View Poll Results: What would the podium at 2000 Worlds have been had Irina and Maria done clean longs

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  • Kwan gold, Slutskaya silver, Butyrskaya bronze

    21 13.46%
  • Kwan gold, Butyrskaya silver, Slutskaya bronze

    5 3.21%
  • Butyrskaya gold, Slutskaya silver, Kwan bronze

    70 44.87%
  • Butyrskaya gold, Kwan silver, Slutskaya bronze

    10 6.41%
  • Slutskaya gold, Butyrskaya silver, Kwan bronze

    50 32.05%
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  1. #21

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    That night, I had wanted Butyrskaya to win.
    And Gusmeroli to get bronze.

    damn


    Maria SP... probably the best one ever :p

  2. #22
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    Gusmeroli was 7th in the qualifying round. She would have needed to beat Maria by 5 spots in the LP, Irina by 4 spots in the LP, or Kwan by 3 spots in the LP to pass one for a medal. Hughes would have needed to beat Kwan by 2 spots in the LP, Irina by 3 spots, or Maria by 4 spots.

  3. #23
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    Does anyone know what Gusmeroli landed in the qualifying?
    Was she that bad?

  4. #24
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    How the heck does Maria have so many votes. Are you people crazy. Maria is a dog. It is a bad enough the judges awarded 1 World title to such a poor skater, never mind giving her a 2nd, especialy over both a clean Slutskaya and clean Kwan, the two biggest stars of ladies skating the last 20 years. Maria is the Russian version of Tonia Kwiatkowski, an old glorirfied journeywomen.

  5. #25
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    At the 1996 Worlds Maria skated 2 clean programs and didnt even come close to beating a young Slutskaya for the bronze who took a hard fall and had other wobbles. In 1997 she was the only one besides Tara doing clean programs, especialy at the GPF where she skated perfectly and Irina and Kwan were horrible and still came 4th. At the 1998 Olympics she skated her best and lost to a technically weak Chen with poor quality jumps and poor quality spins (even the clean ones) and also alot of mistakes. At the 2002 Olympics she skated a clean short and got a 5.0 and a 10th place vote. She just sucks and the judges know it too. I have no idea how she won her World title, I think only since it was a super weak field, Kwan skated crappy, the rest of the girls sucked, and there were probably some bloc judging too. Like I said she is the Russian Kwiatkowski, an old croaky journeywomen with no special qualities. The Russian Jennifer Robinson might be another example.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanlysacek View Post
    At the 1996 Worlds Maria skated 2 clean programs and didnt even come close to beating a young Slutskaya for the bronze who took a hard fall and had other wobbles. In 1997 she was the only one besides Tara doing clean programs, especialy at the GPF where she skated perfectly and Irina and Kwan were horrible and still came 4th. At the 1998 Olympics she skated her best and lost to a technically weak Chen with poor quality jumps and poor quality spins (even the clean ones) and also alot of mistakes. At the 2002 Olympics she skated a clean short and got a 5.0 and a 10th place vote. She just sucks and the judges know it too. I have no idea how she won her World title, I think only since it was a super weak field, Kwan skated crappy, the rest of the girls sucked, and there were probably some bloc judging too. Like I said she is the Russian Kwiatkowski, an old croaky journeywomen with no special qualities. The Russian Jennifer Robinson might be another example.
    There's no way that Butyrskaya can be considered in the same tier of skaters as Kwiatkowski or Robinson - not with her speed, basic skating skills and pure jump technique. While she didn't consistently deliver - but when she dd, she was absolutely top of the class. Your interesting take on the above-noted events don't really support your view either:

    '96 Worlds - Maria returned to Words after not qualifying for the FS in '93. She was up again Slutskaya, who just won her first European title, while Maria had only won a bronze medal. From a pure clout perspective, Irina had the reputation points. Maria skated really well at Worlds - but wasn't clean in the FS and landed only 5 triples. Slutskaya wasn't clean either but landed 6 triples. Slutskaya finished 3rd, Butyrskaya finished 4th - what Slutskaya put out on the ice justified the win over Butyrskaya. It was not as you intimated that the judges simply thought Butyrskaya was a B-grade skater and that a clean skate from her didn't compare to a subpar performance from Slutskaya.

