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  1. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Who said I don't understand the arguments for Chan winning. I do, I disagree here. And here's something I'm going to say to you. You may think its no big deal that Patrick wins consistently with programs with multiple errors. Skating skills, etc. And the fact that it bothers a heck of a lot of people, but the fact it does. And there's an impression that it gives to an impression that it didn't matter how anybody skated, the judges were going to find a way for Chan to win. He's that favored.
    Well if you do understand why Chan won and your only disagreement is with the system, then there was no need to say that people who are defending the win are annoying.

    You know too, the fact is there a heck of lot of people thought the result was okay. Just because you keep going on about it is not going to change that fact either.

    Why don't you actually talk to some judges about what it is they like about Chan so much. I can tell you now it has nothing to do with Chan being favoured, it is they actually appreciate that he is a freakin fantastic skater who does have to the max what they want to see in skating. And that even when he makes mistakes, he is still one the best out there.

    But keep whipping the dead horse because it is demonstrating a degree of obsessive compulsiveness that is rare, even amongst the diehards.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  2. #262

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Well if you do understand why Chan won and your only disagreement is with the system, then there was no need to say that people who are defending the win are annoying.

    You know too, the fact is there a heck of lot of people thought the result was okay. Just because you keep going on about it is not going to change that fact either.

    Why don't you actually talk to some judges about what it is they like about Chan so much. I can tell you now it has nothing to do with Chan being favoured, it is they actually appreciate that he is a freakin fantastic skater who does have to the max what they want to see in skating. And that even when he makes mistakes, he is still one the best out there.

    But keep whipping the dead horse because it is demonstrating a degree of obsessive compulsiveness that is rare, even amongst the diehards.
    Where did I say Chan wasn't a fantastic skater. Where did I say he still wasn't one of the best, I think he deserved to be on the podium...

    I don't care what the judges like. I don't think its a good idea for anyone to win with that many mistakes.

    I disagree with the system, and those who defend the system.

    And what annoys me the most is those who defend the system saying only casual fans disagree.

    When you have World and Olympic champions, and former skaters criticizing the system for allowing folks to win with all these mistakes.

    What I think is this continues, skating will have a big Olympic scandal and get perhaps thrown of the Olympics.

    At the end of the day the system folks are defending so much pretty much leads to predetermined outcomes. Its problematic. Oh well though...
    Last edited by bek; 03-23-2013 at 03:08 AM.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    You know I am far more annoyed at people who keep on whipping the dead horse. You might be upset about the result but that is your perception. It does not mean you are right because there are many who understand why the result was the way it was. Time to suck it up princess because that is how it happened and how it is.
    Delicious. Just delicious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    The anomalies in the goe scores
    leave one scratching his or her head. One example, the goes for one skater's layback spin ranged from 0 to 3. Does that really make sense to any reasonable person.
    How is that different from a performance getting a set of second mark ranging from 4.9 to 5.4? GOEs and PCS at least have set criteria and are easier to understand.

    The random judging arrangement is bad whether under 6.0 or IJS. It's not the system's fault but how it is being run.

    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Well, if enough people voice their opinion against this current judging system (and result), perhaps some changes for the better will be made.
    Do people really just don't like the current judging system, or don't like this particular result because it doesn't conform with the ideal that likely would have been otherwise under a system they had been accustomed to and refused to move on from?

    My view is the old system is fine and the current system is fine. What isn't fine is the anonymous judging and the judges at times not scoring what they see or don't see. But this problem has been in skating since forever and is never going to be completed fixed in a judged sport.

    I agree with tweaking rules and values, but only to reflect the real reward of the quality or difficulty, not just 'so that the one who should have won the competition would win'.

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    If I look at Rogozine's protocol from Worlds and compare it with Verner's, I am tempted to think that the Czech federation is more powerful than the Canadian one.

    Rogozine jump content: 4T, 3A+3T+2T, 3S, 3Lz, 3A/3T, 3Lo, 3F - PC mark 68.22

    Verner jump content: 3T, 3F, 1A, 2A, 1Lo, 2F, 3F+SEQ, 1Lo - PC mark 72.58.

    Should a male skater with novice jump content score higher on the program components than a skater who does the quad and two triple axels?
    Yes, if he meets the criteria for Program Component Scores better than the other skater does.

    You do know that jump content is considered as part of the Total Element Score and not part of the Program Component Score, don't you?
    Last edited by Vagabond; 03-23-2013 at 03:13 AM.

