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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    Take a look at his junior worlds records, he got 2nd place first time(pretty impressive), got 7th the second year, and then got 8th at his third JWs, a 13 year old Yagudin even placed 4th that time. Quite often posters on this board moan that he couldn't do well because he had to compete against Urmanov, kulik, Yagudin and Plushenko, but Urmanov and Plushenko weren't even there at 93-94 JWs, kulik placed behind him, Yagudin placed way above him. I can't see it's anyone else's fault.
    Well look at Sasha in 1991 and two / three years later. He was very tiny in 1991 and obviously had really heavy growth spurts afterwards - just look what lesser sprints did to Gachinski’s jumps and when Plushenko was not able to land a quad at 2000 Worlds Mishin also cited a growth spurt as making his jumps unstable.

    Add to that a coaching change starting to take effect and doing military service – even if you probably have better conditions in military when you are an athlete, it still adds a disadvantage compared to other athletes. I think it was Alexander Uspenski who once in an Interview quite openly admitted that he went to university for the main reason that students don’t have to do military service in Russia. That gives you an impression that going to military is not really helpful to boost one’s skating career.

    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    And RNs, he placed 4th twice and then 18th in 1995? What happened? I don't think the RF supported other young guns more than Abt by that time yet.
    Sasha didn’t compete at 1995/96 Nationals, as he had to sit them out due to knee injury. And the next year he placed 7th and not 18th. But yes – all the others, Urmanov, Yagudin, Plushenko placed (deservedly) above him for the one reason that he just had been on the ice for a couple of weeks after a really bad injury and entered that competition knowing that he was unable to perform a 3 Axel yet. That’s what I meant with bad timing – it gave the other guys a chance to overtake him in the rankings at Russian Nats. And the next year it was pretty obvious that Russian Fed supported other the youngsters far more than Abt.

    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    His international GP records were not as good as the others either during the 97-98 season. These guys did not even compete at the same GP events, I don't think anyone from Russian team robbed him.
    I apparently missed that placement at Russian Nats were decided based on GP placements that year, because I referred to robbery at Russian Nats that year and not during the GP.

    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    Why I have this feeling that if he skated at his international competitions better than his teammates most of the time instead of just , then even his lower placement at RNs shouldn't really matter?
    1. because the lower placement at RN occasionally didn’t allow him to skate at major international competitions
    2. because he skated better a number of times at international competitions and was still placed behind his worse skating teammates (EC 2002, SLC SP, WC 2000 QR ….).
    Come on, it’s not like that matters only in Russia if you are no. 1, 2 or 3 in your team or if a skater has support by his own fed when competing internationally.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    YOu must have not been around when Abt got drunk on an international flight and caused problems. There was actually a vid on you tube (since removed) which recorded his behavior,
    http://www.besttopnews.com/idols/sca...8/70151-abt-0/
    And you on the other hand did not get that focus point of discussion was on Sasha’s eligible career and that video was taken after he turned pro a couple of years ago on a private flight (so not on the way to competition or something). And yes – that was just incredibly stupid. But he was certainly not the only Russian skater who behaved icredibly stupid – as it was mentioned here, other skaters of that generation were quite famous for liking to drink and party. Let me list a few incidents:

    * a skater harassing people on street when skating in a competition abroad that he was actually suspended from competition for a while
    * a skater (who was attached to another skater that time) touching the breast of one fan being around at that party.
    * a skater driving his car drunk
    * a skater driving his car drunk severely injuring other people
    * a skater almost setting his room in fire after

    That’s all stories who I either got from reliable first hand witnesses (= not rumours) or which were even in the media, though I will not link any information here. Those who know who is meant know anyways and I think there is no reason to make personal mistakes of these guys even more public than they already became anyways.
    Interestingly, when skaters involved in the listed incidents are discussed, it’s not like any time someone is pointing finger saying “did that”, while each time Abt’s career is discussed this “don’t drink & fly” video is always linked.