    '98 Olympics - Maria did not skate her best in the FS - in fact, it was probably her worst performance of that FS. She landed 3 triples, and arguably 2-footed the 3lutz, 3flip and doubled a 2nd toe attempt. Her jumps were the shakiest I've seen her do them - compare that to the 7-triple performance she gave at '99 Worlds. And with that content, she missed the bronze medal by just one judge's placement. That's a testament to the strength of her overall skating that she can place that high even with content that poor (consider that Slutskaya finished 5th and her FS was much cleaner than Maria's). Let's not forget that Maria also finished 3rd in the SP after skating 1st out of 30 skaters, and was clearly viewed by judges to be in another league to Lu Chen who was 4th in the SP with a clean skate.

    2002 Olympics - she was clean in the SP, but her combo and flip were shakier than how she had done them earlier in the year (see, for example, Europeans). Yet, she still got a good number of 3rd place ordinals. In any event, the ordinals were crazy in that Olympics SP.

    How did she win '99 Worlds? Simple, she skated clean and to her potential. 7 triples in her FS - very good speed, solid landings throughout. She skated the way the judges always believed she could skate and saw her perform in practices. There was no bloc judging, and Kwan aside, the other girls were quite strong that year. Not many ladies can claim they won Worlds with a 7-triple performance, and Maria with all her ups and downs can. Her 2000 Worlds SP a year later proved that if she could nail the elements without getting tripped up by her nerves, then the judges were willing to mark her very highly. The only regrettable thing about Maria's career is that more often than not, she did let the nerves get the better of her. That she won so many medals and titles inspite of her nerves was a testament to the quality of her skating and that the judges most definitely did not view her as a second tier skater.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    Does anyone know what Gusmeroli landed in the qualifying?
    Was she that bad?
    Gusmeroli was probably poor in qualifying, however the qualifying groups that year were rather uneven

    Group A

    1) Slutskaya (2nd)
    2) Kwan (1st)
    3) Hughes (5th)
    4) Volchkova (6th)
    5) Nikodinov (9th)
    6) Robinson (8th)
    7) Gusmeroli (4th)
    8) Onda (12th)

    but then in the other group

    1) Butyrskaya (3rd)
    2) Kierkgaard (11th)
    3) Sebestyén (7th)
    4) Liashenko (10th)
    5) Malinina (18th)
    6) Douchine (17th)
    7) Drei (15th)
    8) Lundström (20th)

    7 of the top 10 finishers overall were in Group A

  8. #28
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    Awww, Mikkeline! That was her year, second in her qualifying group, just crazy! She fell through a bit in the sp, stepping out of her 3l, but came back with a strong, really gorgeous FS. She didn't need the harder triples to be a totally special skater I could watch all day.

    Anna Lundström was also a beautiful skater, don't know what happened to her.

    Back to topic, my favourite at these worlds were alway Gusmeroli. How much I loved Maria, her FS was blah, Irina and Kwan didn't do much for me either, and Volchkova couldn't skate a clean program to save her life. So then, who wins? I didnt really care, I just wanted a medal for Vanessa so badly. (btw didn't Liashenko skate her beautiful FS to Grieg'a piano concert. Loved that to!)

  9. #29
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    The panel was all European judges so obviously one of Slutskaya or Butyrskaya. Based on how they scored the long programs, probably Slutskaya. Butyrskaya made mistakes but didnt skate that much worse than Slutskaya, yet her scores were much lower, so if both skated great it probably would be 1. Slutskaya, 2. Butyrskaya, 3. Kwan. Maria was much more artistic than Irina, but it never seemed to matter and the Russian federation always favored Slutskaya over Butyrskaya. It makes no sense since with people like Kwan, Chen, and Cohen they should have favored the more artistic skater who was also strong in technical to combat such people, yet instead chose the path of trying to push and promote a technical only skater and have to fool people into thinking she was artistic too. Maybe it is because they never forgave Maria for costing Russia a spot at the 1994 Olympics which humiliated the whole country forever, or since she was already too old when she started skating her best in 1996.

  10. #30
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    Maria would have won the title then the sport of figure skating would have had a new judging system even sooner since a crappy skater like Maria winning Worlds over clean Kwan and clean Slutskaya would already be enough to show they needed to break down how they were scoring it. So COP would have just arisen two years sooner is all.

  11. #31
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    Maria would win for sure considering she didnt skate cleanly in 2 of her 3 programs and still was robbed of the gold overall. With both skating cleanly Slutskaya would edge Kwan for silver, as Kwan has never beaten a clean Slutskaya before (I mean the real Irina from 99 onwards, not Irina 1.0).

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolosozharGOAT View Post
    Maria would win for sure considering she didnt skate cleanly in 2 of her 3 programs and still was robbed of the gold overall. With both skating cleanly Slutskaya would edge Kwan for silver, as Kwan has never beaten a clean Slutskaya before (I mean the real Irina from 99 onwards, not Irina 1.0).
    ???

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    ???
    He probably means even with her mistakes Maria should have placed 2nd in the long which would have given her the gold. At the time of the event there are many who felt that way too, so it would hardly be an unreasonable thought.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    Maria would have won the title then the sport of figure skating would have had a new judging system even sooner since a crappy skater like Maria winning Worlds over clean Kwan and clean Slutskaya would already be enough to show they needed to break down how they were scoring it. So COP would have just arisen two years sooner is all.
    Quote Originally Posted by VolosozharGOAT View Post
    Maria would win for sure considering she didnt skate cleanly in 2 of her 3 programs and still was robbed of the gold overall. With both skating cleanly Slutskaya would edge Kwan for silver, as Kwan has never beaten a clean Slutskaya before (I mean the real Irina from 99 onwards, not Irina 1.0).
    Quote Originally Posted by dorianhotel View Post
    He probably means even with her mistakes Maria should have placed 2nd in the long which would have given her the gold. At the time of the event there are many who felt that way too, so it would hardly be an unreasonable thought.
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    ???
    If this doesn't clear up your confusion, briancoogaert, clean out your "In" Box and send me a private message.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post

    As to the two Russians, I think a clean Slutskaya would have placed ahead of a clean Butryskaya. Slutskaya did do a clean program, but she doubled some jumps. Here is her jump list as skated: 3Lz-2Lo, 2S, 3S-2Lo, 3Lz, 3Lo, 3F, 2A, 3T
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKXbxrqYz38
    It is hard to say what a fully skated program would have been. She doubled two loops and a salchow, but all three of those could not have been planned as triples as that would have her repeating three different triple jumps. The 2-Lo on the Lutz combo was planned as a double. The commentators talk like the solo 2S was planned as a triple. That means she would have had to leave out the solo 3Lo or solo 3Lz, or perhaps do the combo as 2S-3Lo to stay within the rules for repeating triples.
    Well, Irina didn't plan 2 triple salchows. She repeated the salchow because she doubled her 1st attempt.
    Her layout would have been 3Lz-2Lo, 3S-3Lo, 3Lz, 3Lo, 3F, 2A, 3T, and she would have held the flying camel longer.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    Maria would have won the title then the sport of figure skating would have had a new judging system even sooner since a crappy skater like Maria winning Worlds over clean Kwan and clean Slutskaya would already be enough to show they needed to break down how they were scoring it. So COP would have just arisen two years sooner is all.
    You know what, I totally agree! I have nothing against Maria, but sheesh idk how she was ever compared to Kwan/Slutskaya.

  17. #37
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    Had Maria won the title (probably with or without a cleanish skate) it would have been mostly based on her short program which was truly outstanding, and fully deserving of 1st place. And I say that as a noted Butyrskaya "basher" according to most people here, I do admit I like to give both her and Fumie a hard time over the years. Her Swan Lake was back to showing all the typical flaws of her skating though, when you compare it to say Baiul's stunning Swan Lake or even Urmanov's you just laugh, and then when she made major mistakes with that she was toast as long as Kwan and Slutskaya skated well.

  18. #38
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    Anyone who thinks Slutskaya wouldnt have won is crazy. Had she just skated a clean program with 7 triples, not even doing a triple-triple like Kwan or a triple-triple sequence like Maria had planned, even that would have won it for her easy. The marks she got for her flawed 6 triple performance already make that obvious. She got very generous marks for both technical merit and presentation, especialy when you consider she sacrificed a large chunk of choreography to throw in another jump she popped and still didnt do it. 5 of the 9 judges gave her a higher technical mark than Kwan, some .2 higher, even with a performance with a mistake and much less completed content. 3 of the 9 judges gave her a higher mark than Michelle for presentation, including 2 who didnt even give her a higher technical mark. So just imagine an even slightly better skate. She probably had planned atleast a triple salchow-triple loop which would have made her win all the more emphatic, but she didnt even need to have bothered with that if she didnt want.

    I dont know why more are voting for Maria than Irina. Maria's long program sucked, and could not even approach the level of her short program performance even if she were clean. She didnt have 2 triple lutzes planned like both Kwan and Slutskaya did, and a triple-triple sequence is worth almost nothing extra, it is far less valuable than even the triple toe-triple toe Kwan included. I am not sure if she would have even beaten Michelle in the long program since Michelle skated so great that night and had very good marks, but since a clean Irina was easily winning the long anyway it wouldnt matter since Maria 2nd Michelle 3rd, Maria 3rd Michelle 2nd, both add up to Maria silver and Michelle bronze overall. Those of you who think Maria (or Michelle, but especialy Maria) would have been marked over a perfect Irina are crazy. The judges held Irina up and nearly gave her the gold even with her mistakes, and hammered Maria and gave her super low marks, almost losing to Gusmeroli in the long program with just a couple errors. With Irina's subpar skate, Maria would have come 1st or 2nd in the long to win had she gone clean, but not if Irina also did. I guess Maria fans are crazy as Yu Na Kim ones.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Kwan never lost an FS when she landed a jump list like that
    That doesnt mean anything really. Kwan hardly ever faced a main rival skating that well the very limited number of times she landed a jump list like that. Slutskaya never lost a competition she skated a clean long program in after 1997, does that automatically mean it never could have happened too. For a real laugh Butyrskaya (who was never a gold contender outside 99-2000) never lost a competition she skated a clean long program after 1996, does that mean had she always skated cleanly with atleast 6 triples she would win every competition after 1996? Given that the most consistent singles skaters skate clean with their best content only about 10% of the time, it is no surprise they all probably never lost when doing so. It doesnt mean in some unlikely hypothetical more than one did they wouldnt ever have.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripingroar37 View Post
    That doesnt mean anything really. Kwan hardly ever faced a main rival skating that well the very limited number of times she landed a jump list like that. Slutskaya never lost a competition she skated a clean long program in after 1997, does that automatically mean it never could have happened too. For a real laugh Butyrskaya (who was never a gold contender outside 99-2000) never lost a competition she skated a clean long program after 1996, does that mean had she always skated cleanly with atleast 6 triples she would win every competition after 1996? Given that the most consistent singles skaters skate clean with their best content only about 10% of the time, it is no surprise they all probably never lost when doing so. It doesnt mean in some unlikely hypothetical more than one did they wouldnt ever have.
    Slutskaya lost SLC.

    Butyrskaya lost that infamous 2000 NHK. If you are just looking for 6 triples, then there's 2001 Worlds too.

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