall. The question is about beating Shizuka. Yes a clean 7 triple Sasha would beat a 5 triple Shizuka probably, but I am totally sure Shizuka would have done something more if she skated after Sasha skating better, and won anyway.

  2. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,333
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    That doesnt matter though as Irina skated poorly at the Games, and finished behind Sasha even with a fall and semi fall. The question is about beating Shizuka. Yes a clean 7 triple Sasha would beat a 5 triple Shizuka probably, but I am totally sure Shizuka would have done something more if she skated after Sasha skating better, and won anyway.
    I agree with you, and I would have loved to watch Shizuka going to higher difficulties.
    But she looked so cautious, I'm not sure she could have done any better than she did.

  3. #23
    Banned Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    51
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Wow. Interesting Thread.

    Actually, it would have been hard for Sasha to win a lot of events.

    2004 Nationals Michelle Skated out of her mind

    2004 Worlds Shizuka did the same

    2005 Worlds- Same

    2010 Nationals. Hmm. Interesting. I don't think she had a chance. Flatt was the heir apparent.

    In 2008, Flatt went clean and finished second to someone who fell.

    In 2009, Flatt went clean and finished second to someone who fell.

    So, in 2010, when Flatt went clean, there was not way on God's green earth that the judges weren't going to let her win.

  4. #24
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    36
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by zaphyre14 View Post
    Sasha who?
    Surely not obscure? And would probably have beaten Kwan...

  5. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    1,430
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Some have said every event from 2003-2006 was Sasha's to win or lose.
    I don't think so. In 2002 & 2003 she was still perceived as having less than championship caliber edging and stroking. She was slower than ISU judges like in their champions and skated on flats a lot. She worked on those weaknesses and from 2004 -2006 got stronger and faster. The edges on her spirals and stroking were noticeably better. So I think pretty much anything from 2004 or maybe 2005 on was "hers to lose" except US Nationals which would have gone to Kwan as long as she competed regardless what anyone else did.

  6. #26
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I don't think so. In 2002 & 2003 she was still perceived as having less than championship caliber edging and stroking. She was slower than ISU judges like in their champions and skated on flats a lot. She worked on those weaknesses and from 2004 -2006 got stronger and faster. The edges on her spirals and stroking were noticeably better. So I think pretty much anything from 2004 or maybe 2005 on was "hers to lose" except US Nationals which would have gone to Kwan as long as she competed regardless what anyone else did.
    I agree with you on 2002 and 2003, but Cohens chances of beating Kwan at the 2004 and especialy 2005 Nationals, or beating Shizuka at the 2004 Worlds, are about 20 times higher than her chances of beating Slutskaya at the 2005 Worlds were. Still the only obvious events are the 2006 ones.

  7. #27
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    1,520
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Here is a really, REALLY, non-technical overview of my speculations.

    2003 U.S Nationals -- Kwan was simply too good. Sasha could not have won even had she been amazing instead of falling and stumbling about in her blue and pee yellow dress.

    2003 Worlds -- Again, Kwan, reaching a new level of sophistication and technical confidence (certainly an unexpected improvement from her 2002 efforts), was just out of her league.

    2004 GPF -- Sasha would have won. The original Swan Lake was so good.

    2004 U.S Nationals -- She would deserve to win clean, but the fraudulent judging at US Nationals would go for Kwan anyway.

    2004 Worlds -- Since Kwan was not a factor at worlds in Dortmund, a clean Cohen would have been unstoppable--even with the scars that Wagner made on Tarasova's Swan Lake.

    2005 U.S Nationals -- If she did the Zueva beautiful Nutcracker Suite program without any falls, she might still have lost. The USFSA had a lot of interest in helping Kwan get a record breaking win.

    2005 Worlds -- Slutskaya received such incredible point totals and components scores for ragged programs that I don't know if regaining the points lost from Sasha's mistakes would be enough. Does anyone have a more technical analysis to add?

    2006 Olympics -- The judging looked in her favor after the SP scores. Her Romeo and Juliet was a classic, and had it been clean Arakawa would be the Olympic silver medalist. I feel bad thinking about this, because Arakawa owes a lot to other ladies' mistakes. I have such respect for her that I wish she could have won at a medal or two at a worlds-- or won a GPF or something--where her rivals did not kind of mess up.

