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  1. #281
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    Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Doing a program in practice and doing it in competition are two different things. Its not like Patrick's poor free skate at worlds was some kind of one-off for him. Its rather what he normally does. And its not like its one mistake and everything else is great. I'm sorry I think its very fair to be asking these things in Patrick's case. And besides from what I understand not every skater trains run throughs. The issue isn't so much Chan not being able to do the moves in and of themselves as doing everything together. I don't know Chan's training system, whether its competition or nerves or the other one...

    V/T where also have issues being very messy in the GP. They were still winning everything, but they actually moved things around because they realized it wasn't working.

    Once again Patrick Chan fans keep on saying well he has so much complicated choreography, so much more difficult transitions, and he skates with such speed deep edges. And others just don't.

    What I'm saying is Patrick hasn't shown that he can actually handle all of that choreography and transitions because he's normally making multiple major errors. Also at times perhaps he's going way to fast, and that's leading to errors too.

    I'm sorry but I think its perfectly fair to ask why its a good idea for this sport to encourage folks to throw in difficulty they clearly can't handle. Chan's a gorgeous skater and his skating skills from what everyone saying is really the best in the world. When he skates well, I agree he's the best. But I don't think the direction IJS should go in is skaters being encouraged to have multiple falls in their programs.

    And I really think IJS is pretty much doing that when it rewards 6 points for quad falls, and gives skaters 9s in PCS for programs with multiple big errors, because that person had difficult choreography and transitions. Even if the entire program was not executed well.

    I do like a lot about IJS, and I don't want to see the sport to go back to 6.0 programs that in a lot of cases were nothing but jumps. I enjoy for example seeing skaters do more difficult footwork etc.

    But I think its ridiculous how IJS seems to according to its supporters but no value whatsoever on the skater going clean or even close to clean.. No value in my mind in good execution. I think its wrong and its making the sport hard to watch. There has to be a balance between execution and difficult programs.
    I can totally see what you mean, and for sure practice is different from actual competition, but jamming a program full of stuff to rack up points seems to be what the scoring system is all about and I think that's why we don't see as many clean programs anymore. Everyone's trying to do it, some better than others, I don't think we can blame any of the skaters for trying to play by the rules though, as much as we do or do not like them. Unfortunately this formula has been working for Patrick so I ask, why fix something if it ain't broke? (I'm not talking about the scoring system, I'm talking about a skaters and choreographers approach to it).

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    Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Of course Todd Eldredge knows a lot about figure skating, so does Michael Weiss. And so does Ryan Bradley who, from what I've heard, tweeted he thought Joubert should have won in London. As a figure skater himself, Bradley is an expert too and his opinion should also be considered. But I would have liked Todd to be more specific in his criticism, does he blame Chan's win on a flawed scoring system or does he think the system is actually okay but that the official judges from Worlds were a bunch of incompetent/corrupt people? At least Plushenko was loud and clear "It wasn't Chan who won the Championships, it was his federation"- read corruption, right? Btw, Plushenko with a bad landing and a hard fall on the 3A in the short program at 2013 Europeans beat a clean Voronov with a 4T/3T and 3A on the components mark by nearly five points, does Plushenko think he deserved that mark or was it corruption in his favor? The figure skating viewers really need all these clarifications from experts to be able to identify the source of the evil coz it can't be Patrick Chan, Chan just takes the ice and skates, the scores are totally out of his control.

    I'd also be curious to know the opinion of Todd - whom I respect very much for his achievements and his longevity as a competitor - about Ashley Wagner winning the national title this year with two bad falls in the free skate.





    Oh, I see. Well, I noticed that Max Aaron met the criteria better than Verner and that Joubert met them almost as well as Takahashi - who said that Joubert is just a jumping bean?



    I do but thank you for reminding me.
    Interesting points. I think we all forget that this system has benefited others as well, but Patrick is the main punching bag. I don't think any of these skaters should be held responsible for their results unless its proven that there is foul play going on and they are readily involved.

    I'd love to hear what other skaters think of the result. Kurt, Scott, Elvis etc. it would be interesting, but I would also love then to include thoughts on other results you have brought up here, I don't want it to be a Patrick bashing party. We've heard from Plu and Johnny and Todd and Christina Gao.
    I'd actually like to know what christina thought of her results at US Nats this year as many felt she was held back and should have finished higher.
    Patrick is obviously a glaring example, but he's hardly alone in this.

