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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I looked at them, too--rather closely. And what I said stands--the only 'controversy" is in quotes from Evgeni, his coach and a handful of other people.

    That does not a big controversy make.
    Like a two time winner of a silver medal in mens skating who proclaimed the sport dead. "Handful of other people"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    I was talking about the winner in regards of the quads, never said anything about the percentage of quad attempt. When did I say that the championships don't matter to me? Here is the list:

    2008 world champion Buttle - quadless;
    2009 world champion Lysacek - quadless;
    2010 Olympic champion Lysacek - quadless;
    2010 world champion Takahashi - one URed quad;

    2011 world champion Chan - total three quads, two quads in combo;
    2012 world champion Chan - total three quads, one quad in combo;
    2013 world champion Chan - total three quads, two quads in combo;

    That was a huge impact on the outcome from the contraversy of the 2010 Olympics. I don't need to insist on calling Lysacek a quadless champion. He IS a quadless champion. Don't like this name for him? Then come back and show it on ice. I wouldn't hesitate in praising him if he shows his guts next season.
    The trend was obvious. With the new rules on UR in place at 2007 worlds every medalist did quads. In 2008 silver and bronze tried quads. In 2009 it was only the bronze medal winner. Then in 2010 Olympics Again only one person on the podium actually did a quad. One was tried but failed. The trend was obvious towards no quads in mens skating medal performances anymore. THen in 2011 you see what happened!! And that is just the winners! Now every medalists is doing multiple quads. In 2009 worlds there was one medalists who even tried? The above stats are obvious.
    Last edited by caseyedwards; 04-09-2013 at 10:49 PM.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    Like a two time winner of a silver medal in mens skating who proclaimed the sport dead. "Handful of other people"
    I forgot that the definition of "two-time silver medalist" included "multitudes of voices encompassed by one."

    And look at how accurate that proclamation was, too.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I forgot that the definition of "two-time silver medalist" included "multitudes of voices encompassed by one."
    I inferred, from your statement that the controversy was only discussed by Plush, his coach, and "a handful of other people" that you were dismissing the notion that there was a controversy as simply sour grapes from Plushy's team... and I'm a native English speaker. I can understand how lala, who isn't a native English speaker, thought the same thing. You put the word "controversy" in quotes more than once, so I do understand why lala thought you were trying to say there was no controversy at all, not that there was a controversy but it wasn't as "big" as lala said. And so, lala posted names of several respected sources who thought there was a controversy, including from different continents and different generations, some who have no connection to Plush. It is not necessarily just the number of people saying something that makes something a bona fide controversy (however that is defined), but also the credibility of those people, and I thought she did a good job putting together a list of respected skaters who supported her argument.

    And look at how accurate that proclamation [from Elvis, that figure skating was dead] was, too.
    Stojko said: How can you be Olympic champion when you don’t even try the quad? Considering that the quad is now worth more, and the last three World title winning skates have included multiple quads (even if there is no causal relationship between those two facts, as some have posited), it's hard to evaluate the accuracy of Stojko's comments. There are more quads done now, and people generally believe it will be impossible to win in Sochi without one. Perhaps Stojko was right that figure skating would have died off if the quad continued to be omitted from the winning men's programs. It's not really possible to say either way, because the sport changed.

  4. #84

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    Evans won the OGM in 2010. No one can change that fact but we can argue till kingdom come on whether we like or agree to that outcome. Different time, different competitors, different outcomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelflies View Post
    the reigning Olympic Champion serving hot dogs at the Olympics. Sounds good.
    I don't like hot dogs. But if Evans is serving, I wouldn't mind buying. He's one tall good looking dude besides being an OGM.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  5. #85

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    Plushenko is over Vancouver. Can everyone - both his fans and his haters - please follow his example?

    My two cents is simply that if Plushenko skated his LP the way he did at Euros he would have won. He had a lot more speed, attack, conviction at Euros, though he doubled the Lutz. By Vancouver he simply looked tired, and by the time he reached the straight-line steps (which were the climax of the program), he was out on his feet. That sequence needed a lot of fire and conviction to work, and by that point in Vancouver, he just didn't have the energy.

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Plushenko is over Vancouver. Can everyone - both his fans and his haters - please follow his example?

    My two cents is simply that if Plushenko skated his LP the way he did at Euros he would have won. He had a lot more speed, attack, conviction at Euros, though he doubled the Lutz. By Vancouver he simply looked tired, and by the time he reached the straight-line steps (which were the climax of the program), he was out on his feet. That sequence needed a lot of fire and conviction to work, and by that point in Vancouver, he just didn't have the energy.
    I don't get what this means.

