View Poll Results: What would the podium at 2000 Worlds have been had Irina and Maria done clean longs

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  • Kwan gold, Slutskaya silver, Butyrskaya bronze

    21 13.46%
  • Kwan gold, Butyrskaya silver, Slutskaya bronze

    5 3.21%
  • Butyrskaya gold, Slutskaya silver, Kwan bronze

    70 44.87%
  • Butyrskaya gold, Kwan silver, Slutskaya bronze

    10 6.41%
  • Slutskaya gold, Butyrskaya silver, Kwan bronze

    50 32.05%
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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Bute had planned 7 triples including a simpler 3/3, Slute had planned 7 triples (2 lutzes) including a more difficult 3/3.

    There is a gap but it's not that big I would think. She had an easier combo and solo jump in the short but still won handily on the second mark, and even on the first mark for many judges.

    "Clean" is a tricky word for Bute and Slute. Bute could be totally charming and smooth like in 1999 and 2000, or could be awkward like 1998 or 2002. Slute could land strong jumps or could land them way out of position and control. Who knows which one would have shown?
    Maria only attempted 6 triples in both her qualifying round and long program. She attempted a triple lutz, triple flip, triple salchow-half loop-double toe, triple salchow, triple loop, and triple toe in qualifying. A triple lutz, triple flip, triple salchow-half loop-triple toe, triple loop, double salchow, and triple toe in the final long. So it looks like either way she only planned 6 triples, and the triple toe or triple salchow as her only repeat triple, without any true jump combination at all, not even a triple-double. That is way behind all of Kwan, Slutskaya, Hughes, maybe even Gusmeroli in technical difficulty. She still could have won but it would have had nothing to do with her technical difficulty which was unimpressive. To beat a stronger Slutskaya or Kwan's skate she would have had to be outstanding in her technical delivery of her easy technical program, and try for straight 5.9s and maybe some 6.0s artistry though. Then to even do what was needed to win overall with Irina's bad skate, atleast finish above Irina's 6 triple long, would have still required a pretty good and almost clean performance of her easy technical program. Her qualifying round wasn't perfect but might have done it.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by hertmirsh View Post
    Maria only attempted 6 triples in both her qualifying round and long program. She attempted a triple lutz, triple flip, triple salchow-half loop-double toe, triple salchow, triple loop, and triple toe in qualifying. A triple lutz, triple flip, triple salchow-half loop-triple toe, triple loop, double salchow, and triple toe in the final long. So it looks like either way she only planned 6 triples, and the triple toe or triple salchow as her only repeat triple, without any true jump combination at all, not even a triple-double. That is way behind all of Kwan, Slutskaya, Hughes, maybe even Gusmeroli in technical difficulty. She still could have won but it would have had nothing to do with her technical difficulty which was unimpressive. To beat a stronger Slutskaya or Kwan's skate she would have had to be outstanding in her technical delivery of her easy technical program, and try for straight 5.9s and maybe some 6.0s artistry though. Then to even do what was needed to win overall with Irina's bad skate, atleast finish above Irina's 6 triple long, would have still required a pretty good and almost clean performance of her easy technical program. Her qualifying round wasn't perfect but might have done it.
    In the Qualifying, Maria landed 3z, 3f, 3t-.5lo-2s, 3lo, 3s*, 2a(hand down), 3t. In the LP, she landed 3z, 3f, 3t-.5lo-3s(incomplete rotation), 3lo, 2s*, 2a, 3t.

    *Maria only attempted a second 3s if she missed it in the 3t-.5l-3s attempt. I wrote earlier in the thread that Butyrskaya's second 3s was most likely planned to be a 3lp-2t - provided she landed the 3-3 sequence - that's what she did earlier on the GP circuit. At Europeans, the second 3s was a 3z combo attempt.

    I still tihnk that if she landed everything: 3z, 3f, 3t-.5lp-3s, 3lp, 3lp-2t (or 3z-2t), 2a, 3t - and with her momentum in the SP (where she was so clearly above the rest of the field, who also skated clean albeit with slightly stiff/shaky performances), I think Maria would have won the LP and won her second world title. This inspite of the fact that I thought Maria's Swan Lake program was subpar compared to her Otonal and 17 Moments in Spring programs.