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGrand View Post
    I can totally see what you mean, and for sure practice is different from actual competition, but jamming a program full of stuff to rack up points seems to be what the scoring system is all about and I think that's why we don't see as many clean programs anymore. Everyone's trying to do it, some better than others, I don't think we can blame any of the skaters for trying to play by the rules though, as much as we do or do not like them. Unfortunately this formula has been working for Patrick so I ask, why fix something if it ain't broke? (I'm not talking about the scoring system, I'm talking about a skaters and choreographers approach to it).
    Exactly. The way the scoring is currently done (attempting to assign values to individual elements) encourages doing as many elements as possible with as high a degree of difficulty as possible. That's going to result in 1. similar-looking programs, as there are only so many things you can do on skates, 2. programs that may be less expressive as the actions to set up high-point moves are what they are and it's unlikely there are lots of pieces of music that precisely match it, and 3. without changing the scoring to severely penalize errors, skaters will go for the hard element that even flawed gets them more points than doing an easier element cleanly.

    I'm also seeing repeated in a lot of these "did Chan deserve it" threads the statement that it's now possible to get too big a lead in the SP, making the LP almost an anticlimax. Um...isn't this the argument (along with 'non-TV-friendly') that ultimately got Figures canned? It was possible for an unremarkable free skater to set up such a huge lead they basically just had to show up and actually move to win overall? Is IJS making the SP the new figures?

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGrand View Post
    Interesting points. I think we all forget that this system has benefited others as well, but Patrick is the main punching bag. I don't think any of these skaters should be held responsible for their results unless its proven that there is foul play going on and they are readily involved.

    I'd love to hear what other skaters think of the result. Kurt, Scott, Elvis etc. it would be interesting, but I would also love then to include thoughts on other results you have brought up here, I don't want it to be a Patrick bashing party. We've heard from Plu and Johnny and Todd and Christina Gao.
    I'd actually like to know what christina thought of her results at US Nats this year as many felt she was held back and should have finished higher.
    Patrick is obviously a glaring example, but he's hardly alone in this.
    I don't think Kurt could express how he really feels because he works for CBC. Plus he is commentating with Tracey Wilson who sees Patrick as if he can do no wrong. I would like to know what Elvis, Michelle, Tara, Kristi and Yagudin think of the results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    Exactly. The way the scoring is currently done (attempting to assign values to individual elements) encourages doing as many elements as possible with as high a degree of difficulty as possible. That's going to result in 1. similar-looking programs, as there are only so many things you can do on skates, 2. programs that may be less expressive as the actions to set up high-point moves are what they are and it's unlikely there are lots of pieces of music that precisely match it, and 3. without changing the scoring to severely penalize errors, skaters will go for the hard element that even flawed gets them more points than doing an easier element cleanly.

    I'm also seeing repeated in a lot of these "did Chan deserve it" threads the statement that it's now possible to get too big a lead in the SP, making the LP almost an anticlimax. Um...isn't this the argument (along with 'non-TV-friendly') that ultimately got Figures canned? It was possible for an unremarkable free skater to set up such a huge lead they basically just had to show up and actually move to win overall? Is IJS making the SP the new figures?
    I thought you can only do the same number of elements as everyone else??

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    Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    I don't think Kurt could express how he really feels because he works for CBC. Plus he is commenting with Tracey Wilson who sees Patrick as if he can do no wrong. I would like to know what Elvis, Michelle, Tara, Kristi and Yagudin think of the results.
    Oh I know, I'd just like to know what he thinks of it all
    The others you mentioned are great too.

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    Wilson is so pro whatever country she is commentating for it is laughable. When she commentates for U.S events too the U.S skaters can do no wrong, and she even gushes endlessly over their mediocre out of the top 10 ranked skaters, especialy the pairs and dancers, sometimes calling someone who is likely to finish 14th at the Worlds as a medal threat. I think we have no idea what she really feels either, you will never get it while she is commentating. To access how she really feels about any given Canadian or American skater though hire her for BBC or something, and see what she says on each.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    I don't think Kurt could express how he really feels because he works for CBC. Plus he is commentating with Tracey Wilson who sees Patrick as if he can do no wrong. I would like to know what Elvis, Michelle, Tara, Kristi and Yagudin think of the results.
    Just a few words from Yagudin about the men's competition in London as translated by an online machine.

    "I do not know where it is hoped that Maxim Kovtun can enter the world championship in the top ten. It would have been extremely difficult to do this. Any of the top ten shows so high ... And Chan - it's ... there's unfinished painting on a canvas you can draw an analogy with, but here the picture is completely finished, and you cannot take your eyes off it!

    Plushenko chance of a little more than in the same Voronov or Menchov. Again forced to offer to look at things realistically. What we did with Eugene - it was good at the time, but compared to what I saw in London, we were in yesterday. Figure skating has become a completely different "- quoted Yagudin" Soviet Sport ".


    http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-s...147549849.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Just a few words from Yagudin about the men's competition in London as translated by an online machine.

