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  1. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    I didn't say they were dumber than pigs. The expression is "Never try to teach a pig to sing. You'll just frustrate yourself and it annoys the pig." So I guess I did compare them to pigs. But pigs are very smart animals. Plus... BACON!

    (Seriously, you've never heard of that expression? It's like a stitch in time or the early bird catches the worm.)

    And originally you were saying the aboriginals and the country of Australia had veto power. That's nonsense. Only someone with standing in the ISU can complain about rule violations and there are very specific ways to make very specific complaints with very specific consequences.

    No would would have been able to stop them from dancing it, in fact. The most that could have been done would be to protest their score and try to get the judges to give them a deduction or disqualify them for not following the rules. The deduction might have happened but the disqualification never would have IMO. And you'd have to find a NGB willing to make the complaint which means they'd have no skaters in that fight who had any dances with any questionable origins. There were actually plenty of dances of questionable authenticity and I think, in the end, no NGB cared enough to open that can of worms.
    I think I have heard the pig thing but don't like it at all. The other two you mention arent offensive.

    Because they said the dance was australian they could have absolutely went to the isu and said this dance is not Australian and offensive and everyone here hates it and should be stopped because it's racist! Sure they could have won the dance was extremely infamous and damaging.

    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Are you honestly suggesting that

    a) The little Australian federation could have taken on the big, powerful Russian federation and won?

    and

    b) that the little Australian federation has the time/money/resources to spend challenging such a thing?
    A- yes because the dance was infamous
    B- im sure they had the time if not the money or resources but from December to February 22 surely there could have been a fundraiser from aboriginals and all the opponents worldwide to he dance - and opposition was worldwide!

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Which rules? ISU rules for the OD?

    http://isu.sportcentric.net/db/isu_f...omms.php?all=1

    See pages 3 and 4 of ISU communication 1567, Ice Dance requirements for 2009_10

    There's nothing there to suggest that a dance that is deemed insufficiently authentic would be stopped, disqualified, or prohibited from being performed.

    The only passages that might be applicable are

    "there must be a consistent theme based on a specific country or region"

    "It is recommended that couples should use their own traditional folk or country music and dances"

    "The incorrect selection for the music/dances chosen must be penalized"

    The type of penalty is not specified in this communication, but from what we know of ISU rules and practices in the past, it's clear that they mean it should be penalized with lower program component scores.



    This document also states that "The folk/country dance character and style must be translated to the ice by flow and use of edges."

    Because off-ice dances almost never rely on flow and use of edges, it is impossible for the translation to the ice to be 100% authentic. The upper body and free leg shapes, rhythms, music, costumes, could match the source material exactly, but the actual steps would necessarily be different.

    So determining authenticity would be a matter of degree, not a yes/no decision.


    I can only see two possible mechanisms by which Domnina/Shabalin could have been prevented from performing this dance in Vancouver.

    1) If enough complaints had been made early in the season, after the first time the dance was performed, to convince judging panels at Europeans or other midseason events to give them very low marks in the components where authenticity would be a consideration, and if the judges had explained why they gave such low marks, D/S might have decided on their own that they needed to rethink their approach if they wanted to win.

    But they skipped the fall competitions that season, so there wasn't enough time for the judges to be educated about aboriginal dance to mark them down at Europeans, and even if they had, D/S would hardly have had time to create a completely new OD in time for the Olympics.

    2) If there were laws against any specific action that the skaters performed on the ice in the location where they were going be performing, they could be arrested, or threatened with arrest beforehand.

    But since that is not the case, there is no way the team could have been to forced not to perform this dance. Bad taste is not illegal.
    The rule that states it must refelect a county or region would seem to have been best to try to ban it. Every aboriginal media person was saying it didn't. So with that the dance could have been stopped. Linichuk than in defense once that it didn't reflect australia at all! But then backtracked as It really made the dance vulnerable to dq.

  2. #222

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    The ISU has NO mechanism to "ban" or disqualify a program because of the choice of music or program theme.

    Neither does the IOC.

    Even rule violations like including illegal elements or illegal costumes just get deductions, not disqualification.

    The only way a performance could be banned would be if it violated local laws in the location where it was to be performed.

    Unless something they were doing on the ice was against the laws of British Columbia, there was no way they could have been legally prevented from performing it in Vancouver.

    If it was against the law in any part of Australia, they could have been prevented from performing it in Australia. But because they were not scheduled to compete in Australia that year anyway, it's a moot point.

    All that could happen under ISU rules would be that they would earn lower program component scores because of the lack of authenticity.

    Audiences would still have been offended.

    Any other penalty is just fantasizing what you would like to have seen happen, not anything that possibly could have happened under any existing rules of sport.

  3. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post

    The only way a performance could be banned would be if it violated local laws in the location where it was to be performed.

    Unless something they were doing on the ice was against the laws of British Columbia, there was no way they could have been legally prevented from performing it in Vancouver.
    At the Vancouver Olympics, the IOC was allowed to go ahead with a men-only event (ski jumping) despite the fact that the women's side of the sport had been developed enough to qualify for inclusion in the Olympic program. There was a court case about it, started by some of the female ski jumpers, arguing that the IOC was violating federal and provincial human rights law by discriminating on the basis of sex. They lost even though the judge agreed that there was discrimination, because (per Wikipedia) "the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms does not apply to VANOC".

    So even when something in the Olympics is against local law, it can still go ahead.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    I think I have heard the pig thing but don't like it at all. The other two you mention arent offensive.
    You are free not to like it but I love it because I have this image in my head of a very annoyed pig thinking "dumb f*ck humans, what is it with them trying to teach animals stupid tricks" and refusing to sing even though he's perfectly capable of it.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    A- yes because the dance was infamous
    B- im sure they had the time if not the money or resources but from December to February 22 surely there could have been a fundraiser from aboriginals and all the opponents worldwide to he dance - and opposition was worldwide!
    Fundraiser from aboriginals and a worldwide opposition? It was only an original dance - not global warming or an escalation in nuclear weapons!

    Surely for drastic action to be taken, at least the act must be deliberate. D/S's OD may have been ignorant and tasteless, but you don't believe they actually chose the Olympics at which they were medal contenders to deliberately give a racist message!


    The rule that states it must refelect a county or region would seem to have been best to try to ban it. Every aboriginal media person was saying it didn't.
    That would open the door for almost all folk ODs to be banned.

  6. #226
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    Maybe I can only comment on the Yankee Polka?
    How about those white people who were actually blue from Kentucky? Than should work. Though I wager they get mighty pissed when people call them white people and try to appropriate their stuff.

    Kudos to whoever posted the Olga Markova link a few pages ago. She may be inappropriate and likely drunk, but damnit, she's going to go down to Egypt land and tell old Pharoah to let her people go. In a boa and red lipstick. And I totally buy it.

    I was offended by that aboriginal program because it was so excruciatingly embarrassing to watch.

  7. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    B- im sure they had the time if not the money or resources but from December to February 22 surely there could have been a fundraiser from aboriginals and all the opponents worldwide to he dance - and opposition was worldwide!
    Spat my coffee all over the keyboard. Thanks.
    I guess the hard thing for a lot of people to accept is why God would allow me to go running through their yards, yelling and spinning around.


  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    but in the midst of all that I did think there were one or two things rainbowkisses posted where she seemed to have stepped out of her troll role for a moment that I found worth considering. I'm certainly not demanding that anyone else need feel that way.
    Of course you aren't. But I do admire and look up to you so I was mostly just trying to figure out if you felt I was being in any way ignorant in my views or if you felt I had ignored something she had said that you felt did make me come across that way. That's all

  9. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    That would open the door for almost all folk ODs to be banned.
    Not necessarily. Most of the top ice dancers had ODs that reflected some country's culture or folk dance. Virture/Moir were doing Spanish Flamenco, Davis/White Indian folk dancing (I'm not sure if it's really Bollywood since at the time someone linked a video to an Indian candle dance that used similar moves to D/W), Belbin/Agosto were doing a Moldavian folk, the Kerrs and Pechelat/Bourzat were doing American country, Delobel/Schoenfelder did French can-can, etc.

    What caseyedwards was talking about was the time after the Dom/Shab's dance experienced negative feedback for being inauthentic and offensive, Linichuck made a defense that the choreography and interpretation wasn't representing any culture or region, but that she invented some sort of prehistoric people doing the dance that Dom/Shabs were doing in the OD. The rule doesn't seem to talk about the merits of authenticity of a dance team's portrayal, but that they had to at least represent some culture or region in their folk dances. I think it's moot anyway because it's obvious what the original concept was based on, no matter how Linichuck tried to spin it after-the-fact.

  10. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopysnake View Post
    snoopysnake is qualified to critique anyone who skates to:
    - Dirty Water by The Standells
    - Tessie by The Dropkick Murphys
    - Sweet Caroline by Neil Diamond
    - Snoopy and the Red Baron by The Royal Guardsmen
    - Linus and Lucy by Vince Guaraldi

    and any song with "snake" in the title or lyrics, as well as Evan Lysacek's snakes costume.
    And here I did so hope someone would ice dance some time to the Dropkick Murphys for US Nationals next year - perhaps Tessie combined with I'm Shipping Up to Boston.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post

    2) If there were laws against any specific action that the skaters performed on the ice in the location where they were going be performing, they could be arrested, or threatened with arrest beforehand.

    But since that is not the case, there is no way the team could have been to forced not to perform this dance. Bad taste is not illegal.
    AFAIR, there was an effective protest, that stopped at least part of the cultural appropriation of DomShabs, the part that was actually plagiarism:

    http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archi...ng%20Notes.htm

    In their official ISU bio, Domnina & Shabalin list their music merely as "Aboriginal Dance, arranged by Alexander Goldstein". But the vocal artiste, Sheila Chandra, a UK pop star of South Indian descent, has charged that she hasn’t received royalties for their use of her music.
    As a result, DomShabs replaced the section of their music which was by Chandra with something put together by Alexander Goldstein. It was kind of hard to tell the difference though :

    I just wish they had gotten rid of the pony tail pulling part.

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Not necessarily. Most of the top ice dancers had ODs that reflected some country's culture or folk dance. Virture/Moir were doing Spanish Flamenco, Davis/White Indian folk dancing (I'm not sure if it's really Bollywood since at the time someone linked a video to an Indian candle dance that used similar moves to D/W), Belbin/Agosto were doing a Moldavian folk, the Kerrs and Pechelat/Bourzat were doing American country, Delobel/Schoenfelder did French can-can, etc.
    Delobel and Schoenfelder with french can-can seems right to me...

  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    I just wish they had gotten rid of the pony tail pulling part.
    To me, this was probably the WORST part of the dance. The costumes a pretty close second.

  13. #233
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    It used to be the case that if your ice dance programmes weren't inappropriate, you were doing something wrong.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    It used to be the case that if your ice dance programmes weren't inappropriate, you were doing something wrong.
    I remember that time too

  15. #235
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    So this weekend I had all the lovely Indian dishes I mentioned and made my own mango lassi, all thanks to this thread. Make your troll work for you, people!
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  16. #236

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    That sounds like way too much work, IceAlisa. There are restaurants for that!

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    That sounds like way too much work, IceAlisa. There are restaurants for that!
    I only made the mango lassi myself--super easy. Everything else was delivery.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  18. #238

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    A little commentary by the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band on cultural appropriation:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw-TVrR8wZc
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    I spoke with two friends from India today (one from Mumbai and the other from Bangalore, which are two distinct, separate parts of the country) and I asked them about this very issue of whether a foreign woman wearing a sari and/or bindi would be offensive to their culture.

    After I asked the question, both of the them gave me a solid, quick "NO". In fact, people in India would love it when women from other cultures wear the bindi and/sari. They don't know of anyone who would find this offensive, but if there are, they are a small minority of people.

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    I do remember that the Jewish communtity protested that Hendryk Schamberger was wearing tefilin (sp?) on his arm - especially coming from a German, many thought it extrmly rude. But he said later that he was unaware about the tradidion, just wore it to look authentic. Of course he apologized.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twC7qV5uTVM

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