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  1. #301
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    Nobody thinks Ten deserved a gold and the poll inability to get enough votes to get him a 2nd gold is proof of that. You all need to just accept you are wrong and Ten is an overrated second rate skater who couldnt even beat a poor Chan since he isnt that good.

  2. #302

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    Quote Originally Posted by chanunderrated View Post
    Nobody thinks Ten deserved a gold and the poll inability to get enough votes to get him a 2nd gold is proof of that. You all need to just accept you are wrong and Ten is an overrated second rate skater who couldnt even beat a poor Chan since he isnt that good.
    Denis Ten has long been considered a promising talent - I remember being really impressed with him when I saw him live at 4CCs in Vancouver. I certainly don't think of him as overrated at all and thought he had the skate of the night. It's possible to think that without being totally outraged that Chan won.

    If anything, the judges indicated that they had under-rated Ten by the increase in his PCS in the LP. Carroll commented on that, it was as if the judges woke up and saw Ten for the skater he was in the SP, then acknowledged it in the LP.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by chanunderrated View Post
    Nobody thinks Ten deserved a gold and the poll inability to get enough votes to get him a 2nd gold is proof of that.
    I wasn't aware that fans got to vote for skating placements. But now that I know, I'm off to stuff the ballots for the Olympics. I'm from Chicago so I vote early and often.
    If you want to be creative, get out there and do it. It's not a waste of time" - Michael Giacchino, UP

  4. #304

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    If anything, the judges indicated that they had under-rated Ten by the increase in his PCS in the LP. Carroll commented on that, it was as if the judges woke up and saw Ten for the skater he was in the SP, then acknowledged it in the LP.
    Maybe it could be that his FS was just a better program than his SP and deserved better PCS because of what it offered. Sometimes that can also happen.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  5. #305
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    ^^ In this case, both programs were great and both told the inspirational story of The Artist. It was a unique idea to perform both sp and fp to the same movie score, and the concept worked beautifully. As a skating fan, I'm happy that Denis was able to finally perform both programs cleanly and to a high level of expressiveness at 2013 Worlds.

    In any case, though, I agree with Frank Carroll that Denis' sp performance was even a bit better overall than his fp. Seemingly, the only reason Denis' PCS were lower in the sp is the judges weren't rating Denis that highly (i.e., they did not expect him to perform that well). Once, Denis performed nearly as great and equally beautifully in the fp (as well as better than everyone else), the judges increased his PCS marks (which should have been equally high for his sp if the judges hadn't been prejudging and manipulating PCS).

  6. #306

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    ^^^ Where do you have the proof of that?
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  7. #307

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    It seems to me there are 3 possible general explanations for Ten's PCS being higher in the freeskate:

    1) he skated better in the freeskate, and both programs were marked correctly, according to the established PCS criteria, either objectively or in the honest albeit inevitably subjective opinions of the judges (depending whether you believe true objectivity in PCS scoring is even possible)

    2) judges undermarked Ten in the short program because they didn't expect him to perform well, didn't really appreciate the quality of what they were seeing, etc., and then they recalibrated their assessment of his skating in the freeskate and scored him at the level he really deserved

    or

    3) judges scored him correctly in the short program and then inflated the freeskate scores because they were so excited to see a clean program with quad that they got carried away emotionally or purposely manipulated his scores higher than what they honestly thought he deserved because they wanted him to win (the freeskate if not the whole shebang)

    If we believe that the short program was objectively better, then either 2) or 3) or both must be true.

    But we still have to ask whether subjective factors do figure into the scoring, and how. How much do expectations, skate order, emotional response to a good human interest story, etc., affect the judges' perceptions in similar ways that they affect fans'?

  8. #308
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    ^^ Yes, seems to me to be very reasonable general explanations/ speculations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    ^^^ Where do you have the proof of that?
    If you are referring to my second paragraph in post #305, as I said Aussie Willy, I was agreeing with Frank's observation, and I prefaced my personal belief/ speculation with "seemingly," just as you prefaced yours with "maybe." It's really not a matter of proving anything. This isn't a court of law, and figure skating is not rocket science. At least, not to my knowledge.

  9. #309

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    It seems to me there are 3 possible general explanations for Ten's PCS being higher in the freeskate:

    1) he skated better in the freeskate, and both programs were marked correctly, according to the established PCS criteria, either objectively or in the honest albeit inevitably subjective opinions of the judges (depending whether you believe true objectivity in PCS scoring is even possible)

    2) judges undermarked Ten in the short program because they didn't expect him to perform well, didn't really appreciate the quality of what they were seeing, etc., and then they recalibrated their assessment of his skating in the freeskate and scored him at the level he really deserved

    or

    3) judges scored him correctly in the short program and then inflated the freeskate scores because they were so excited to see a clean program with quad that they got carried away emotionally or purposely manipulated his scores higher than what they honestly thought he deserved because they wanted him to win (the freeskate if not the whole shebang)
    If we believe that the short program was objectively better, then either 2) or 3) or both must be true.
    I agree with #2.

    But we still have to ask whether subjective factors do figure into the scoring, and how. How much do expectations, skate order, emotional response to a good human interest story, etc., affect the judges' perceptions in similar ways that they affect fans'?
    I think expectations and perceptions factor in to a certain extent, though it is hard to quantify. And they certainly did under 6.0 as well.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    If you are referring to my second paragraph in post #305, as I said Aussie Willy, I was agreeing with Frank's observation, and I prefaced my personal belief/ speculation with "seemingly," just as you prefaced yours with "maybe." It's really not a matter of proving anything. This isn't a court of law, and figure skating is not rocket science. At least, not to my knowledge.
    But Frank just said he didn't understand why Ten's PCS in LP was higher than his PCS in SP for which he thought Ten performed better. He didn't say whether Ten's SP was undermarked and LP was correct or Ten's LP was overmarked and SP was correct. So what do you agree with him?

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