    "I do not know where it is hoped that Maxim Kovtun can enter the world championship in the top ten. It would have been extremely difficult to do this. Any of the top ten shows so high ... And Chan - it's ... there's unfinished painting on a canvas you can draw an analogy with, but here the picture is completely finished, and you cannot take your eyes off it!

    Plushenko chance of a little more than in the same Voronov or Menchov. Again forced to offer to look at things realistically. What we did with Eugene - it was good at the time, but compared to what I saw in London, we were in yesterday. Figure skating has become a completely different "- quoted Yagudin" Soviet Sport ".


    http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-s...147549849.html
    That talk was given after Chan's brilliant SP. I bet Yagudin would have slightly different opinion on Chan's LP.

    As for Yagudin's opinion on Plushenko's chances of winning Sochi, he also once said something like "of course better than the skaters from South Africa".

  10. #290
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  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Just a few words from Yagudin about the men's competition in London as translated by an online machine.

    "I do not know where it is hoped that Maxim Kovtun can enter the world championship in the top ten. It would have been extremely difficult to do this. Any of the top ten shows so high ... And Chan - it's ... there's unfinished painting on a canvas you can draw an analogy with, but here the picture is completely finished, and you cannot take your eyes off it!

    Plushenko chance of a little more than in the same Voronov or Menchov. Again forced to offer to look at things realistically. What we did with Eugene - it was good at the time, but compared to what I saw in London, we were in yesterday. Figure skating has become a completely different "- quoted Yagudin" Soviet Sport ".


    http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-s...147549849.html
    This interview with Plushy's comment : http://www.sovsport.ru/gazeta/article-item/594352 The whole translation http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...o-Sochi/page11

    Kovtun - 19th. Save us, Plushenko!
    Two Olympic champions - Yagudin and Plushenko about failure of our young athletes in London


    Peerless Patrick Chan and - the 19th place of Maxim Kovtun in the short program ... Those who might afford a sleepless night, and broadcast from Canada began at four o'clock in the morning, immediately began to remember the name of Plushenko. Between Chan who again set world record, and our junior, who has started leg weakness from disturbance, there is an abyss. And for us it is time to stop living in illusions and accept the ugly truth. Men's figure skating in Russia is now just not there.
    Specifically to look at Chan, Olympic champion of Salt Lake City Alexei Yagudin went to YouTube. Yagudin is known for his skepticism. Many years he repeated that he does not watch figure skating because he does not have time.

    No time - always means just one thing: it's boring.
    This time Alexei watched.


    YAGUDIN: WHAT ZHENYA AND I DID IS IN THE PAST

    - What happened to Maxim Kovtun, I do not know, I only saw the top three, - Yagudin told me on the telephone.
    - Instead of combination 4-3, Kovtun did 3-1.
    - In such cases, how said my first coach Alexei Nikolaevich Mishin: "Look at things realistically". I do not understand there was hope that Maxim Kovtun can make the top ten at the world championships. It would have been extremely difficult for him to do this. Any of the top ten shows such a high level
    ... And Chan - it's like ... there's unfinished canvases, draw an analogy with the painting, and here the picture, completely finished, which you can not take your eyes off!

    - Was it worth in such a deplorable situation to fight for the second ticket to the Olympics? Who to sent and what for? For the 19th place?
    - It’s always necessary to fight. Never give up and go to the end. Maxim will hardly be able to recoup in the long program, it is somewhere a millionth of a chance that he would suddenly gets into top ten. We really have not men's figure skating, to this, I will not argue. But you can not just sit down and put hands on knees? We have to go ahead and do what we can.

    - And all that we have - it's Plushenko.
    - Zhenya has a little more chance than Voronov or Menshov has. Once again I must ask to look at things realistically. What Zhenya and I were doing was good at the time, but against the background of what I saw in London, we are left in yesterday. Figure skating became completely different!


    PLUSHENKO: I DID NOT PLACE ANY EXPECTATIONS ON KOVTUN

    ... Evgeni Plushenko yesterday flew to Israel for examination. He did not have time to see a short program at World Championships yet, even on YouTube.
    "I forgot my iPod in the home," - Zhenya admitted. "I wanted to take it, but something distracted me, and I could not put it in the bag. So far I know only the results. Let's not attack Maxim Kovtun. 19th place, nothing remarkable, of course not, but he's still a very young athlete, and his free program at the European Championships in Zagreb, where he first performed at the senior level, looked very dignified. What happened to him in London, maybe there are some details that I do not know, but, probably, the point is that he has not yet matured ... I did not place any expectations on him, to be honest. But anyway there was not alternative to Maxim.