    The author of the article brought up why plushenko lost in Vancouver. His reasoning was dumb and absurd. Lysacek LYSACEK unnerved plushenko and got into his head! That's so laughable as to rank among among the all time dumb explanations for any loss in sports ever! Did even yagudin ever get into his head? Few skaters are known for being more prepared mentally at a competition better than plushenko. He lost not because he all of a sudden became a headcase but because of other reasons one of which was entirely system oriented and it was changed.

    I would agree that plushenko was more energetic at euros but the lutz doubling compared to no doubling of Anything at the Olympics showed that on jumps he was more mentally there at the Olympics then anywhere else that season and also physically was there too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    The author of the article brought up why plushenko lost in Vancouver. His reasoning was dumb and absurd. Lysacek LYSACEK unnerved plushenko and got into his head! That's so laughable as to rank among among the all time dumb explanations for any loss in sports ever! Did even yagudin ever get into his head? Few skaters are known for being more prepared mentally at a competition better than plushenko. He lost not because he all of a sudden became a headcase but because of other reasons one of which was entirely system oriented and it was changed.
    Seriously. The guy competed against Kulik, Yagudin, Stojko, Lambiel, Takahashi... I really doubt that Lysacek's 8 triple performance so unnerved him that he lost the gold. The article says "there are some who believe..." that, but I don't remember that particular argument at all. I remember lots of arguments why Plushenko sucked or why Lysacek played the system better, but never that Plushenko was unnerved.

    I always thought the opposite, actually. Plushenko was talking about possibly doing two quads. He skated last. IMO, when he saw that Lysacek, sans quad, was in the lead, he decided to go for only one, thinking surely it would be enough. If anything, he was overconfident, not unnerved.

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    If evan is in good health, he will do very well and can, perhaps, even win again without a quad, if we have a situation like the one that occurred at this year's Worlds.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    I don't get what this means.

    The author of the article brought up why plushenko lost in Vancouver. His reasoning was dumb and absurd. Lysacek LYSACEK unnerved plushenko and got into his head! That's so laughable as to rank among among the all time dumb explanations for any loss in sports ever!
    In Torino, Plushenko was 10.66 ahead of a quadless Weir, and 11.66 over Lambiel (4T/3T) and 12.80 over Joubert (4T/2T) after the SP. Whether or not Plushenko expected to be just .55 ahead of Lysacek and .60 ahead of Takahashi after the SP, when he landed 4T/3T, 3A, and 3Lz, had very high levels on his spins, a 3.7-4.1 advantage over Takahashi and Lysacek in technical base, although Lysacek got slightly more +GOE on his elements, if he didn't think about what this might mean for the podium, that was none too bright.

    Does a champion downgrade his technical content at the biggest event of his sport? Brian Orser did in Calgary, and if Plushenko did in Vancouver, it got him the same place as it got Orser: not being Olympic champion, at least in 2010.
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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post

    Does a champion downgrade his technical content at the biggest event of his sport? Brian Orser did in Calgary, and if Plushenko did in Vancouver, it got him the same place as it got Orser: not being Olympic champion, at least in 2010.
    Lysacek downgraded from what he attempted at Nationals. But yes, I agree, Plush should have done a second quad or a triple flip just to be sure. Or a freaking three jump combination with a double loop in it! That was his fatal flaw, not the lack of transitions, which the judges somehow didn't notice until Inman so helpfully pointed it out, and which the judges forgot about completely by 2012 Euros.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Plushenko is over Vancouver. Can everyone - both his fans and his haters - please follow his example?
    All because Lysacek keeps talking about his comeback but the last competition he has had was 2010 Olympics. What do you want people to talk about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    If evan is in good health, he will do very well and can, perhaps, even win again without a quad, if we have a situation like the one that occurred at this year's Worlds.
    God! I hope it won't happen again!

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    It doesn't bother me that he was a quadless Olympic champion
    It bothers me. Of course, men's skating is not all about quad jumps but quad has become the backbone of men's skating since Yagudin/Plushenko era, and it should be. It's great that quad has come back into the winner's repertoire. Without even trying it, it seems missing something spiritual. That was the reason that Takahashi was praised by many for his gutsy 4T attempt in his LP at 2010 Olympics.
    Last edited by Eyre; 04-10-2013 at 01:03 PM.

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    In Torino, Plushenko was 10.66 ahead of a quadless Weir, and 11.66 over Lambiel (4T/3T) and 12.80 over Joubert (4T/2T) after the SP. Whether or not Plushenko expected to be just .55 ahead of Lysacek and .60 ahead of Takahashi after the SP, when he landed 4T/3T, 3A, and 3Lz, had very high levels on his spins, a 3.7-4.1 advantage over Takahashi and Lysacek in technical base, although Lysacek got slightly more +GOE on his elements, if he didn't think about what this might mean for the podium, that was none too bright.

    Does a champion downgrade his technical content at the biggest event of his sport? Brian Orser did in Calgary, and if Plushenko did in Vancouver, it got him the same place as it got Orser: not being Olympic champion, at least in 2010.
    All season long they were wagering that him being the only one with really consistent quads and 3a would be enough. Sure his program plan indicated 4/3/2loop but he never did that. Never did a 3/2/2 with axel or lutz. They made their wager. They also tried flip once the whole season at COr I think. They wanted to eliminate the possible e on flip or double flip or < on loop or step out. So they eliminated things he made mistakes on in Torino. Do a 2a, put on more jump after the halfway point. That was their view of enough. All because he was the only one doing 4/3 and 2 3a. I guess he did downgrade but was still doing the hardest jumps. It was a mistake that only bit them at the Olympics. Worked at COr and euros.

    And the takahashi flip was at worlds but toe was at the Olympics. Near Zero Points on both For takahashi. Glad that's over!

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post

    And the takahashi flip was at worlds but toe was at the Olympics. Near Zero Points on both For takahashi. Glad that's over!
    I, too, am glad that the underrotation downgrade penalty was changed.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    If evan is in good health, he will do very well and can, perhaps, even win again without a quad, if we have a situation like the one that occurred at this year's Worlds.
    I disagree. I think this time around, Evan will need a quad, and he knows it. I don't think he would be put on the Olympic team if he doesn't do a quad at nationals. Max Aaron as champion this year showed that USFS judges think a quad is a requirement to compete on the world seen.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by DimaToe View Post
    Let me guess, he plans to be in Sochi, then next month he will announce that he will compete in Skate America, then withdraw last minute, then he will "compete" at nationals...Etc.

    It just seems that it's been the same story for a couple years now, I have nothing against Evan's skating, I'm also aware he had an injury or two, but if he was serious about returning, he would have been on competitive ice already.
    Sasha 2.0. If Evan was really serious he would have come back this year and done Yuna 2.0.

  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post

    Sasha 2.0. If Evan was really serious he would have come back this year and done Yuna 2.0.
    Evan did not compete this year because he was injured and had surgery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFan66 View Post
    Evan did not compete this year because he was injured and had surgery.
    Sasha was injured too. No one is saying he did not plan to come back this season, the fact of the matter is for one reason or another he didn't, and considering the reason is due to injury, that makes it even more difficult for him this season.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Sasha was injured too. No one is saying he did not plan to come back this season, the fact of the matter is for one reason or another he didn't, and considering the reason is due to injury, that makes it even more difficult for him this season.
    Exactly, It appears as these "comeback injuries" happen when athletes try to cram too much training in at the last minute. I'm stunned at what Yuna has done.

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    Evan's OGM-winning FS from 4 years ago has content that would make it hard for him to scrape into the top 10 at Worlds,
    Actually, if you look at the protocols from Calgary and adjust the point values to the current table (also switching the final fw seq to a Choreo seq), Lysacek's element score would be somewhere in the low-mid 80s, which is well up in the top 10 from 2013 Worlds. (I don't entirely understand the math involved in the factoring of combinations and the 1.1 jump distribution bonus, but I calculate about 82 points.)

    IMO the real question is not so much about what jumps he can add but whether the can even still skate his 2010 jump schedule.

    I was thinking it would have made sense for the USFS to sent him to the team event so he can test himself in competition before next season.
    Last edited by Susan M; 04-10-2013 at 10:04 PM.

  20. #100

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    As a fan of Evan who follows the news on him, the biggest surprise for me from this thread is that there is not a comment in the WP article about the "horror" of Evan being a "quadless" Olympic champion by caseyedwards, considering casey usually obsessively follows every article on Evan with the usual tired whine about his victory. You are SLIPPING, casey, get back in harness and get your righteous umbrage out there, dammit!!!!

    And personally, I find it amusing to imagine how much valuable time casey and others (lala, ad nauseum) have wasted venting their spleen over Evan Lysacek, Olympic Champion (oooooh, I can imagine the stomach upset, teeth gnashing and rending of garments those 4 little words set off...Evan Lysacek, Olympic Champion...Evan Lysacek, Olympic Champion...)
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

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