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  1. #181
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    ^^ Yeah, but still as a newbie, without the political backing of a powerful fed in home country, no matter how good Osmond was in the sp at her first Worlds, she wouldn't have been scored so highly especially in the components. Lots to admire about Osmond and she acquitted herself well. The main things holding her back in London that politicking couldn't overcome was experience and maturity. Without the fp mistakes, Osmond in 4th at least, especially in London venue.

    I don't see anything at all "plastic" about Ashley Wagner. To each their own. I think Ashley could soften her arms, and obviously make sure she's fit and strong for battle next season (strategically, mentally, in all ways). Sometimes its better to skate with caution than it is to go all out and come unraveled. At this point, I doubt any criticisms are gonna make the U.S. ladies feel down in the dumps.

  2. #182
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    As long as Plushenko will win in Sichi 2014 with four mistakes I won't sing this petition. Fair play.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by zerom10 View Post
    As long as Plushenko will win in Sichi 2014 with four mistakes I won't sing this petition. Fair play.
    Well then you might as well sign the petition right now, as no chance on any planet that is happening.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Was her long really more complex than say Osmond's? I'm not saying Osmond is on her level skating skills wise (she's really really not), but curious here.
    Apologies if I missed a response to this question up thread. Carolina's choreography is on a whole different level of intricacy and detail than Osmond's. Bolero is a phenomenal piece of choreography.
    "Beautiful things don't ask for attention." -The Secret Life of Walter Mitty

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^ Yeah, but still as a newbie, without the political backing of a powerful fed in home country, no matter how good Osmond was in the sp at her first Worlds, she wouldn't have been scored so highly especially in the components. Lots to admire about Osmond and she acquitted herself well. The main things holding her back in London that politicking couldn't overcome was experience and maturity. Without the fp mistakes, Osmond in 4th at least, especially in London venue.
    Yu Na Kim set a World record in her first worlds, without being from a powerful federation, without skating from her home country. Osmond's component score was 8th overall. I can't quite tell if you're arguing that her score would have been unfairly lower if she wasn't from a powerful federation or if her score was unfairly too high because she is. But I think her component score was certainly fair for what she did in the short program.

    made_in_Canada, I'd be curious if you could articulate your point more. I do undeniably prefer Kostner's "Bolero" to Osmond's "Carmen" but I think Osmond's technical choreography is really quite excellent (technical meaning layout of elements, transitions, etc). I respond to Kostner's maturity of interpretation and amazing skating skills, but she also has more stop-and-pose moments (though I don't even dislike those, she does them so well and as emotional fulcrum points).

  6. #186
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    Well, going by my memory (I haven't re-watched either program since worlds), Carolina uses the nuances of the music in a way that no other woman does. I know what you mean by the "stop and pose" moments but she's actually still doing quite a bit in those moments as well. It never seems like a stop and breathe moment, if that makes sense. I also see a lot more originality and purpose in Carolina's choreography, it's very complete in that there aren't any wasted movements and her entire body is communicating. There's also a lot of subtlety in her choreography and that's a very difficult thing to do well. You're right that Osmond does have technically sound choreography and given some time I expect she'll develop that side of her skating quite a bit more. I just find that right now in direct comparison to Kostner it's a lot more raw and is lacking some of the refinement of Kostner.

    Hopefully that makes sense
    "Beautiful things don't ask for attention." -The Secret Life of Walter Mitty

  7. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^ Yeah, but still as a newbie, without the political backing of a powerful fed in home country, no matter how good Osmond was in the sp at her first Worlds, she wouldn't have been scored so highly especially in the components. Lots to admire about Osmond and she acquitted herself well. The main things holding her back in London that politicking couldn't overcome was experience and maturity. Without the fp mistakes, Osmond in 4th at least, especially in London venue.
    I agree about Osmond. Home country had nothing to do with placement. What I saw in her is a skater with the goods to go all the way (she reminds me so much of Rochette in her character and presentation) but it is not quite there yet. Give it a couple of years she has the potential to be something very special. It wasn't quite there are this event.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  8. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    I agree about Osmond. Home country had nothing to do with placement. What I saw in her is a skater with the goods to go all the way (she reminds me so much of Rochette in her character and presentation) but it is not quite there yet. Give it a couple of years she has the potential to be something very special. It wasn't quite there are this event.
    You mean you DON't agree about Osmond She also reminds me of Rochette in the power and strong carriage that she has. Although she appears to be much more of an extrovert. I love both skaters.

