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  1. #101
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    VarBar, those are all excellent questions to which I don't have the answers.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Hmm, I didn't take the 5-point differential on PC as an attempt of the judges to give Chan the gold no matter what. Even if the judges had marked Chan down by a couple of points or had marked Takahashi up by a couple of points, I suppose Chan would still have won the competition due to a 4 points lead after the short program and I don't think that a win by just one point is any less valuable than a win by ten points. Denis being within 3 points of Chan, could it be explained by that Chan fell two times in 2013 but just one time in 2012? But I know it's Chan's GOEs and Chan's PC marks that get scrutinized and questioned, has anyone ever wondered how Takahashi ended up with a positive GOE for a quad he landed on two feet at last season's Worlds? Or how he could get the highest PC mark in the free skate in Vancouver for a performance with multiple negative GOEs and a fall on top of it? Can a skater who falls beat a skater who doesn't fall or should we believe Johnny Weir that he was robbed off the bronze medal in 2010? I feel whoever would dare ask those questions would be verbally attacked by an angry mob calling them trolls, idiots and retards.
    This is an excellent example of how only certain results are scrutinized based on the skater rather than even the actual result itself.

    In the previous Olympic cycle (pre-2010), people on this board were bemoaning as to why Brian Joubert consistently received the highest (or among the highest) component scores (sometimes outscoring Lambiel and Takahashi). The target always seems to change (and will eventually change to somebody else in the next Olympic cycle, I presume).

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    Ten did not skate to an equally difficult freeskate choreography as Chan did, and also Chan had a quad-triple combination plus a quad, Ten only a quad. Ten deserved to win the freeskate, which he did. He did not deserve to win the whole competition, although the result came very close and Ten would have won it by doing a liiiittle bit more.
    Quote Originally Posted by clarie View Post
    Good one

    Yes Clarie and Jaana . And I think what Patrick said was that Denis had doubled a jump that if he had tripled, he would have won. I don't recall him saying that Denis made as many mistakes. Either way, the issue here is IJS and not Patrick Chan. Patrick is a 22 year old man living within the insular world of elite figure skating. Could he be a smidgen more diplomatic? Perhaps. However, he is being attacked 2 years running and he doesn't have the media experience necessary to defend the attacks. Patrick speaks what he is honestly thinking and he is not hateful or mean. THIS IS NOT HIS FAULT. Judgejudy27 clearly loathes Patrick himself and in this context, that is unfair. I don't think it is a good thing to attack or mock any skater. Clearly we all here are invested in this sport in some way and so the issues become personal, but healthy and respectful dialogue, while difficult, is best. I truly hope the skaters don't come here and see the awful things said about some of them. It would be so demoralizing for them when they work so hard for their passion and to provide us with ours. Oh well, perhaps I am living in a dream world. LOL. I wish I could give Patrick a big hug because this has to be a tough time for him. On a happy note, I tweeted Denis to congratulate him on his amazing skates and he "favourited" my tweet! What a cutie pie and brilliant skater. Ok, I shall be quiet now
    Last edited by kittysk8ts; 03-26-2013 at 11:01 PM. Reason: Forgot a quote

  4. #104

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    Show me a topic where Chan is being discussed and I can assure you that JJ is spewing her hate for Patrick in multiple posts -- and usually saying the same thing.

    You know what they say is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again yet expecting different results. If I apply such to JJ and her posts about Patrick not deserving to win in spite of the face that he won anyway, I think the conclusion is clear. ;-) JJ is insane for Patrick. :-)

    Back to topic. I would not consider signing the petition. I am still thrilled to bits for Denis. I have enjoyed watching him for years, just not always his results. So glad he could skate two good programs. As was said earlier, let's see how well young Mr Ten skates now that his name is "up there" amongst those to watch for podium picks.
    Crazy about sports!

  5. #105
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    One of the things I like best about Patrick Chan is that he skates programs that are a challenge to himself, that only on his good/best days that he can skate cleanly. Because he could very easily dumb down his programs in such a way that he could skate them cleanly every time but unlike so many top skaters he continues to challenge himself. I don't mind when he falters because it moves me to tears when he soars and that is so much better then a bunch of mediocre glop. In pushing himself he pushes all of the men to get better and that is a great thing.
    Last edited by JanetB; 03-27-2013 at 05:59 PM. Reason: spelling
    I want to thank you Lord for being with me so far this day. With your help, I have not been inpatient, lost my temper been grumpy or envious of anyone. But I will be getting out of bed in a minute and I think I will really need your help then. Amen

  6. #106
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    Award a Gold Medal to Denis Ten for his Performance at the 2013 World Figure Sk

    Quote Originally Posted by JanetB View Post
    One of the things I like best about Patrick Chan is that he skates programs that are a challenge to himself, that only on his good/best days that he can skate cleanly. Because he could very easily dumb down his programs in such a way that he could skate them cleanly every time but unlike so many top skaters he continues to challenge himself. I don't mind when he falters because it moves me to tears when he sours and that is so much better then a bunch of mediocre glop. In pushing himself he pushes all of the men to get better and that is a great thing.
    JanetB I'm hoping you meant Soars instead of Sours lol.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    If you aren't able to notice that Kostner has the best skating skills in the world, skates to the music very well and has the most complex programs (honestly the gap between her and the other Ladiezzz in that regard is just huge), then you should either get your eyesight tested or go get a clue.
    Ziggy, I love ya!

