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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    Quote from the article:



    The expert opinions! We all know how much Johnny knows about IJS. Todd Eldredge was a 6.0 skater. I doubt he understand much about this system. Even Kurt Browning who is constently involving in current skating TV commentary admited that after practicing his "singing in the rain" program for his Pro-Am competition last year, he now understood more about the judging system and appreciated and admired more for what the current skaters do on ice.
    Are you implying that the posters on this chatboard, including yourself, know more than those who competed at world level? I don't care what system they competed under; they do know FS, and whether they like the IJS or not, I value their opinions.

    How many times have YOU competed under IJS at senior world level (or even junior world level)?

    What the emotions about this decision are saying is that figure skating judging needs to be fixed. May be it's the rules, may be it's the judging, but many people- fans and skaters alike- are screaming to make it better. What's wrong with it? I don't agree with the petition, and I don't agree with changing the results of a competition (unless an athlete fails drug tests), but there is a strong need for the ISU to look into the issues involved and make the system better.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Are you implying that the posters on this chatboard, including yourself, know more than those who competed at world level? I don't care what system they competed under; they do know FS, and whether they like the IJS or not, I value their opinions.

    How many times have YOU competed under IJS at senior world level (or even junior world level)?

    What the emotions about this decision are saying is that figure skating judging needs to be fixed. May be it's the rules, may be it's the judging, but many people- fans and skaters alike- are screaming to make it better. What's wrong with it? I don't agree with the petition, and I don't agree with changing the results of a competition (unless an athlete fails drug tests), but there is a strong need for the ISU to look into the issues involved and make the system better.
    I'm implying that some expertized skating fans, not including me, on this chatboard, yes, who post on this chatboard, know more about this system than those said skaters.

  3. #123

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    To be fair, the guy who was the commentator during the Europeans and worlds at British Eurosport also used to compete at senior level at worlds and his knowledge is a bit patchy. The things he says...calling Mao Asada 'Maya Asada' (I think she has been around long enough that he could remember her name, or at least read it properly). "The rumour says that she has triple axel". Rumour!!!! and other pearls...

  4. #124

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    But do they know figure skating better? I don't think their reactions really stem from a serious COP analysis of whether Ten should have won, but what they as figure skaters think should have won based on what they value in the sport.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 03-27-2013 at 10:31 PM.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    "The rumour says that she has triple axel". Rumour!!!! and other pearls...
    Well, it was MIA from Mao's routines for 2 entire seasons (2011 & 2012) and she didn't start landing it again this season until 4CC, one month before Worlds.

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    But do they know figure skating better? I don't think their reactions really stem from a serious COP analysis of what Ten should have won, but what they as figure skaters and what they value in the sport think should have won.
    Which is completely valid, in the midst of everyone expressing their opinions about the system.

    Essentially, isn't that what we all do?
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  7. #127
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    Who is Monica Friedlander? She is showing her ignorance by comparing this situation with the Salt Lake City Olympics judging scandal. And since when is the outcome of any sport based on audience preference?
    There are some valid points to be made about the allotment of points for various elements, but frankly, every time someone decides that it justifies making personal attacks on Patrick Chan, it only serves to diminish their credibility.

  8. #128

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    If Friedlander had any last bits of credibility as a journalist, she just destroyed them with this article.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/peti...ive-gold-medal

    Not only is the article ridiculous, but she leaves out one very important piece of information about the petition, i.e. that she started it.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    If Friedlander had any last bits of credibility as a journalist, she just destroyed them with this article.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/peti...ive-gold-medal

    Not only is the article ridiculous, but she leaves out one very important piece of information about the petition, i.e. that she started it.
    The picture she chose of Chan is from what year? Certainly not from the last three WORLD championships. Is it from 2010Worlds when he came second overall to Takahashi?

  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarie View Post
    Good one
    Oh really? You guys speak like a 3axel-3toe and another 3axel mean nothing.

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    Quote from the article:



    The expert opinions! We all know how much Johnny knows about IJS. Todd Eldredge was a 6.0 skater. I doubt he understands much about this system. Even Kurt Browning who is constantly involving in current skating TV commentating admited that after practicing his "singing in the rain" program for his Pro-Am competition last year, he now understood more about the judging system and appreciated and admired more for what the current skaters do on ice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    I'm implying that some expertized skating fans, not including me, on this chatboard, yes, who post on this chatboard, know more about this system than those said skaters.
    Your making a lot of assumptions. First of all, how much do you know that Johnny Weir and Todd Eldridge know. Todd Eldridge is currently a coach so how do you he's clueless about the system. Johnny's competed under IJS for years. Maybe he doesn't do everything you think he should do under IJS, but can you assume he knows nothing about it.

    One thing Todd and Johnny and some of the others know that you are very much ignoring, is how hard it is to actually go out there and compete. They also know quite a lot about skating. How difficult is to go out there and do a hard program, with choreography. How hard it to land a triple axel or a quad in competition.

    I would also think most skaters who have done it all their lives have a pretty good understanding of basic skating skills. So I think their opinion about the fact that maybe skaters getting multitude of points for falling over, bares a little weight. Seeing as these people may not like the system, but they certainly understand the concept of skating better than 99.9 if not 100 percent of those of us here on the board.

    To just dismiss people who have spent their entire lives on figure skating as just not knowing the system, so not having a valid opinion is ridiculous. Especially since skating came before the system.

    Besides this system is subjective anyways. Some people DO get docked if they fall a lot, some don't. Its awfully subjective to me. But I think its awfully ridiculous to dismiss people who have reached the highest levels in this sport (Todd's a world champion, and Johnny a world medalist).

    As people who have actually skated these folks understand more than like in real terms way more than I suspect a lot of the experts your talking about the actual difficult of all programs in question.

    Even Plushenko who people suggest knows nothing, well somebody who understood "nothing" wouldn't make comments about how he and Joubert lack transitions. That suggests in reality Plushenko knows full well (and was quite stupid to say what he said).
    The fact that you have high level skaters stating things about the way folks can win with multitude of mistakes, should mean something. Its not just casual fans are complaining.. The "system" is new invention and should exist to serve the sport. Not to change the sport fundamentally to where even top level skaters are saying they don't want to watch.

  12. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Your making a lot of assumptions. First of all, how much do you know that Johnny Weir and Todd Eldridge know. Todd Eldredge is currently a coach so how do you he's clueless about the system. Johnny's competed under IJS for years. Maybe he doesn't do everything you think he should do under IJS, but can you assume he knows nothing about it.

    One thing Todd and Johnny and some of the others know that you are very much ignoring, is how hard it is to actually go out there and compete. They also know quite a lot about skating. How difficult is to go out there and do a hard program, with choreography. How hard it to land a triple axel or a quad in competition.

    I would also think most skaters who have done it all their lives have a pretty good understanding of basic skating skills. So I think their opinion about the fact that maybe skaters getting multitude of points for falling over, bares a little weight. Seeing as these people may not like the system, but they certainly understand the concept of skating better than 99.9 if not 100 percent of those of us here on the board.

    To just dismiss people who have spent their entire lives on figure skating as just not knowing the system, so not having a valid opinion is ridiculous. Especially since skating came before the system.

    Besides this system is subjective anyways. Some people DO get docked if they fall a lot, some don't. Its awfully subjective to me. But I think its awfully ridiculous to dismiss people who have reached the highest levels in this sport (Todd's a world champion, and Johnny a world medalist).

    As people who have actually skated these folks understand more than like in real terms way more than I suspect a lot of the experts your talking about the actual difficult of all programs in question.

    Even Plushenko who people suggest knows nothing, well somebody who understood "nothing" wouldn't make comments about how he and Joubert lack transitions. That suggests in reality Plushenko knows full well (and was quite stupid to say what he said).
    The fact that you have high level skaters stating things about the way folks can win with multitude of mistakes, should mean something. Its not just casual fans are complaining.. The "system" is new invention and should exist to serve the sport. Not to change the sport fundamentally to where even top level skaters are saying they don't want to watch.

    The bolded portion represents my thoughts exactly. A lot of posters here are making assumptions about how much Eldredge and Weir (and others) know about COP. Did they really give them a test to check their knowledge? Just because they competed under 6.0 and/or said at some point that they did not like the IJS (I don't particularly like it either, although there are some things about it that I like), some posters are assuming that they don't know the new system or don't understand it. The truth is the posters don't know whether or not these high level skaters know the system, but they are so eager to criticize them, for the simple reason their opinion is different.

    I pretty much agree with the rest of the post. I have great respect for skaters that have been competing at the highest level. I value their opinion over those who are criticizing from the sidelines. I may not always agree with what they say, but they certainly know and understand FS better than a lot of people. I would not just dismiss them.

  13. #133

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    bek and Vash01, I absolutely agree.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  14. #134

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    Just curious: is there a penalty for not doing a certain number of jump elements? Just for fun, I did a little calculation of my own.

    Patrick completed the following jumps correctly: 4T-3T, 4T, 3Lp, 2Lz-2T and 2A. Based on his scores, if he had ONLY done these jumps, along with all his other spins, footwork elements and the same PCS scores, his LP would have scored 154.21. Mind you, this means 5 jump elements (rather than 9) and no 3Ax, 3Lz, 3F or 3S.

    This hypothetical score, combined with his SP score, would have scored 252.58, giving him a placement of 2nd overall. (And with no errors in the program, his PCS would have been higher, no?) Bronze medalist Javier Fernandez (who completed 8 jump elements correctly in the LP) had a total score was 249.06.

    Carry on.
    Last edited by skateboy; 03-28-2013 at 06:49 AM.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis View Post
    I signed the petition. I don't agree with all of it, and I don't think it will do a lick of good. That said, I have nothing left to lose. I've lost all interest in skating in its current form. I watched the ladies free at last year's Worlds, and the men's and ladies' free at this year's Worlds only because of the friends I've made through skating. World Pros and Ice Wars had more legitimacy. With the team competition and vocal music on the way, I'm sure ISU skating will be there soon enough.

    I don't think Patrick Chan's win is an isolated case by any means, but it is a scandal that can propel change -- if people want it to. But maybe people either don't care or have given up, and the fans who defend the system are content with watching once-a-year on Latvian TV. That's fine. But good for Monica Friedlander and the people who signed this petition for still caring. I'll stand with you.

    Until then, I'll lurk around here waiting for the next Jill Trenary or Laetitia Hubert thread.
    I am sorry to hear that, Louis. You have been a knowledgeable fan whom I look up to and it is sad to hear you losing interest in the sport. Here's hoping whoever you still enjoy can skate well at Sochi

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    The bolded portion represents my thoughts exactly. A lot of posters here are making assumptions about how much Eldredge and Weir (and others) know about COP. Did they really give them a test to check their knowledge? Just because they competed under 6.0 and/or said at some point that they did not like the IJS (I don't particularly like it either, although there are some things about it that I like), some posters are assuming that they don't know the new system or don't understand it. The truth is the posters don't know whether or not these high level skaters know the system, but they are so eager to criticize them, for the simple reason their opinion is different.

    I pretty much agree with the rest of the post. I have great respect for skaters that have been competing at the highest level. I value their opinion over those who are criticizing from the sidelines. I may not always agree with what they say, but they certainly know and understand FS better than a lot of people. I would not just dismiss them.
    I totally agree with you that we shouldn't make any assumptions on how much a skater knows about current system but as far as Johnny goes, it's really hard for me to take his opinion of scores and results seriously so long as he himself admits to his lack of understanding of the CoP.

    For example when I look at my marks I don't understand what they mean. And, frankly, I'm not even trying to find out. I always tried to express myself, show the emotions. Fortunately my coaches understand the rules. They tell me what to do, provoke me all the time to make the programme harder, for example to put a 3A in the 2nd part of the programme.
    You can read the full interview here, it's dated October 2012.

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...ike-Pluschenko

  17. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    I totally agree with you that we shouldn't make any assumptions on how much a skater knows about current system but as far as Johnny goes, it's really hard for me to take his opinion of scores and results seriously so long as he himself admits to his lack of understanding of the CoP.



    You can read the full interview here, it's dated October 2012.

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...ike-Pluschenko
    Even if Johnny doesn't "know the system" in and out. He still knows how difficult it is to do lets say a level four spin, and how difficult the new footwork is etc. He may know instinctively more than he and others think.

  18. #138
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    The problem is in this situation neither Plushenko, Eldredge, or Weir, or any other elite figure skaters / journalists / writers / etc. bothered to point out what score was unjustified and quickly jumped on the bandwagon that Chan wuzgifted. On the other hand we see blog posts and forum posts analyze the PCS and why Chan's score wasn't out of line in the current system.

    Just because they been through the training and competing at the highest level doesn't mean their crying automatically becomes more valid if they can't back up their claims.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Just curious: is there a penalty for not doing a certain number of jump elements? Just for fun, I did a little calculation of my own.
    In the short program, elements are required, but I'm not sure if there is an actual deduction for missing one.

    In the free, the number of jumps allowed is a maximum. Florent Amodio for instance has been doing fewer than the allowed passes recently.

  20. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Well, it was MIA from Mao's routines for 2 entire seasons (2011 & 2012) and she didn't start landing it again this season until 4CC, one month before Worlds.
    Maybe, but she has been landing it on and off for the last 10 years, since the age of 12, so I think we can safely say that it is not a rumour that she has triple Axel. She did land three triple Axels in the last Olympic games. I would understand if she landed it just a few times in her career, but I think she landed it enough times that it isn't really a rumour that she has it.

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