    2006 Worlds -- This is a no brainer. Kimmie was not up to the job against a clean or cleaner Cohen

    2010 U.S Nationals -- If she skated less like someone who hadn't eaten in a long time, she could have placed first. Mirai and Rachael were more rushed/sloppy.
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 04-15-2013 at 03:28 AM.

  8. #28

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Age
    33
    Posts
    23,082
    vCash
    80943
    Rep Power
    91368
    For "fun", the marks of the top two skaters in the ladies' event at 2004 US Nats:

    Cohen (first skater of the final group)

    Technical merit: (1) 5.7 (2) 5.7 (3) 5.8 (4) 5.7 (5) 5.6 (6) 5.6 (7) 5.8 (8) 5.7 (9) 5.7

    Presentation: (1) 6.0 (2) 5.8 (3) 5.8 (4) 5.8 (5) 5.9 (6) 5.8 (7) 5.8 (8) 5.8 (9) 5.8

    Kwan (fourth skater of the final group)

    Technical merit: (1) 5.9 (2) 5.9 (3) 5.9 (4) 5.9 (5) 5.8 (6) 5.8 (7) 5.8 (8) 5.9 (9) 5.8

    Presentation: (1) 6.0 (2) 6.0 (3) 6.0 (4) 6.0 (5) 6.0 (6) 5.9 (7) 6.0 (8) 5.9 (9) 6.0

    Judge #7 had Kwan and Cohen tied on the technical merit mark.
    Judge #1 had Kwan and Cohen tied for presentation.
    All of the judges had Kwan in first place in the free skate and overall.
    All of the judges had Cohen in second place in the free skate and overall.

  9. #29
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,184
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    2004 U.S Nationals -- She would deserve to win clean, but the fraudulent judging at US Nationals would go for Kwan anyway.

    2004 Worlds -- Since Kwan was not a factor at worlds in Dortmund, a clean Cohen would have been unstoppable--even with the scars that Wagner made on Tarasova's Swan Lake.
    Was the Nationals version of Swan Lake already Wagner-fied? If no, perhaps a case could be made because she would have landed 7 triples to Kwan's 6 and had a great program to go against Kwan's decent program with wonderfule execution. Still, Kwan had such fire that night and was the latter skater to skate so I doubt the judges would have gone for Cohen even if the judging was clean.

    As to 2004 Worlds, I doubt a clean landing at the final 3sal would have made the difference. She didn't even beat Kwan in the free. I think Arakawa would have been the clear winner of the night even if Cohen was clean. And given how Kwan skated AFTER being disturbed by some streaker, and it was the last Worlds with 6.0s, the judges was always going to shower her with 6.0s regardless of what Cohen did. Wagner Lake was not 6.0 worthy at all. (Neither was Tosca but Kwan's interpretation and presence very much made up for it)

  10. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Helping Mirai choose between Italian dressing and vinaigrette.
    Age
    30
    Posts
    1,652
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    After 2004 Sasha could have won everything until she retired; however she was NEVER clean so it is moot point. Really a waste of what could have been a standout career except 2010 Nationals. It was already over at that point.

  11. #31

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    NY/NJ
    Posts
    4,924
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    34697
    Quote Originally Posted by angelflies View Post
    -How can many more people think Sasha would have beaten Kwan in the U.S at the 2003 Nationals and Worlds, where she is beloved and showered with astronomical stores, at the 2003 Nationals and 2003 Worlds, than beat Rachel Flatt of all people at the 2010 Nationals. NBC basically bullied the USFSA to make sure Sasha made the team, and yet so few think a clean Sasha would win Nationals even with Nagasu and Czisny both blowing it.
    Well, I didn't vote for Sasha to have won any of those events. In 2003, I don't think Sasha's basic skating was going to hold off Kwan. In 2004, was Sasha still going for the triple lutz-triple toe? If so, then maybe she would have passed Kwan, otherwise I think not. As for 2010, Sasha's program didn't look very COP-ready (didn't she have some level ones in the freeskate?), so I didn't think she would have collected enough points to pass Rachael. I do see a clean Sasha getting ahead of Mirai, though, because of the factors you mentioned above.
    "Marge, if you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" - Homer Simpson in the Mr. Plow episode

  12. #32
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,333
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    2004 U.S Nationals -- She would deserve to win clean, but the fraudulent judging at US Nationals would go for Kwan anyway.
    LOL
    Did you watch Kwan's LP at 2004 US Nationals ?