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by kittysk8ts View Post
    However, he is being attacked 2 years running and he doesn't have the media experience necessary to defend the attacks.
    He has been world champion three times; six-time senior national champion, as well as novice and junior national championship; won several Grand Prix medals of different colours; *and* represented his country in a high-profile Olympic event in an Olympics held in his country. Because of all that, he has tons of media experience. I think any problems with what he says is how people interpret his remarks or how they are reported, not because he is naive about how to deal with the media.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  9. #109
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    This is a ridiculous approach to take and SO inconsiderate towards Denis Ten and his own feelings about his historic achievement. Has any of the signers read his message to the fans after the Worlds? Do people seriously think he'll want to be remembered as a second winner of the 2013 Worlds Championship after a controversial hoopla that ended with a petition that overruled the original results weeks after the whole thing was over?
    Now if it were the Kazakhstan Federation or his coaching staff starting the petition, that's a whole different story.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    That is because the 'many' are ignorant fools who should get shot. Honestly, this whole Worlds bullshit is turning me into a fascist.

    If you aren't able to notice that Kostner has the best skating skills in the world, skates to the music very well and has the most complex programs (honestly the gap between her and the other Ladiezzz in that regard is just huge), then you should either get your eyesight tested or go get a clue.
    Was her long really more complex than say Osmond's? I'm not saying Osmond is on her level skating skills wise (she's really really not), but curious here.

  11. #111
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    I am so happy all the reasonable folk joined the thread Rock on FSU!!! Facts and logic....not blind hatred.

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    I think there is pretty strong agreement that the PCS is not properly implemented by the judges. It seems to me that this is the kind of thing the ISU needs to be pressured on, rather than any specific result. Protesting a specific result tends to muddy all the issues in my estimation. I think the focus needs to be on remedying the perceived problems going forward.
    I agree with this, at least in part. The PCS is not implemented correctly by the judges but there is also a need to revise the rules when a controversial decision takes place. It also does not help when judges are not held accountable for the marks they have given; they can hide instead of letting everyone see how they marked the skater (the 6.0 system was good in that respect).

    It will be tough to have unambiguous rules in FS because of the nature of this sport, but it is important for the ISU to acknowledge there is a problem and try to fix it instead of pushing it under the rug. I don't believe in changing results of a game/competition after it's over, but I am open to changing rules for future competitions. That's what the petition needs to be for, and not for a second gold.

  13. #113
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    The petition may be misguided, but it clearly is tapping into feelings that many people have regarding the results which are not simply a matter of some people being upset that a skater they wanted and expected to win, didn't win. Also, I don't think it's about disrespecting Patrick Chan. IMO, Patrick is as victimized by faulty judging and faulty scoring system as much as all the skaters.

    In any case, no matter how many people sign a petition like this, the result is not going to be changed. I suspect the people who drafted the petition may or may not have in mind the ultimate objective of Ten being awarded the gold medal, since that is highly unlikely to happen. Perhaps it is more about tapping into the feeling many people seem to have that something is not right about the results of the men's competition and the scoring system in particular. Again, no rap on Patrick personally, but if a blind poll could be taken among all the current eligible skaters and former skaters as to whom they thought should have won on the basis of two fine performances, Denis would probably come out ahead. I think Denis is fine about taking silver, but figure skating on that night lost out big time.

    I noticed at least two familiar names on the petition: Timothy Goebel and Debi Thomas. There are probably many people who feel Denis deserved to win, but may disagree with putting together this type of petition, yet ended up signing anyway. Not necessarily because they think the results will be changed, but as a show of support for the possibility of meaningful change in the sport of figure skating. In any case, I think the results of the men's competition are somewhat more laughable than this petition. Again, this is re the judging, and not Patrick ... It's not about hating on Patrick. After all, Patrick apologized for a reason.

  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    The petition may be misguided, but it clearly is tapping into feelings that many people have regarding the results which are not simply a matter of some people being upset that a skater they wanted and expected to win, didn't win. Also, I don't think it's about disrespecting Patrick Chan. IMO, Patrick is as victimized by faulty judging and faulty scoring system as much as all the skaters.

    In any case, no matter how many people sign a petition like this, the result is not going to be changed. I suspect the people who drafted the petition may or may not have in mind the ultimate objective of Ten being awarded the gold medal, since that is highly unlikely to happen. Perhaps it is more about tapping into the feeling many people seem to have that something is not right about the results of the men's competition and the scoring system in particular. Again, no rap on Patrick personally, but if a blind poll could be taken among all the current eligible skaters and former skaters as to whom they thought should have won on the basis of two fine performances, Denis would probably come out ahead. I think Denis is fine about taking silver, but figure skating on that night lost out big time.

    I noticed at least two familiar names on the petition: Timothy Goebel and Debi Thomas. There are probably many people who feel Denis deserved to win, but may disagree with putting together this type of petition, yet ended up signing anyway. Not necessarily because they think the results will be changed, but as a show of support for the possibility of meaningful change in the sport of figure skating. In any case, I think the results of the men's competition are somewhat more laughable than this petition. Again, this is re the judging, and not Patrick ... It's not about hating on Patrick. After all, Patrick apologized for a reason.
    Very well said.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    If you think that by Olympics, If Gold goes clean with everything she will lose to a multi mistake Kostner, I think you're mistaken,
    All things considered .
    Oh, a multi mistake Carolina would certainly lose the segment to a clean Gracie - didn't Chan lose the FS segment to Denis? - but I would expect Kostner to score high on the program components though.

    If Jeremy Abbott, at Skate America last year, with two falls and a time violation deduction could beat on the PC mark a Konstantin Menshov with no falls and two clean quadruples by nearly ten points, maybe Carolina would be entitled to a few more points over Gracie for her components.

    Aren't the judges supposed to follow the same rules whether they judge Olympic Games or Grand Prix events?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    But maybe for you if Takahashi, Kozuka, Ten or even Hanyu or Fernandez ended up winning those competitions, They would've been lesser champions,

    It's not like there wouldn't be ANYONE of great skills stepping up
    Fernandez in the free skate at 2013 Euros scored 89+ on the program components as opposed to 82+ at the Grand Prix Final. Fernandez is a phenom to me because I don't know of any other skater who would have improved his/her PC mark by as much as seven points in a matter of just one month while skating the same program with the same technical content and pretty much the same execution of the elements, as indicated by his total elements score.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post

    Fernandez in the free skate at 2013 Euros scored 89+ on the program components as opposed to 82+ at the Grand Prix Final. Fernandez is a phenom to me because I don't know of any other skater who would have improved his/her PC mark by as much as seven points in a matter of just one month while skating the same program with the same technical content and pretty much the same execution of the elements, as indicated by his total elements score.
    Because he's Fernandez, not Patrick Chan. If he's Chan, I'm sure you'll find out something to justify his score. Say, Grand Prix Final and EC are two different competitions. And maybe his PCS before the EC weren't marked correctly.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milana View Post
    Because he's Fernandez, not Patrick Chan. If he's Chan, I'm sure you'll find out something to justify his score. Say, Grand Prix Final and EC are two different competitions. And maybe his PCS before the EC weren't marked correctly.
    I too thought Fernandez was a little bit undermarked on PCS at the Grand Prix Final. His FS performance was stronger than at Skate Canada the same season. But as you said, different competitions, different judging panels, so perhaps I shouldn't compare.

    If you are a Fernandez fan - btw, I like Fernandez - you surely remember his bad FS skate at 2012 NHK with two falls and some mistakes on other jumps. By contrast, Ross Miner skated his program cleanly at that competition, with a quad and two 3As - he did get an edge call but this mistake didn't disrupt the flow of the program. Did Fernandez lose the components mark to Miner? No, he did not.

    I wasn't justifying Chan's marks but trying to suggest that it might not be fair to pick on just the scores of the World Championships winner. That's all.

  18. #118
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    Denis Ten spoke diplomatically at a press conference today (March 27) in Astana, KAZ: http://bnews.kz/en/news/post/130473/

    March 26 article in an English language news website in Kazakhstan about the petition: http://en.tengrinews.kz/sport/US-jou...nis-Ten-18006/
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  19. #119
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    Quote from the article:

    The authors of the petition also cite the expert opinions about undeserved victory of Chan, including the statements of the Olympic champion Yevgeni Plushenko and famous American figure skaters Todd Eldredge and Johnny Weir.
    The expert opinions! We all know how much Johnny knows about IJS. Todd Eldredge was a 6.0 skater. I doubt he understands much about this system. Even Kurt Browning who is constantly involving in current skating TV commentating admited that after practicing his "singing in the rain" program for his Pro-Am competition last year, he now understood more about the judging system and appreciated and admired more for what the current skaters do on ice.
    Last edited by Eyre; 03-27-2013 at 08:22 PM.

  20. #120
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    Denis Ten is a class act. Hoping he continues this positive success, he's been a great skater to watch for years already.
    I am free of all prejudices. I hate everyone equally.~W. C. Fields

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