    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    The rumours circulated said the reason for some of his injuries were being drunk on the ice. Apparently having 2 sharp blades attached to your feet when dead drunk is not smart. Who would have though (not Abt, obviously).
    “Rumours circulated on some injuries” – now that’s what I call precise evidence. But still you of course know which one! Honestly it’s not like crashing the board or cutting yourself or even worse someone else with the own blade is the classical accident one can sustain only when being drunk (at least I have not heard that of e.g. Kaetlyn Weaver to name a recent example or Yagudin who managed twice to get injured when crashing the boards with his head/hand). It happens to skaters to crash boards occasionally, some get injured (= bad luck), some not (luck). You know, spreading such theories without evidence is close to reputational damage. +

    Don’t you think if this accident happened after let’s say Sasha had drunk a bottle of Vodka before going on the ice it had not been reported by more reliable sources than "rumours circulated", in particular if you consider that Arutunian was pretty unpopular with his own Fed? Have you ever thought that rumours might be spread around by purpose?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gypsy View Post
    Also, I did watch the video on the news site...can anyone translate what Sasha is saying?
    It now worked on my computer and translating word by word he says “I returned to sport, I decided to compete in pairs with the pretty girl Dasha and will compete for Belarus.” But as TAHbKA I’m sure he is kidding!

    (*sigh of relief* from my side!)

    Crazy that media reported it in a way one might believe that this was for real! Plushy would already have sued them.

  4. #64
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    [QUOTE=Katarzyna;3893210]And you on the other hand did not get that focus point of discussion was on Sasha’s eligible career and that video was taken after he turned pro a couple of years ago on a private flight (so not on the way to competition or something). And yes – that was just incredibly stupid. But he was certainly not the only Russian skater who behaved icredibly stupid – as it was mentioned here, other skaters of that generation were quite famous for liking to drink and party. Let me list a few incidents:

    The focus point of the discussion may have been on his eligible career (but that hardly means others aren't free to discuss other points), but there also has been a discussion of his possible problem with alcohol and again if someone wants to discuss the appearances of that problem during his eligible and pro careers that is their choice.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    The focus point of the discussion may have been on his eligible career (but that hardly means others aren't free to discuss other points), but there also has been a discussion of his possible problem with alcohol and again if someone wants to discuss the appearances of that problem during his eligible and pro careers that is their choice.
    Feel free to post whatever you want, it's certainly not like I was playing board police and trying to restrict you in that! However, others are also entitled to refer to your posts and add facts if they consider that they might be misleading otherwise, like I did when mentioning that the incident you referred to just happened a couple of years ago and not during eligible years. I actually referred to a possible problem with & in one of my previous posts referring to Sasha’s pro career (though more subtle without feeling the need to post that embarrassing video).
    But again, it’s not like other Russian skaters never and did stupid things when being .

    Drinking unfortunately is a big problem in Russia and deeply inherited in Russian Culture (my own Russian coach proposed Vodka as support, when I was really nervous before a skating test – can’t imagine such a proposal ever coming from an Austrian coach). It’s much easier to get into troubles with that kind of background, but unfortunately also much harder to get out of them.

  6. #66
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    There can be multiple causes for why someone didn't live up to their potential. It's not like everyone who is consistent is and everyone who is inconsistent is

    I'm sure Abt's smoking and drinking contributed along with other things. I don't see many people saying he wuzrobbed in every event of his career. Mainly people focus on a couple of events in 2002 where they think he was robbed, and that was the season he apparently hunkered down and really trained.

    I think the real problem is that the skater's history always follows them on the ice. If he trained well and skated well enough to beat Yagudin in a particular competition, then he should have beaten him regardless of poor training habits of the past, but the judges consider things like reputation in the marks. Why would they give Abt a European title instead of the Olympic gold medal hopeful, Yagudin, when they know that Abt is probably going to screw up in the next competition? I haven't even watched 2002 Euros in a while. I remember thinking Abt was better, but probably to beat a skater with a reputation like Yagudin's he had to skate twice as well, not just a little better.
    Last edited by Cherub721; 04-05-2013 at 03:58 PM.

  7. #67
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    Abt certainly had admirable qualities. His edges were just to die for, and nobody had the run of blade like him. I just wish he had better routines and that he fixed his carriage and posture. There was always something off about it to me.

  8. #68

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    Abt certainly had admirable qualities. His edges were just to die for, and nobody had the run of blade like him.
    How true. And this level of talent and skill is what makes the debate about Sasha so passionate. So much talent and in the end, for whatever the reasons, not anywhere near a realization of his potential. There were glimpses and moments of Sasha Abt at his best and they were just inspiring and gorgeous (and I'm not talking about his face, I'm talking about his skating) - I think we all wish we could have seen him take his exceptional talent and really work career magic with it. A frustrating story to watch and for him I imagine a frustrating story to live. I hope, and I know I'm not alone, that all is well with him these days.
    Last edited by Willowway; 04-05-2013 at 08:26 PM.

  9. #69
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    The website for Aviator was updated in early March and Abt is listed as a coach there. So unless he has left since then, he appears to still be coaching there.

    http://www.aviatorsports.com/content...-instructors-1

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I think the real problem is that the skater's history always follows them on the ice. If he trained well and skated well enough to beat Yagudin in a particular competition, then he should have beaten him regardless of poor training habits of the past, but the judges consider things like reputation in the marks. Why would they give Abt a European title instead of the Olympic gold medal hopeful, Yagudin, when they know that Abt is probably going to screw up in the next competition? I haven't even watched 2002 Euros in a while. I remember thinking Abt was better, but probably to beat a skater with a reputation like Yagudin's he had to skate twice as well, not just a little better.
    I suspect that the fact that it was an Olympic year played a big part in the outcome of that competition, the Oly gold medal was to be discussed between Yagudin and Plushenko and the judges weren't willing to throw a third russian in the mix, maybe if Abt wasn't russian it would have been different... IIRC at the time the judges justified the decision with Alexei having a more difficult program, I'm not entirely sure if that was it but I recall reading some justification.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    Well look at Sasha in 1991 and two / three years later. He was very tiny in 1991 and obviously had really heavy growth spurts afterwards - just look what lesser sprints did to Gachinski’s jumps and when Plushenko was not able to land a quad at 2000 Worlds Misin also cited a growth spurt as making his jumps unstable.

    Add to that a coaching change starting to take effect and doing military service – even if you probably have better conditions in military when you are an athlete, it still adds a disadvantage compared to other athletes. I think it was Alexander Uspenski who once in an Interview quite openly admitted that he went to university for the main reason that students don’t have to do military service in Russia. That gives you an impression that going to military is not really helpful to boost one’s skating career.


    Sasha didn’t compete at 1995/96 Nationals, as he had to sit them out due to knee injury. And the next year he placed 7th and not 18th. But yes – all the others, Urmanov, Yagudin, Plushenko placed (deservedly) above him for the one reason that he just had been on the ice for a couple of weeks after a really bad injury and entered that competition knowing that he was unable to perform a 3 Axel yet. That’s what I meant with bad timing – it gave the other guys a chance to overtake him in the rankings at Russian Nats. And the next year it was pretty obvious that Russian Fed supported other the youngsters far more than Abt.

    About the 95 RN, that makes sense. If he's 18th, there must be something insanely wrong. Thanks for the clarification. Growth spurt, military service, hope that's the real reason. But those problems other skaters could have experienced too. The military service, I don't know what it is like and why once again only Abt had the problem. As far as I know very few Russian elite athletes(I mean athletes, not just skaters) managed to finish the higher education and compete at the same time during 90s and early 2000s, lots of skaters did not even finish their 10 years general education, not to mention the university. I've read interviews from many Russian skaters said it's too hard to train and study at the same time. The only Russian skater I can think of who competed at the highest level with an excellent Academic result is Yagudin. So I guess the military problem is not so exclusive?



    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    I apparently missed that placement at Russian Nats were decided based on GP placements that year, because I referred to robbery at Russian Nats that year and not during the GP.


    1. because the lower placement at RN occasionally didn’t allow him to skate at major international competitions
    2. because he skated better a number of times at international competitions and was still placed behind his worse skating teammates (EC 2002, SLC SP, WC 2000 QR ….).
    Come on, it’s not like that matters only in Russia if you are no. 1, 2 or 3 in your team or if a skater has support by his own fed when competing internationally.
    Come on, you know for Russians, RN is not the only decisive event for international competitions, right? Besides by the time when he competed with Yagudin and Plushenko, that two guys did so good that Russian team could always get 3 spots, and Abt was always the one got that 3rd spot. Actually he lost more chances for big competitions when he competed against Urmanov and Kulik, that's before he got that nasty injury.

    As for EC 2002, I am sure the amount of people thinking that Abt's robbed or Yagudin deserved to win would be pretty close. Yagudin won 5:4, it's a close competition anyway. Yagudin skated a more difficult program, other than the jumping mistakes, he skated brilliantly and got a lot of standing ovations from the audience.
    SLC SP, no comment, WC 2000 QR, dunno what happened.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceIceBaby View Post
    wasn't Yagudin also a quite a party man (especially with ladies).
    I heard that he's the kind of person always needed some time to fool around with friends. It's just about if he let those things affect his career. If he could compete and study in school at the same time, and both got excellent results, and still found some time to have fun, then he's the true genius. Whether he liked to party with women or men, that's his personal life, none of anyone's business.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post

    Crazy that media reported it in a way one might believe that this was for real! Plushy would already have sued them.
    You are so malicius. First of all Plushy doesn't drink and he has never been such a problem, unlike another famous Russian skater whose name I won't tell you. Second, he sued twice journalist, despite the yellow press constantly lying on them. For example they wrote, Yana wasn't pregnant, surrogate mother gave birth his son!!! and so on...never ending stupid lies... He and his wife are too big stars, the yellow press wants to sell the newspapers.
    first time: journalists claimed more than once that his marriage with Yana a PR trick. Constantly wrote this. That's a lie.
    Second, right now. This is also a lie. Plushy had surgery in Israel.
    Two parts of his latest interview:

    P:" He said such things and it made me angry. I had a rough career in my sport life. My last operation, the 13th one, was the most difficult. It lasted for 3 hours and a half, they removed my intervertebral disc, put a polymer one and inserted 4 screws there. So, when a man tells to the whole country that it was all a PR lie, then of course I got mad. In fact I would have accepted his apology and nothing afterwards would have taken place if he had called me and apologized like a Man is supposed to do. Unfortunately, it didn't happen. Moreover, when someone asked him why he hadn't apologized, he said "Why should I if Plushenko didn't call me?" Such attitude is just plain rude. I was working hard for my entire life to make my name and earn the trust of people. I didn't do all this to be humiliated by some journalist who simply called me a PR liar."

    P: "Well, I think if you are a sport journalist, you should comment sport precisely and nothing else. No need to comment my personal life, my wife, my kids, my so-called "show business" or whatever. I am not doing any show business. Yes, I have a lot of friends in that field. Probably some people are too concerned about the fact that I have so many friends in show business, in politics, in the theatre and movie worlds. I think journalists should have a more professional approach to their work. If they comment figure skating, so please study this sport, like the difference between lutz and flip jumps. That is what they should talk about: technical skills, programs of skaters, their costumes, choreography, so on. Journalists have to study figure skating before being assigned to comment this sport."

    I' m truly believe he is right.
    Last edited by lala; 04-06-2013 at 12:17 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    About the 95 RN, that makes sense. If he's 18th, there must be something insanely wrong. Thanks for the clarification. Growth spurt, military service, hope that's the real reason. But those problems other skaters could have experienced too. The military service, I don't know what it is like and why once again only Abt had the problem. As far as I know very few Russian elite athletes(I mean athletes, not just skaters) managed to finish the higher education and compete at the same time during 90s and early 2000s, lots of skaters did not even finish their 10 years general education, not to mention the university. I've read interviews from many Russian skaters said it's too hard to train and study at the same time. The only Russian skater I can think of who competed at the highest level with an excellent Academic result is Yagudin. So I guess the military problem is not so exclusive?
    LOL! Because you have informations about Yagudin, only. Plushenko has two excellent "Academic" results, (if I undertsand you )

    Plushenko has graduated from the Lesgaft National State University of Physical Education, Sport and Health (the coach department ) and as well the Saint Petersburg State University of Engineering and Economics, Tourism courses or something like this. (His first wife's father was owner of many hotels)

    Yagudin has graduated from the Lesgaft University too (I don't know what department)

    Otherwise what does that mean "Academic reasult"? University degree?
    Last edited by lala; 04-06-2013 at 09:00 AM.