  3. #83

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    Thanks goodness the results ended up the way that they did then.
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Thanks goodness the results ended up the way that they did then.
    Maria as a 2 time world champion isn't that scary. Is it really any worse than Miki Ando (ugh) as a 2 time world champion, or even worse Anette Poetzsh as a 2 time world and Olympic Champion.

  5. #85

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    I'm biased when it comes to competitions with an in-her-prime Kwan.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I'm biased when it comes to competitions with an in-her-prime Kwan.
    So it is more about Kwan than Maria in this case. OK I got ya. I feel the same way about competitions with an in-his-prime Chan. I get so mad when people say he didn't deserve some of his titles. I admit I am super biased though since he is my favorite.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by artsciboy View Post
    In the Qualifying, Maria landed 3z, 3f, 3t-.5lo-2s, 3lo, 3s*, 2a(hand down), 3t. In the LP, she landed 3z, 3f, 3t-.5lo-3s(incomplete rotation), 3lo, 2s*, 2a, 3t.

    *Maria only attempted a second 3s if she missed it in the 3t-.5l-3s attempt. I wrote earlier in the thread that Butyrskaya's second 3s was most likely planned to be a 3lp-2t - provided she landed the 3-3 sequence - that's what she did earlier on the GP circuit. At Europeans, the second 3s was a 3z combo attempt.

    I still tihnk that if she landed everything: 3z, 3f, 3t-.5lp-3s, 3lp, 3lp-2t (or 3z-2t), 2a, 3t - and with her momentum in the SP (where she was so clearly above the rest of the field, who also skated clean albeit with slightly stiff/shaky performances), I think Maria would have won the LP and won her second world title. This inspite of the fact that I thought Maria's Swan Lake program was subpar compared to her Otonal and 17 Moments in Spring programs.
    I agree with all you said, except that your post doesn't take into account what if Irina had skated the way she had previously that season. After all the thread is not just what if Maria skated better, but what if Maria AND Irina skated better. Even those who unlike you don't think Maria could have beaten Michelle's LP, and/or would have placed only 3rd in the LP behind both Michelle and Irina had all 3 gone clean would concede Maria winning had she gone clean. Since a perfect Maria would almost have to atleast be placed over a flawed Irina, and she didn't even need to beat Michelle in the LP to win. So asking that question would be pointless, and hence nobody would make that as a thread.

    However beating a perfect Irina who potentially had a triple lutz-triple loop and triple salchow-triple loop planned is another matter entirely; especialy with that drab old Swan Lake number which even skated perfectly could probably not scratch the surface of her excellent short program or excellent winning long program the year earlier, and looks borderline embarrassing put up against the stunning Swan Lake of Baiul in Lillehammer. Remember Irina skated right after Maria too, so if Maria knocked it out of the park and got even higher marks than Michelle's LP to be 1st in the LP itself, Irina skating right after would pull out her full arsenal to ensure victory with a clean skate. Irina skated way after Michelle so might have had no idea how great Michelle skated, and even if she had knew Michelle's marks were lower than merited for her excellent skate due to skating 1st in the final flight before short program leads Maria and Irina anyway. If Maria put up a bunch of 5.9s you had better believe Irina was bringing out everything, and if she did it would be almost impossible for a judge to deny her 1st place based on the technical insanity alone if she delivered it all. That plus the judges gave her some super generous marks for the performance she gave, almost winning the LP over Michelle with that skate was crazy. In contrast to Maria who was given very stingy marks even for her not so good skate. There are even some who think Maria should have beaten Irina in the LP and defended her title as it was, and yet her marks were light years behind, which shows which skater had the judges favor despite Maria's convincing short program win (which was impossible to deny her as her short program was so stunning, not a reflection the judges liked her per say).
    Last edited by rollingrace; 07-11-2014 at 04:50 PM.

  8. #88
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    Was Maria's Swan Lake strong enough to get a row of 6.0s artistically? (for the record I don't think so) Since that is what she would have needed to compensate for the row of 6.0s Irina would have gotten technically had she duplicated her grand prix final performance but with smoother landings on the two difficult combos at worlds.

  9. #89
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    Maria as a 2 time world champ would have been the death of the sport. 2000 worlds would have been the final worlds ever held in figure skating if that ever happened.