    - I have just talked with Alexei Yagudin. He said that figure skating gone far ahead, and what you did stayed in yesterday.
    - Um ... You see, Alexei retired in 2002, and after that I skated at the Olympics in Turin in 2006 and won, skated at the Vancouver Olympics in 2010, also won at the last European Championships in Sheffield. I skated under the new judging system and won, so I somehow disagree that stayed in yesterday.

    ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by SGrand View Post
    I can totally see what you mean, and for sure practice is different from actual competition, but jamming a program full of stuff to rack up points seems to be what the scoring system is all about and I think that's why we don't see as many clean programs anymore. Everyone's trying to do it, some better than others, I don't think we can blame any of the skaters for trying to play by the rules though, as much as we do or do not like them. Unfortunately this formula has been working for Patrick so I ask, why fix something if it ain't broke? (I'm not talking about the scoring system, I'm talking about a skaters and choreographers approach to it).
    I kind of want to point out that of course skaters are going to do what's not broken. However I want to point out to you whats fair is a lot of skaters PCS do fluctate when they skate poorly. For example Kozuka's PCS change very much in terms of when he skates well and when he doesn't. Hanyu for example his PCS went down here form worlds by almost 5 points from the GPF.

    So for some skaters falling a lot or not skating up to par does hurt your PCS and falling a lot for others doesn't. And I don't think that's fair. Watching the programs again I say that I can agree Ten's not as good of a skater as Chan, but Chan really was a mess... And I frankly don't understand how Chan beat Fernandez in the free skate...

    Daisuke's PCS to went down by almost five points. And Chan's points from GPF were less than a point.

    So one of the big issues I have is the judges aren't consistent with this PCS shouldn't by affected by performance. Other skaters- top skaters in this sport Do get hit much harder on PCS for less errors than Chan does. And so I'm sorry its not fair.
    Last edited by bek; 03-23-2013 at 07:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    I don't think Kurt could express how he really feels because he works for CBC. Plus he is commentating with Tracey Wilson who sees Patrick as if he can do no wrong. I would like to know what Elvis, Michelle, Tara, Kristi and Yagudin think of the results.
    In fact, Kurt named Denis Ten as his highlight of the championships in the final broadcast and Tracy agreed with him (though she had chosen V/M's free dance as her highlight). This doesn't necessarily mean he thinks Chan's win was unjustified as he is able to read the protocols as are the rest of us.

    One reason for this result was that Ten came out of left field so he wasn't really on the judges radar in the short program. Nevertheless, he scored 30 points over his personal best overall, but just couldn't make up the difference. Had any of the favorites skated two decent programs they would have won the title. Chan lost twice this year after poor skates. Judges are willing to mark him down. The judges did mark him far below what he would have received had he skated better on both jumps and PCS. The reality is that he has so much content in his skates that he really can afford to make a few mistakes. Don't forget that Ten also doubled a jump and didn't max out his triples, so he was 2 triples and many points down to start. Yes, it was a fantastic skate and I would have loved for him to have been able to earn enough points to win, but it just wasn't enough. He was within 2 points of Chan on PCS, a huge achievement, and won the free skate by a comfortable margin. The judges marked what they saw, marked Chan well below what he normally receives on PCS, and the fact that he still earned enough points is a product of the system that rewards what you do rather than what you fail to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nlyoung View Post
    In fact, Kurt named Denis Ten as his highlight of the championships in the final broadcast and Tracy agreed with him (though she had chosen V/M's free dance as her highlight). This doesn't necessarily mean he thinks Chan's win was unjustified as he is able to read the protocols as are the rest of us.

    One reason for this result was that Ten came out of left field so he wasn't really on the judges radar in the short program. Nevertheless, he scored 30 points over his personal best overall, but just couldn't make up the difference. Had any of the favorites skated two decent programs they would have won the title. Chan lost twice this year after poor skates. Judges are willing to mark him down. The judges did mark him far below what he would have received had he skated better on both jumps and PCS. The reality is that he has so much content in his skates that he really can afford to make a few mistakes. Don't forget that Ten also doubled a jump and didn't max out his triples, so he was 2 triples and many points down to start. Yes, it was a fantastic skate and I would have loved for him to have been able to earn enough points to win, but it just wasn't enough. He was within 2 points of Chan on PCS, a huge achievement, and won the free skate by a comfortable margin. The judges marked what they saw, marked Chan well below what he normally receives on PCS, and the fact that he still earned enough points is a product of the system that rewards what you do rather than what you fail to do.
    How did they mark Chan well below what he usually receives in PCS. At the GPF with a much better skate in a lot of ways Chan got a 90.64.. Here he got an 89 in PCS? How exactly is that marking Patrick "well below on PCS?" At Cup of Russia he did get 92.7 so I guess three points. Oh what a mark down! Fall twice and get a little less than 3 points when you have a clean skate...