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    The military service, I don't know what it is like and why once again only Abt had the problem.
    No, not only. I recall a couple of years ago there were a few skaters who suddenly were drafted. I can't recall who it was, certainly young single skaters, think it was Lutai and Dobrin, but could be completely wrong.
    Kulik's army service problems (or rather, his ignoring the army) made him stay away from Russia till he was 30 or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    As far as I know very few Russian elite athletes(I mean athletes, not just skaters) managed to finish the higher education and compete at the same time during 90s and early 2000s, lots of skaters did not even finish their 10 years general education, not to mention the university. I've read interviews from many Russian skaters said it's too hard to train and study at the same time. The only Russian skater I can think of who competed at the highest level with an excellent Academic result is Yagudin. So I guess the military problem is not so exclusive?
    Afaik (I could be a bit wrong here) every man in Russia has to either serve in the army or get accepted to a university. Most of them make it to the uni, but, apparently, not all. As for the education - sometimes some skaters post on the figure skating boards. They can't spell (in Russian!) to save their lives! I don't remember Abt ever posting in any Russian forum, but I was in ave realizing Averbukh's spelling skills (have to admit it seems to have changed and the guy either learned to spell or to use a speller).
    Yagudin mentioned in his interviews time after time his mother insisted he went to a school and was a good pupil, the sport was somehow less important. I assume it would work for someone like Yagudin, who comes from St. P and his mother doesn't have to work as a cleaner to support him. I guess with a skater who comes from the middle of nowhere and their parents have to work as cleaner to support their skating the academic achievements would be less important.
    All that said am quite impressed with Trankov, who seem to be able to spell just fine in Russian, is comprehensible in English, is not studying physical education like all the Russian skaters do and all that from a guy who came from nowhere and was recycling bottles for money when he was 16.

  16. #76
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    About Euros 2002, IIRC it was a 6-3 split in the judging panel. No standing ovation at all for Yags (I was there). Being a crazy über for both skater, (not in any way healthy lol, I can be seen in the stands on tv crying and falling apart with joy and disbelief after Sasha's FS ), I can certainly say Sasha deserved the victory that night. Both had good QR and good SP, I loved the Armenian porgram to death, it was SO good, but Yagudin was on fire in the short, his Winter was even better than in SLC, he was more precise to the music. I had no problem with him winning the short, though both skated clean, with the same jump content. Yags was pure magic. In the free, Yags was not his usual self. Sasha simply skated better. He was close to clean, (minor things on landings and so) with so much flow and quality edges, great spins and total it-factor. The whole package really worked. Yagudin lacked energy. He made mistakes on his 3l (doubled?), then changed the program to do it again, same mistake. It took a lot away from the choreo. I seem to recall he also made mistake on the second quad, but I have to go back and rewatch that. Anyway, as a whole, the performance didn't work, it was a struggle, though ok, but not special. Not saying Sasha's Rach was perfect, he skated a bit back and forth, but MITIM was not in normal Yags standard that night. But, I can see the judges didn't want him to loose right before the Olympics, and I'm greatful for that. I'd rather want Olys gold for Yagudin, then Euros gold for Sasha, if I had to choose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    Come on, you know for Russians, RN is not the only decisive event for international competitions, right? Besides by the time when he competed with Yagudin and Plushenko, that two guys did so good that Russian team could always get 3 spots, and Abt was always the one got that 3rd spot. Actually he lost more chances for big competitions when he competed against Urmanov and Kulik, that's before he got that nasty injury.
    You are not quite right. Sasha’s troubles with injuries started in 1995, he was actually nominated to compete at Euros in 1995, but couldn`t due – I don’t dare to say – but injury. He had a close race with Kulik from 1994 to 1995, with once Sasha being ahead of Kulik and then it was the other way round (e.g. at RN in 94). Regarding Urmanov it’s pretty harsh to expect a just 17 year old teenager to beat a mature Olympic Champion.