  10. #90
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    Based on the short program scores Maria would win no problem. She got 10 5.9s for her short program, and skaters who skate a clean long after a clean short ALWAYS get higher marks for their long program than their short program, so obviously a clean long would net more than 10. Kwan got only 4 for her outstanding long program. I don't know what Irina could get, but since no judge would ever give her a 5.9 for presentation, that means she couldn't possibly match 10, let alone the greater than 10 Maria was certain to get for a clean long based on the foolproof short program/long program rule.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    Here's a suggestion for another thread topic, along the same lines: What would the podium at Sochi have been had Yulia and Adelina both done clean long and short programs?
    I presume you have never seen Julia skate. Julia has tiny, ugly jumps, no footwork, weak artistry, no speed, and skates like a little girl. Her only assets are great consistency, high difficulty, and great spins. Julia could never hope to beat a clean Sotnikova, clean Kim, or clean Kostner, thus with the others skating so well, the medals would remain unchanged. Julia often does well since her consistency is super, and it is hard to skate clean programs all the time like she does, so she usually beats her rivals with clean skates, but in Sochi everyone who mattered was clean so her chances are sunk.

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladygagafan View Post
    Maria as a 2 time world champ would have been the death of the sport. 2000 worlds would have been the final worlds ever held in figure skating if that ever happened.
    That's almost as ridiculous as saying Artpop is a listenable record.

  13. #93
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    Maria is just not a world champion caliber skater. So a 2 time is unimaginable. I cant think of someone as weak or average as her winning 2 world titles. Miki Ando atleast had great jumps. There is nothing that impressive about her skating in general technically or artistically. She might do some really good performances once in awhile like her 2000 worlds short program or 1999 worlds free skate, but overall as a skater she just isn't what you look for in a world champion. She lucked out to win worlds once in an overall super weak field (everyone except Maria and Michelle was either retired, not on the scene yet, or slumping/injured/out of worlds, didnt someone named Bulia Polpotapova win the bronze that year and drop to 18th by 2001 when the field had built up again)and that should be good enough. I agree she would have won in 2000 had she gone clean, but the sport would have stopped existing then, so thankfully she didn't and we still have figure skating today and Maria didn't cause it to end.

    It also would have been unfair to Kwan to skate clean in all 3 programs and lose to Maria skating cleanly in only 1 of 3. I am assuming Maria doing a long program good enough to be 2nd over Irina's off skate to back door to win (or gifted 1st as a defending champ and short program leader token), since imagining a clean 7 triple long from her is impossible as she isn't capable of that, so the hypothetical for her is 6 with 1 miss, thus leaving the short as her only clean skate even then.
    Last edited by ladygagafan; 07-14-2014 at 04:14 AM.

  14. #94

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    The whole qualifying round counts thing was really stupid. It would have made a lot more sense had the QR included every entrant competing against one another in one single group rather than separated.
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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    The whole qualifying round counts thing was really stupid. It would have made a lot more sense had the QR included every entrant competing against one another in one single group rather than separated.
    I agree. Lets imagine Maria did the same LP she did (not a very good skate obviously) and Irina missed 1 more jump. Maria probably would have backdoored to the title with a mediocre LP, a mediocre qualifying skate, and only a great short program but nothing else. Michelle with a very good qualifying LP, an excellent SP and an excellent LP would have lost the title just due to the qualifying round counting.

    Michelle would have had a shot at the title going into the LP at the 2002 worlds without the qualifying round too. It was only because of it she didn't. This time atleast she made a big mistake in the SP and was only 3rd due to the weak field, so it wasn't as bad as the 2000 situation.

    It makes no sense to count the qualifying round. I don't know what they were thinking. Maybe they didn't want the skaters to just tank their skate, especialy the better ones who could still make it in easy. So they wanted to make it mean something. However it still feels stupid. It is counting like compulsory figures used to, but it has 1% the relevance to skating that compulsory figures had.

    Apparently the reason they split the groups is the same reason they have a qualifying round. It is too hard for the judges to keep track of 40+ skaters and judge them all against each other. So this is a way they never have to judge more than 25 against each other, and make it a bearable and doable job. Which I understand, but the groups are often unbalanced, which makes counting it all the more unfair.

