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  1. #421

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    I think a balance would be great. The difficult part is finding that right balance. We want people to push themselves and be ambitious with their elements and choreography, but we also don't want performances that are just full of mistakes because the skaters aren't ready to perform up to that level.

  2. #422

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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    Maybe. But it seems the majority of FS fans would like to see flawless champions..
    Everyone wants to see flawless programs, however the reality is skaters are human and humans make mistakes. The system takes that into account.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  3. #423
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    There is the "what" that happens on the day -- like what were the gestures, the positions in the spins, the pattern -- and the "how/how well", which in which form, technique, and transitions are a critical part of the equation. The quality can affect the "what," for example, when a skater loses speed in the spins unintentionally and the rotations no longer reflect the character or rhythm of the music. It doesn't matter what the choreographer intended if the skater can't show it. This is one of the places where PCS inflation is most damaging, as there should be no problem with giving credit for difficulty (leveling), but when there could be any or no music playing, not only should the skater lose on GOE, the skater's CH should impacted, IMO. The same is true for step sequences that could be beautifully done and very difficult, but are antithetical, to the music. A skater who slumps or skates through the music between elements should not be getting big IN or CH scores, because that skater is either doing a sad job of interpreting the choreography, regardless of how many jumps or spins are of high quality or how much emotion is shown in the big step sequence, but neither should a skater who tightens up or telegraphs before jumping or slows down into spin entrances, but does intricate or expressive things between elements. Weaving in and out between performing and keeping form and strength of gesture and attempting elements should be a real drag on scores. When it's not, and skaters are disproportionately rewarded or at least not dinged for PCS inconsistencies, it's the same argument against doing simpler things well: why bother when it isn't rewarded?

    If this sounds like getting credit or dinged twice, just as a skater is given credit in the TR scores for difficult entrances and exits from the jumps, I think this is correct, and it's also correct to neutralize gains when difficult things are executed but are anti-musical. PCS are meant to gauge specific characteristics throughout the duration of the program, and the elements are key to all of the PCS categories, although they are by no means the only parts of the program in which PCS should be assessed.

    Quote Originally Posted by JanetB View Post
    The choreography mark is given not because the choreography is difficult but because the skater performed the difficult choreography with out flaw, which Patrick did.
    I disagree, and so do the bullet points: the elements are key parts of the choreography and interpreting the music, although by no means the only parts. For the most part, Chan performed a lot of difficult and music appropriate "what," and he did it very well, but his mistakes, while a small percentage of the program, affected both, as he missed seconds here and there of his program (the "what") and the awkwardness of these particular mistakes affected the overall quality. One of the issues with setting a few high standard is that there is a much greater contrast and impact when someone falters.

    That isn't to say I think he should have been dumped. I wasn't there, and there are many things that aren't as important live because other things balance them out, but look much worse on camera.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  4. #424

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Everyone wants to see flawless programs, however the reality is skaters are human and humans make mistakes. The system takes that into account.
    Its a competition where somebody is suppose to win. Its ridiculous for the system not to heavily taken into account mistakes. Its a competition!

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Its a competition where somebody is suppose to win. Its ridiculous for the system not to heavily taken into account mistakes. Its a competition!
    Of course, but in swimming or skiing, you can still win with a mistake or 2, and no one complains !

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Of course, but in swimming or skiing, you can still win with a mistake or 2, and no one complains !
    But not in gymnastics, or rhythmic gymnastics, synchronised swimming, these sports are also artistically sports.

  7. #427
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    But in sking cant win by falling. You are,out of competition. Might win in sj
    you can win by little mistakes provided your main,competitor does the same.

    You can actually apply the pc marks to any sport. How basketball sat,the like how the basket is made add +3,oohio state, where eveb though made,basket add the 3 points for making it but deduct -2 for hiw made. Swimming leys say came in first but didnt stay in middle of lane deduct 2. Sking miss gate but went back deducut or add extra 30 seconds on time. Football hit goal post but didnt fall over line add 1 point. Baseball ball looked good until ended up foul add 2 points. Soccer scoreless but tried real hard and played in snow losing team gets 2 points
    The pc scored applied randomly and not strictly accordingly to the rules for everyone can make a world of difference and mess up the so called sport

  8. #428

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Of course, but in swimming or skiing, you can still win with a mistake or 2, and no one complains !
    Completely different. Swimming is not a judged sports. In swimming as long as you use the appropriate stroke (ie not using freestyle in the breastroke) nobody judges how you get to the finish line. There's no extra points for the beautiful stroke. Its whoever gets their first wins. Same with skiing except for ski jumping and then each jump is judged differently not all in one performance)...As you as you ski appropriately its all about who gets their first.

    Skating is different. Its a judged sport so giving someone high marks for things like performance/execution when said person's performance is littered with visible glaring errors is troubling.

    This is different its a judged sport with all one performance together. And some people get hit.

    Reality is in every sport you have to perform well on game day. Basketball players don't get to start out with a huge point cushion when game day happens. Lindsey Vonn doesn't get to start out on the finish line sooner than everyone else. They all have to perform and theirs objective measurements.

    Now skating is judged and so it is subjective. But I'm sorry its problematic when someone can win with glaring errors like that. To me the fact that those errors are so glaring and obvious is why they should be taken seriously. One has to ask again if a skater is guaranteed sky high PCS no matter how they skate why have the competition? And then you have the situation that some do get hit hard when they are falling a lot and some don't. The actual performance has to matter.

    And its not like Patrick just had one mistake in that free skate. People could have lived with just one mistake. He had multiple falls.

  9. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Of course, but in swimming or skiing, you can still win with a mistake or 2, and no one complains !
    LOL what is a "mistake" in swimming. Other than a missed turn there is practically no such thing. Getting tired or losing your form is not a mistake, it is simply diminishing in quality and slowing down.