    However, in 93/94 when Sasha competed first time at RN he was not beaten by Ilia Kulik but by Urmanov, Tataurov and Pashkevitch, all much older and mature skaters. However as far as I know his 4th place was questionable, it was mentioned that zzz-Tataurov should not have placed above him.

    Here is a video of young Sasha Russian Natinals (skating his SP at the Gala at RN 1994/95): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJyRoq4xjcA

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    I' m truly believe he is right.
    lala – apparently you didn’t understand the meaning of the icon in my post.

    If Plushenko sues the press for writing things not true that harm him, it’s his good right to do so. You might argue that it was not particularly smart of Sasha kidding that way in front of journalists, but then it’s not ok from press make that kind of headline. I don’t think that this kind of press was helpful for Sasha’s coaching career. – Just think how it might have been pursued by the management of Aviator, his students and their parents? Simply that he might have decided to quit coaching in Brooklyn as he made an irrational decision to start pairs skating.

    That was my hint – that they’d be careful, cause others might have taken action against such coverage and rightly so. Maybe not immediate law suit, but first a simple call to put things in a way that they are understood right.

    Anyways, when checking if this pairs-rumour was right, I discovered that Sasha is getting quite a lot of good media coverage for his coaching activities right now. As Iceman mentioned he is coaching at Aviator / Brooklyn, but recently he has also been giving masterclasses all across Russia (Moscow (Sokolniki), Murmansk, Severomorsk, Kaluga, Tula) and in Minsk. Here are some local media reports with video clips:

    http://nikatv.ru/index.php/sport/101...-10-28-48.html
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdyRr...layer_embedded

    And here is a short interview – will translate soon:
    http://news.21.by/other-news/2013/02/26/722714.html

    I'm excited that he gets some media attention as a coach – that’s a big step forward!

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    lala – apparently you didn’t understand the meaning of the icon in my post.

    If Plushenko sues the press for writing things not true that harm him, it’s his good right to do so. You might argue that it was not particularly smart of Sasha kidding that way in front of journalists, but then it’s not ok from press make that kind of headline. I don’t think that this kind of press was helpful for Sasha’s coaching career. – Just think how it might have been pursued by the management of Aviator, his students and their parents? Simply that he might have decided to quit coaching in Brooklyn as he made an irrational decision to start pairs skating.

    That was my hint – that they’d be careful, cause others might have taken action against such coverage and rightly so. Maybe not immediate law suit, but first a simple call to put things in a way that they are understood right.

    Anyways, when checking if this pairs-rumour was right, I discovered that Sasha is getting quite a lot of good media coverage for his coaching activities right now. As Iceman mentioned he is coaching at Aviator / Brooklyn, but recently he has also been giving masterclasses all across Russia (Moscow (Sokolniki), Murmansk, Severomorsk, Kaluga, Tula) and in Minsk. Here are some local media reports with video clips:

    http://nikatv.ru/index.php/sport/101...-10-28-48.html
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdyRr...layer_embedded

    And here is a short interview – will translate soon:
    http://news.21.by/other-news/2013/02/26/722714.html

    I'm excited that he gets some media attention as a coach – that’s a big step forward!
    Oh I understand. I remembered, when Sacha was actor in a Russian Tv-series. I watched some parts of them on Youtube. I didn't know, that he is working as a coach now. And I agree with you, this story like this, isn't too good for him, if he wants to be a good and recognized coach. But I really want to him the best!
    Last edited by lala; 04-06-2013 at 08:53 PM.

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I wonder if people will continue to swoon over his skating when they are really just swooning over this looks. It's not as if his actual skating was really worth all the attention he got.
    He is not really good looking, but his skating was lovely. I think you are weird.

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