    I still don't understand why so many think Osmond was overmarked in her SP. Like some already pointed out, her PCS was only 8th highest, and her TR score was ridiculously low for skating probably one of the most choreographically complex (from a technical POV) programs delivered by a lady. To me she was UNDERmarked in her PCS. I don't know how people can disagree with her GOE on the jumps either.

    And seriously, people are still buying the power of Eville Canadian Bloc conspiracy/Canadian home ice advantage after V/M losing two major competitions to D/W now on the home ice, despite being THE stars of Skate Canada?
    Last edited by shine; 03-30-2013 at 10:38 PM.

  9. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    And seriously, people are still buying the power of Eville Canadian Bloc conspiracy/Canadian home ice advantage after V/M losing two major competitions to D/W now on the home ice, despite being THE stars of Skate Canada?
    That was part of the conspiracy you know, V/M were sold out for Chan's gold.

  10. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by algonquin View Post
    That was part of the conspiracy you know, V/M were sold out for Chan's gold.
    Canada Federation. How could you sold out V&M for that Chan!

    Poor skaters. In reality, they are all sh#t. Without their Federations, they would not have won anything at all.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  11. #191
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    I did sign this petition, not because I agree with all arguments in it, but because I hope that it might prompt the ISU to change the rules so a person with multiple falls can't beat someone with a cleaner performance when they're ranked 1-2 after the sp. I do think Chan's win was right in this competition because the rules allowed it as many have explained. Some very informative articles about this issue can be found here, amongst them more sugggestions to develop better judging criteria:

    http://www.examiner.com/article/opin...ram-components
    [Opining on Worlds: The plight and misuse of program components]

    http://www.examiner.com/article/opin...what-about-tes
    [perhaps a bit off-topic for this thread; Opining on Worlds: The sanity/sterility of tape delay, what about TES?]

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2013_03_10_archive.html
    [What a Great Mens Championship at 2013 Worlds]

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2013/0...n-and-ijs.html
    [even more analyzing chan and ijs]

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2013/0...re-pcs-vs.html
    [Another Thought to Consider RE: PCS vs. TES]

  12. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    I still don't understand why so many think Osmond was overmarked in her SP. Like some already pointed out, her PCS was only 8th highest, and her TR score was ridiculously low for skating probably one of the most choreographically complex (from a technical POV) programs delivered by a lady. To me she was UNDERmarked in her PCS. I don't know how people can disagree with her GOE on the jumps either.
    This.

  13. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    I still don't understand why so many think Osmond was overmarked in her SP.
    Because she is from CA NA DA! All Canadians are overmarked because Canadian Federation is
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  14. #194
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    Chan won, get over it!

    This thread should be closed already.

  15. #195
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    Thank you for the links, sadya. Those are quite interesting analyses but I am not sure I feel more enlightened now after reading them than I was before about how the rules should be changed to better reflect what the skaters put out on the ice.

    For instance, examiner says:

    But I guarantee you, had Ten skated before names like Takahashi, Fernandez, and Hanyu, his short program score would have been a good three or four points lower.
    Apparently, examiner believes that the judges don't necessarily mark what's on th ice but that the marking has a lot to do with reputation and starting order. How should the scoring system be designed to prevent this from happening?

    So an 8.61 for Performance/Execution and an 8.96 for Interpretation (higher than Ten's 8.86)? Both marks should've been a half-point to a full point lower, which would have translated to two to four points in the overall score. Chan won by just over one point.
    I have to agree that Chan's marks for PE and IN feel wrong when you compare them with Ten's but if we think that Chan would most likely have scored somewhere in the mid-nineties on the PC mark for a clean free skate, maybe a loss of around 6 points in all was enough punishment in the minds of the judges for the mistakes he made?

    Which brings me to flutzingaround:

    All things considered, true-- Chan received an 8.61 in the free skate for his performance and execution. Drop that down to a 7.96 and the two skaters would have tied overall, with Ten winning based on the higher free skate score.
    Assuming Chan would have scored above 99 in the SP with a better executed 4/3 combination and 3A, the two skaters wouldn't have tied overall and Chan would still have won, I guess. Would Chan's win due to an even larger SP margin have been less controversial than it is? Because the whole outcry seems to come down to you can't win with falls to a skater who skated cleanly.

    I personally am in favor of a more severe deduction for falls but this deduction would have to be applied to all the skaters at every competition and I'm afraid we don't live in an ideal figure skating world where Patrick Chan is the only one falling, so I don't know how much support a change in the rules to punish falls more harshly would find among the ISU officials and within national federations.

  16. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by Debrah View Post
    Wow, this Chan hate is getting out of hand.
    ..
    I don't know if you even read many of the posts. I don't see Chan hatred here. What I am seeing is protest against the current judging system, and judges holding up skaters with reputation, regardless of how they skate. Many of us actually love the way Chan moves across the ice, with attention to detail, but when he skates poorly it needs to reflect in the marks. Part of the problem is the system itself, but there is also a part that allows well reputed skaters to get away with mistakes. Chan is not the only beneficiary of this. I had expressed my protest when V&T won despite some major errors earlier this season (can't remember if it was GPF or one of the GPs). Clearly some improvements to the judging system is needed, but the general tendency of FS judges to be generous with top skaters when they skate poorly needs to change. It's a whole cultural change for the sport.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I had expressed my protest when V&T won despite some major errors earlier this season (can't remember if it was GPF or one of the GPs).
    It was on the GPF

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Apparently, examiner believes that the judges don't necessarily mark what's on th ice but that the marking has a lot to do with reputation and starting order. How should the scoring system be designed to prevent this from happening?
    Various people have commented throughout the years how judges don't always mark what they see before them and how difficult it is to judge about 25-40 skaters in one competition, how which group a skater is makes more different for the marks than what is actually shown on the ice, etc. Some people, including one of the Dutch Eurosport commentators, call it the 'psychology of judging' . I still remember discussions about marks related to the skating position in a certain group from the '90s with the old judging system, that human element is still here in the new judging system and as it is us humans judging, I wonder if it could ever really be solved. Better training for the judges about these issues might help.

  19. #199

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    I do think most judges try in good faith to judge what they see just as many knowledgeable skating fans do. I think people don't realize what an endurance test it really is to judge all those skaters and hold one's concentration. Also, when one is comparing skaters to one another (yes I know COP has tried to solve that problem) one can't help but give a high quality skater higher scores in some respect just because the difference in quality is much more apparent when compared to a skater who isn't as high quality. Look at the record-breaking V/T Worlds performance for a beautifully executed performance when the night for the most part was disappointing or Ten's higher-than-usual PCS at Worlds LP.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by sadya View Post
    I do think Chan's win was right in this competition because the rules allowed it as many have explained. Some very informative articles about this issue can be found here, amongst them more sugggestions to develop better judging criteria:

    http://www.examiner.com/article/opin...ram-components
    [Opining on Worlds: The plight and misuse of program components]

    http://www.examiner.com/article/opin...what-about-tes
    [perhaps a bit off-topic for this thread; Opining on Worlds: The sanity/sterility of tape delay, what about TES?]

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2013_03_10_archive.html
    [What a Great Mens Championship at 2013 Worlds]

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2013/0...n-and-ijs.html
    [even more analyzing chan and ijs]

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2013/0...re-pcs-vs.html
    [Another Thought to Consider RE: PCS vs. TES]
    And I wish everyone would read these. I've read more than a few comments here and elsewhere complaining about the results, but offering no actual solutions. I respect these guys a lot for offering an analysis of the event without resulting to bitching and whining about how our sport is going downhill.

    ETA: I don't disagree that it sucks that a skater who falls multiple times can win over another skater.
    Last edited by manleywoman; 04-01-2013 at 12:10 AM.
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