    As for skiing, nobody who falls twice and stumbles/falls four or five times even crosses the finish line, never mind winning.

    If you want a parallel sport to compare to how about speed skating, Dan Jansen during the 2002 Olympics after a Dutch skater fell "but this isnt figure skating Dan, when you fall you are out of contention for a medal", showing the kind of running joke figure skating and its judging had already started to come, but it is only 10 times worse now.

  10. #430

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Completely different. Swimming is not a judged sports. In swimming as long as you use the appropriate stroke (ie not using freestyle in the breastroke) nobody judges how you get to the finish line.
    They most certainly do. There are rules about not starting before the signal, when you have to start stroking by after you've entered the water, what kind of suit you can wear, etc. etc., and there are officials to make sure those rules are being followed. Just because the quality of your stroke isn't being subjectively evaluated doesn't mean it's not a judged sport.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  11. #431

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    They most certainly do. There are rules about not starting before the signal, when you have to start stroking by after you've entered the water, what kind of suit you can wear, etc. etc., and there are officials to make sure those rules are being followed. Just because the quality of your stroke isn't being subjectively evaluated doesn't mean it's not a judged sport.
    And if you beak those rules your disqualified. Huge difference.

  12. #432

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    Big music competitions such as the Tchaikovsky International Competition (and even smaller ones) have, for years, withheld the Gold Medal/First Prize if the judges feel no one has demonstrated a "winning" standard. Perhaps FS should do the same?
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  13. #433

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    If it's a sport where "first over the line" wins there will never be as many comments about who won. Because our sport is judged on "Artistic evaluations and choices" (two judges, one says I love how he does this and gives a 9, one say's I hate how he does this and gives a 7) you will never make everyone happy. As long as the win fits the rules of the day (which Patrick did) nothing can be done. In 50 years time people will still say Patrick Chan won three Golds at worlds (so far).
    I guess the hard thing for a lot of people to accept is why God would allow me to go running through their yards, yelling and spinning around.


  14. #434

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzisk8tr View Post
    If it's a sport where "first over the line" wins there will never be as many comments about who won. Because our sport is judged on "Artistic evaluations and choices" (two judges, one says I love how he does this and gives a 9, one say's I hate how he does this and gives a 7) you will never make everyone happy. As long as the win fits the rules of the day (which Patrick did) nothing can be done. In 50 years time people will still say Patrick Chan won three Golds at worlds (so far).
    Because all people remember about Schuba is she was the champ? If these are the rules that mistakes get so lightly punished, than the rules need to change.. Because thats what Chan's win is reminiscent of.

  15. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Because all people remember about Schuba is she was the champ?
    LOL exactly. The way Chan's victories were achieved will not be forgotten in the annals of history, they will stick out like a sore thumb, as much or more than Schuba. Atleast people acknowledge Schuba was a rightful winner under the rules of the time, and even that is not true of Chan.

  16. #436

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    LOL exactly. The way Chan's victories were achieved will not be forgotten in the annals of history, they will stick out like a sore thumb, as much or more than Schuba. Atleast people acknowledge Schuba was a rightful winner under the rules of the time, and even that is not true of Chan.
    Chan's first world title was brilliantly skated (in fairness)

  17. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Chan's first world title was brilliantly skated (in fairness)
    True, I am referring to the last 2 of course.

  18. #438

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzisk8tr View Post
    If it's a sport where "first over the line" wins there will never be as many comments about who won. Because our sport is judged on "Artistic evaluations and choices" (two judges, one says I love how he does this and gives a 9, one say's I hate how he does this and gives a 7) you will never make everyone happy. As long as the win fits the rules of the day (which Patrick did) nothing can be done. In 50 years time people will still say Patrick Chan won three Golds at worlds (so far).
    The first in the line was after comments about how people can win in some sports while making mistakes. And what I'm saying is these people may make a small mistake but just have to beat the others in order to win. While in sports some famous players may get ref reptutation for the the NFL doesn't hand football player points before entering the field.

    So yes in basketball you may miss some baskets but you still have to hit more than the other team-every time.

    Yes skating is a subjective sport, but when Patrick falls twice, than makes two other major errors and scores in 89 in PCS for that mess. Very close to what he gets the few times he skates well. (And yes I'll say Patrick is normally making all kinds of mistakes)

    The feeling becomes that Patrick is guaranteed a set amount of points before entering the ice. This is frankly unfair. Now yes Patrick is still going to have a much higher base no Skating skills than some other skaters. But he shouldn't be guaranteed as much points as this system many are creating.

    The fact of the matter is the issue is yes its a judged sport. But in most judged sports the athletes still have to perform well. If Shawn Johnson falls off the beam, she's not going to score close to what she'd score if she didn't fall of beam. Well Chan had multiple falls of beam and was barely hit at all.

    Its an issue. A huge one. The sport has to start making more penalties for errors-mandatory penalities. And nobody should be guaranteed super high scores on one half the mark before they step foot on the ice.

  19. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    But it seems the majority of FS fans would like to see flawless champions..
    If this were true, then there would be (1) an overwhelming sentiment here on FSU that Jamie Salé and David Peltier should have won the Olympic Gold Medal in 2002 because of their "flawless" Free Skate, (2) far more respect here for Sarah Hughes and her two "flawless" programs at the same competition, and (3) no whining about how Evgeni Plushenko was robbed of Olympic gold in 2010.


  20. #440

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    To JJ: Says you. Sorry, but that's like believing a North Korean Leader talking about how happy his people are.
    Last edited by Ozzisk8tr; 03-30-2013 at 05:47 AM.
    I guess the hard thing for a lot of people to accept is why God would allow me to go running through their yards, yelling and spinning around.


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