    Especially when Daisuke got docked by five points. At Cup of Russia, Chan didn't do a triple axel in the free.. I actually wouldn't mind if he dropped the triple axel and one altogether if he was clean, he is the best skater. I kind of wish he'd go that route....
    Last edited by bek; 03-23-2013 at 08:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    That talk was given after Chan's brilliant SP. I bet Yagudin would have slightly different opinion on Chan's LP.

    As for Yagudin's opinion on Plushenko's chances of winning Sochi, he also once said something like "of course better than the skaters from South Africa".
    If you have Yagudin's opinion of the free skate, please bring it here. He didn't tweet anything about the results and I am not aware of any talk he would have had with reporters on the matter. So I could only speculate but I don't want to put words into Yagudin's mouth.

    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Especially when Daisuke got docked by five points. At Cup of Russia, Chan didn't do a triple axel in the free.. I actually wouldn't mind if he dropped the triple axel and one altogether if he was clean, he is the best skater. I kind of wish he'd go that route....
    I noticed something and I want to share it with you. When Daisuke attempts two quads in his free skate (GPF), he scores around 90 on the program components. When he does just one quad like at the recent Worlds, his PC mark drops to 85 and when he has downgrades/multiple underrotation and a fall, he gets 82 or so from the judges. Isn't it interesting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevlin View Post
    y es, Buttle would have skated that number better. Much more artistically. Love the Buttle Man.
    Perhaps the exhibition version, but Chan's speed and power is superior, and Buttle wouldn't have been able to do the FW in the SP as well, and he couldn't touch the jumps at his best.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    To access how she really feels about any given Canadian or American skater though hire her for BBC or something, and see what she says on each.
    We can be sure she'd say that Schoenfelder is a shadow of his former self. Perhaps suddently Jenna McCorkell would be the second coming of Peggy Fleming, and Coomes/Buckland the next G/P.

    Quote Originally Posted by nlyoung View Post
    In fact, Kurt named Denis Ten as his highlight of the championships in the final broadcast and Tracy agreed with him (though she had chosen V/M's free dance as her highlight). This doesn't necessarily mean he thinks Chan's win was unjustified as he is able to read the protocols as are the rest of us.
    PJ Kwong chose Kozuka's FS as her highlight of the 2011 WC's, and I don't think anyone thought Chan didn't deserve that win.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    If you have Yagudin's opinion of the free skate, please bring it here. He didn't tweet anything about the results and I am not aware of any talk he would have had with reporters on the matter. So I could only speculate but I don't want to put words into Yagudin's mouth.
    I am also very curious what he would say about LP. Trust me, I am not the person who likes to put words in anybody's mouth, but I do not think he would say Chan's LP is a sort of master piece which one cannot take away his/her eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    That talk was given after Chan's brilliant SP. I bet Yagudin would have slightly different opinion on Chan's LP.
    I am not surprised that Yagudin has chosen Chan, because he (Yagudin) and Plushenko were fierce rivals. Similarly, I am not surprised that Eldridge has chosen Ten, because Eldridge was Frank Carroll's pupil, as Ten is now.

    I rewatched the event on TV today, and I have to say that Ten seemed very slow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    I noticed something and I want to share it with you. When Daisuke attempts two quads in his free skate (GPF), he scores around 90 on the program components. When he does just one quad like at the recent Worlds, his PC mark drops to 85 and when he has downgrades/multiple underrotation and a fall, he gets 82 or so from the judges. Isn't it interesting?
    Disappointing that is... I agree with the above about Ten seeming slow???

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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    I noticed something and I want to share it with you. When Daisuke attempts two quads in his free skate (GPF), he scores around 90 on the program components. When he does just one quad like at the recent Worlds, his PC mark drops to 85 and when he has downgrades/multiple underrotation and a fall, he gets 82 or so from the judges. Isn't it interesting?
    It is interesting, thank you for sharing. Maybe that happens because when Daisuke falls, his enthusiasm suffers? Some skaters fall but then still give energy to the remainder of their choreography. I think Daisuke lets his energy drop after he falls. Or maybe because if he lacks the energy to attempt 2 quads, he also lacks the energy to give his all to the choreography? YMMV.

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