  13. #33
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    “It is far more important to have a good judge than a possible conflict of interest." - Ottavio Cinquanta
    Posts
    1,635
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Sasha's "basic edges and stroking" would not have held her back from anything if she would have just stopped falling.

  14. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    LOL
    Did you watch Kwan's LP at 2004 US Nationals ?
    I think it is more she has great confidence in the level of skating Sasha was capable of post 2003, than dissing Kwan in anyway. Personally Sasha was never my cup of tea and I never got the hype about her to begin with.

  15. #35
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,333
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I agree that judges seemed to want to give titles to Sasha, only from 2003-2004 season. But she never did enough to receive the high marks judges wanted to give her, lol.

  16. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I think they wanted to give her all the titles (Nationals, Worlds, GPF, Olympics) in the 03-04 season and 05-06 seasons both. Not so sure about the 2002-2003 season, and not really the 2004-2005 season either (although if she skated well she would have had to win Nationals this year as Kwan's LP was nothing great). As you said she could never justify it though with her performances. I find this poll offensive in many ways as it almost implies the winners of various events should feel lucky that Sasha "never skates clean" didnt skate clean.

  17. #37
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    745
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    2006 Olympics -- The judging looked in her favor after the SP scores. Her Romeo and Juliet was a classic, and had it been clean Arakawa would be the Olympic silver medalist. I feel bad thinking about this, because Arakawa owes a lot to other ladies' mistakes. I have such respect for her that I wish she could have won at a medal or two at a worlds-- or won a GPF or something--where her rivals did not kind of mess up.
    I once read some youtube quotes that even if Cohen hadn't made those errors, her points would still fall short of Arakawa's because Arakawa's choreography and execution put her ahead anyways. I wonder if that's true. I would personally think so as I think Arakawa's edging is stunning (she gets so deep in the knees). I find Sasha's edges very shallow.

  18. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    “It is far more important to have a good judge than a possible conflict of interest." - Ottavio Cinquanta
    Posts
    1,635
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    I once read some youtube quotes that even if Cohen hadn't made those errors, her points would still fall short of Arakawa's because Arakawa's choreography and execution put her ahead anyways. I wonder if that's true. I would personally think so as I think Arakawa's edging is stunning (she gets so deep in the knees). I find Sasha's edges very shallow.
    Quick, someone do study of the scores...

  19. #39
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Sasha definitely would have won the 2006 Olympic Gold had she landed those 2 jumps and done as planned. Her first jump was supposed to be a triple lutz-double toe-double loop combo so 4 points (3 for the -GOE for a fall and 1 additional for falling) + 2.8 points (the value of the double toe-double loop). Her 2nd jump miss was 2.86. So now 9.66 total. Add as much as up to 4 points (an average of .5 more on all PCS categories as a generous guess) and maybe of jump GOE (she usually gets almost none and her flutz is negative usually) and she might gain up to 14 points, while she lost by only 8. However that is Sasha doing 7 triples and Shizuka doing only 5, when Shizuka is capable of not only 7 herself but with triple-triples to boot. Why assume Sasha who never does clean LPs going clean and not make the same consideration for other skaters who actually have and can.

  20. #40
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    745
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Why assume Sasha who never does clean LPs going clean and not make the same consideration for other skaters who actually have and can.
    Exactly. If Sasha had skated clean, perhaps Shizuka would've pulled out the big guns and went for 2 triple triple combinations. I remember watching her do amazing triple-triple-triple combinations in practice. I was most impressed with Shizuka's spiral at those Olympics. Not only did she hold the position for a really long time but the edge control was amazing (much more so than Cohen's) and the pattern she made was absolutely gigantic. That to me is more important to a good spiral than how high you can lift up your free leg. Sasha's positions were gorgeous but I found her edges wimpy and the pattern she made wasn't nearly as impressive. I also thought Shizuka had higher and more powerful jumps. Did she have any issues with flutzing like Sasha did?

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •