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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSfan107 View Post
    I've always perceived Skate Canada as one of the more powerful Federations in figure skating. That's not to say that their skaters don't earn their places. As Worlds showed, they have without a doubt the strongest team across all of the four disciplines. I took Vasiliev to be saying Ten would have won if he was representing a country with a stronger skating Federation, which I tend to agree with.
    If Javier Fernandez went out there and skated like Denis Ten, he would have won, and the Spanish federation isn't exactly "powerful". And I have a feeling if Andrei Rogozine went out there and skated exactly the same as Ten he definitely wouldn't have been guaranteed the victory just by being Canadian. The judges just do not seem eager to crown someone a World Champ when they have never even been good enough to earn a GP medal before (in fact, Ten really hasn't even come close-- his turnaround at Worlds was truly remarkable). I think to some extent the judges may have the mentality of, "How can you have a World Champ who on most days isn't even close to being the world's best skater?" I don't think it has much to do with country.

    I wonder if Vasiliev thinks that Yuna's scores would go up by 20-30 pts if she skated for a country like Russia. Maybe Carolina Kostner's scores would go up if she were Russian instead of Italian, too. I just get the impression that Vasiliev hasn't really been keeping up with skating all that well and is still stuck a bit in the olden days.
    Last edited by stjeaskategym; 03-30-2013 at 09:48 AM.

  2. #22
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    If Javier Fernandez went out there and skated like Denis Ten, he would have won, and the Spanish federation isn't exactly "powerful".
    No, the Spanish Federation isn't a powerful federation but please remember who is coaching Javier. Yes, Orser, and Orser is a Canadian. Some people have said Fernandez is one of the most overscored skaters in the current field, he has mediocre skating skills and the only light thing in his skating is his jumps, so how does he get such high PC marks? Orser is also coaching Yuzuru and there've been quite a few complaints about Hanyu too being overmarked on several occasions. And how do we know Denis Ten wasn't overscored at Worlds? If Lori Nichol was speaking nicely of Patrick Chan to the judges in the past, once Chan parted ways with Nichol, maybe Nichol started speaking nicely of Denis Ten to the judges as Ten's choreographer. Also, could Lori choreographing for Carolina Kostner explain Kostner's high PC marks falls or no falls? It really looks like all the roads in the overscoring business lead to Canada.

    And I have a feeling if Andrei Rogozine went out there and skated exactly the same as Ten he definitely wouldn't have been guaranteed the victory just by being Canadian.
    Rogozine was a strange case to me at these recent Worlds where he had a much stronger FS performance than Brezina who fell two times. Andrei did win the technical mark to Michal but lost the components mark by nearly nine points.

  3. #23

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    Most of the times, Carolina's PCS are being attributed directly to Cinquanta

  4. #24
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    Federation power? What qualities must a federation have in order to be powerful? And judges really succumb to that power in their judging? How is that pulled off? Threats, money.......?

  5. #25

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    I'm still perplexed by the suggestion that Ten was underscored at all, let alone by 20-30 points. He scored 266.38 points, 14 points below the WR total score and 7th on the all-time highest score list, despite having a free skate (although marvelous) with only one quad and six triples. He smashed his SB freeskate score by almost 50 points. He got much bigger PCS and GOE scores than he's ever had before. I quite honestly cannot see where you could generate another 20-30 points out of Ten's skate without throwing him 10's across the board. Does Vasiliev, or anyone else, actually think he deserved that?

    I don't doubt that the Canadian Fed promotes its skaters any less than any of the other feds do. But I fail to see the quid pro quo in this situation. What does any individual judge, other than a Canadian one, gain by giving Chan higher marks than they think he deserves? What do they gain by "holding back" a Kazakh skater? For all of the faults of the current system, its complexity has made it pretty much impossible for Feds to trade votes the way they did in the 6.0 days. I doubt any individual judge even knew whether he or she had 'placed' Ten or Chan first, given that your mental math abilities have to be pretty sharp to factor GOES for 18 elements, add them to the base value, add together the five PCS, factor them, and then divide the difference between Ten and Chan's short program scores by 7 (assuming each judge whose scores are counted is responsible for one seventh of the total score) to see if they had Ten ahead by enough in the free to go ahead of Chan overall, all in a matter of seconds. The result was just far too close to imagine that "the judges" were trying to hand a win to Chan. It's a knee-jerk reaction to cry "politics!" when one disagrees with a result that doesn't reflect the reality of the current judging system.

  6. #26

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    Ten's scores were perfect for what he put on the ice. He was scored fairly. What others around his scored is what most people who watch skating are arguing over. Fans forget Ten won the LP by several points. I was also there and four levels from the ice when Ten made his Worlds debut and thought his score was fair there as well, but I know I'm in the minority.