  16. #96
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    Maria would never be allowed to win a big event over a clean Irina and clean Michelle. She skated cleanly at the 98 Olympics and was still placed behind a past her prime Chen who didn't skate cleanly. She skated cleanly at the 96 worlds and was behind a juvenile Slutskaya with a huge fall. She skated cleanly at the 97 worlds and was put behind then nobody Gusmeroli who had mistakes. She won 99 worlds only since nobody good was there besides Kwan who fell. Those of you who voted Maria are smoking some strong stuff. I like Maria but judges never liked her skating. Just more proof FSU polls are only popularity contests. I guess Maria has big fan base here as that is the only way she could ever win such an illogical poll for her to win.

    Had she skated cleanly, and Irina still not, she would have won but it would have been by default with Irina and Michelle's misses in the short and Irina's in the long. Thus allowing her with the 2nd place she would have gotten in long over unclean Irina, to back door her way to another lucky title.

  17. #97
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    Having the qualifying round count towards final results was stupid, esp when they had to split them into two groups. The combination of Kwan's QR and SP shouldn't have knocked her out of contention for gold against Bute's QR and SP.

    COP was a fairer system in that regard compared to factored placements. You never get knockd out of contention for a title or a medal, and if you do deliver in the long, you can jump right back up without the help of ordinal flip flops or someone to place between you and another skater. I mean, why should your placement in relation to one skater be determined by the placement or performance of another skater? Makes no sense.

  18. #98
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    Even though I voted in the scenario of Slutskaya gold, Butyrskaya silver, and Kwan bronze, I personally would have preferred to see Maria win as I enjoyed the combination of her programs the most of anyone else that season. The juxtaposition of Maria's "Scene d'Amour" and "Swan Lake" showed great versatility, beauty, drama, and shade. I'm not oblivious though to the fact that the judges and the Russian federation always preferred Slutskaya over Butyrskaya, whether justified or not. Clean Maria at times got hosed when Irina was flawed, so if they both went clean, there's no doubt in my mind that Butyrskaya would be placed behind her. I didn't particularly care for Kwan's "A Day in the Life", but I loved her "Red Violin." "A Day in the Life" did not seem to suit Michelle and she struggled with it mightily that season; it just seemed too uncomfortable and not second nature to her. I was so proud of the grit, speed, ease, and fight that Kwan displayed in her Nice LP; her inner warrior shined so brightly it was as if she transformed into beautiful Mulan on the ice. Amidst my sadness for Maria's LP, I was so thrilled for Michelle's victory there!

  19. #99

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    I actually think "A Day in the Life" might be Kwan's most underrated program. Even more so than "Miraculous Mandarin".
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  20. #100
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    I loved Kwan's short program in 2000. It was a departure from her usual style and refreshing. I think the judges did too. Some judges had her 2nd over Irina despite a very poor (albeit still clean) triple flip. Had she done that jump fairly solidly she probably would have been 2nd in that short over a clean Irina, and it would be the only time after 1999 she beat a clean Irina in the short outside of America. Maria had probably her best short program ever, and was just untouchable that day. Even the judges who hated her throughout her career had no choice but to put her first for a skate like that.

    I wasnt as fussy about Kwan's long, but there is no doubt she skated it excellent and with all out abandon that night. It also showed her versatility as using music without a real melody to it was a big risk, and difficult to pull off as well as she did.

    I might come across as a Maria hater but I am not. I just know like museksk8r the judges would never let her win an event where both Irina and Michelle skate cleanly. She would have won those worlds with a clean skate, but that is only due to Irina's mistakes and the factored scoring giving her an insurmountable lead over Kwan. Had Irina skated cleanly in the long, Maria could have never beaten her and won even going clean herself. Anyone who voted for Maria needs to read my summary of Maria's career again:

    1996 worlds- skated cleanly and lost bronze to Irina who took a huge fall and had juvenile presentation back then.
    1997 worlds- skated cleanly and lost bronze to no name Gusmeroli who had many mistakes.
    1998 Olympics- skated cleanly and lost bronze to past her prime Chen who didnt even skate perfectly.
    1999 worlds- won but the field sucked. Some junior skater who was never heard of again won the bronze that year. Had Malinina not turned out of her triple lutz in the short she would have won silver just behind Maria for sure. MALININA people, was one fluke mistake away from the world silver, for those who forget how bad that junior skater whose name I dont remember who won bronze was.

    Judges hated her and her skating. Just the way it is.

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