    As for federation, I think with Ten it's more Frank Carroll than anything. Look at Yuna Kim. No one can say the South Korean Federation had ANY pull when she came along, or even the Italian federation and Kostner. Not exactly a skating powerhouse. While I do think at times, not all the times, the judges might pay more initial attention to a skater from Russia, Canada, the US, and Japan there are also many, many, many skaters from non-traditional skating countries who have done well in the past and are doing well now.
    "The practice of sport is a human right. Every individual must have the possibility of practicing sport, without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play." –Olympic Charter

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by quiqie View Post
    http://rsport.ru/interview/20130328/653582547.html

    if Ten was a Canadian, he would get 20-30 points more.


    Oh, that's a good one! Thank you, Oleg Kimovich, for brightening my day.

  8. #28
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    I don't think holding a different opinion makes me either in denial or defensive. The gist of the 'powerful federation' argument is that if you have it you can affect results. The powerful federation argument doesn't care about little errors by the skaters. Otherwise it collapses under the weight of it's own expectations. Canadian skaters have done well under CoP because they have solid technical training. But we've also been extremely fortunate to have high calibre quality skaters in V&M and Chan. They come around once in a generation.

  9. #29
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    Thanks so much for the translation Quiqie. I have always had such a crush on Oleg and can never get enough of his insightful and honest interviews even if his opinions are not always politically correct or mainstream.

    His statement that if Ten was a Canadian then he would have had 20-30 points more is ludicrous so I don't agree with him on that one. His opinions on the current Russian pairs teams are accurate in my opinion plus his comment on Maxim provided some insight as to why the two didn't get along well.

    With respect to his Italian pairs team, I think Oleg has his work cut out for him. Good luck to him.

  10. #30
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    They have problems with the second mark - skating skills, interpretation, and other things. But it all can come with practice - skating and, shall we say, the work of the Federation. Canadian Federation is working well, so I think, next year there may be changes.
    Skate Canada should have politikked for D/R more vigorously in London to make the judges forget they have some issues on the second mark and help them win the silver medal there, the more so as S/S left the door open to a higher D/R placement. But with D/R failing to take advantage of a messy LP skate from Savchenko/Szolkowy at Worlds, I am not sure there's enough time left until Sochi for the Canadian Federation to convince the judges that a clean pair of D/R is more valuable than a flawed pair of S/S.

    But I know Maxim, he says one thing today, tomorrow will say another, and it will sound just as convincing.
    Trankov should be a politician or a lawyer.

  11. #31
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    Re politics factor, it’s a question of “Who’s on first?” In that Abbott and Costello famous comedy routine, there’s lots of purposeful confusion of semantics that is ultimately and intentionally laughable. Politics exists inevitably as a fact of life that can not be exactly measured or quantified or uncovered (aside from toe-tapping scandal and French judge caving). Sure there will always be disagreement and debate among fans, as well as exaggeration for and against varying points of view. To further the confusion, life is an illusion, meaningful figure skating is a figment of the imagination, and IJS judging is often either a crime or a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    He probably see D&R as a threat and decided to hit them down before they truly become a threat.
    ...
    I doubt Vasiliev sees D/R as a threat! They are wonderful and epitomize the driving spirit of what figure skating is or should be all about in my estimation, but D/R obviously must continue working on their component aspects. They’re doing fine and working hard, and deserve their success. However, I feel it’s much more likely that Vasiliev senses the real threat may yet still come from Savchenko/ Szolkowy. IMO, Vasiliev is driving home the point that V/T are not only untouchable (which was helped somewhat by S/S physical problems and lack of strong programs this season), but also that V/T will not lose as favored Russian team skating while Russian in Sochi, Russia.

    I like V/T, but I think they need to challenge themselves more. They were very good at Euros and okay at Worlds, but had some sloppy competitions early in the season, yet still won. I don’t think their programs were great this season, just adequate. They obviously have beautiful lines, but that’s easy for them. They don’t yet have a unique identity as a team, nor have they brought anything especially exciting to the ice, other than their beauty, potential and political backing. Hopefully, V/T will find programs and performances worthy of greatness, and something with which to challenge themselves, since they apparently have no worthy challengers according to Vasiliev.

    Perhaps S/S’s Hail Mary throw 3-axel (even two-footed) in the last seconds of their fp in London not only sent a message, but will serve as a good omen for them coming back more fit and strong next season. If nothing else it might be an indication that S/S and S have no intention of going down without a fight. Of course for their Swan Song, S/S with the help of S must have kickin’ programs next season, along with good health and a huge measure of good luck. The fact that they’re 4-time World champions holds little sway. But in London, Ontario, maybe it was just enough to give them the edge for the silver medal, despite the crowd's nasty boos.

  12. #32
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    I don´t think the "powerful" federations matter that much (anymore)..., just thinking of Yu-Na Kim and some other skaters. The skater´s own performances matter and the reputation he/she is getting gradually. And now Ten would have won the competition if he had not doubled a triple jump. If one´s reputation is not high, one needs to skate a really perfect performance.

  13. #33

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    With Yu-Na the power Federation doesn't matter as much because with her jump talent, the judges can't do anything else; they have to make her win. But in discipline where the results can be much closer, such as dance or men, the power federation can make all the difference.

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