  5. #265

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Where did I say Chan wasn't a fantastic skater. Where did I say he still wasn't one of the best, I think he deserved to be on the podium......
    Did I actually say anything about what you thought about Chan as a skater? No I didn't. So don't make issues out of things that were not even raised.

    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    And what annoys me the most is those who defend the system saying only casual fans disagree.
    Wait so it is not those that defend the system that annoy you but rather those who defend the system because it is about casual fans that annoy you? Can you please be specific because it is very annoying to those who are trying to make sense of what you are saying.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  6. #266

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Did I actually say anything about what you thought about Chan as a skater? No I didn't. So don't make issues out of things that were not even raised.


    Wait so it is not those that defend the system that annoy you but rather those who defend the system because it is about casual fans that annoy you? Can you please be specific because it is very annoying to those who are trying to make sense of what you are saying.
    What annoys me is that people who defend the system by saying only those who don't understand skating disagree. They insult anyone who thinks that Chan's type of win is a bad idea..

    The fact is there are a lot of former skaters, and former champions in this sport. Who have criticized people winning with multiple falls and mistakes. Plenty.

    So when people argue its just the casual fan that cares about people falling all over the place, isn't even correct.

    Its called building a "straw man". And its done all the time for those who want to support the system, or i.e their favorites winning by this system. In fact Chan added do it saying those criticizing don't understand skating. Really, Todd Eldridge knows nothing about skating. I've heard Michael Weiss complain in the past? He knows nothing to????

    There are enough experts complaining about this which makes me the non tech expert (at all) feeling pretty justified in being upset. And that's something I would really like those who support the system so much and argue its so wonderful. To really address; that even those who know quite a lot about skating, aren't to thrilled with this development.

    At the end of the day what I use to love is watching beautiful performances...Kim's program at Worlds epitomized it someone who was in complete control of every movement she did. It was fabulous and that's what really great skating is. She had plenty of difficulty. But it was actually difficulty that Kim could realistically do, elements, transitions, and choreography she actually mastered. And it was gorgeous to see. Its skates like that which make fans want to watch the sport...And say wow!

    Can we say the same about Chan? Was he control over his every movement.

    Its not watching skaters fall all over. Ten's program wasn't the best I ever seen but they were two beautiful skates. The guy didn't get a single negative GOE, in either program, and he had plenty of difficulty.

    To me the sport has to have both difficult and execution.

    I find it frustrating because I suspect if Patrick was ever hit hard PCS wise for multiple errors, he'd lighten his programs and start going a lot cleaner. And he'd be far more enjoyable to watch for the average folks.
    Last edited by bek; 03-23-2013 at 04:35 AM.

  7. #267
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    Some people really should get a hobby.

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by fscric View Post
    Some people really should get a hobby.
    Is this your hobby to write one line comments. Let them discuss about the scoring, hopefully all the criticism will lead to some constructive changes in the sport.

  9. #269
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    I think the CoP enthusiasts would have a better case if they just said forthrightly, OK, the IJS messed up this time. No system is perfect. But overall it's OK.

  10. #270

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post

    I don't care what the judges like.
    Then why are you complaining about what they decided?
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  11. #271

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think the CoP enthusiasts would have a better case if they just said forthrightly, OK, the IJS messed up this time. No system is perfect. But overall it's OK.
    Thinking that IJS messed up is again a matter of perception. If you had no problem with how the result panned out means you won't think that it is messed up.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    What annoys me is that people who defend the system by saying only those who don't understand skating disagree. They insult anyone who thinks that Chan's type of win is a bad idea..

    The fact is there are a lot of former skaters, and former champions in this sport. Who have criticized people winning with multiple falls and mistakes. Plenty.

    So when people argue its just the casual fan that cares about people falling all over the place, isn't even correct.

    Its called building a "straw man". And its done all the time for those who want to support the system, or i.e their favorites winning by this system. In fact Chan added do it saying those criticizing don't understand skating. Really, Todd Eldridge knows nothing about skating. I've heard Michael Weiss complain in the past? He knows nothing to????
    Of course Todd Eldredge knows a lot about figure skating, so does Michael Weiss. And so does Ryan Bradley who, from what I've heard, tweeted he thought Joubert should have won in London. As a figure skater himself, Bradley is an expert too and his opinion should also be considered. But I would have liked Todd to be more specific in his criticism, does he blame Chan's win on a flawed scoring system or does he think the system is actually okay but that the official judges from Worlds were a bunch of incompetent/corrupt people? At least Plushenko was loud and clear "It wasn't Chan who won the Championships, it was his federation"- read corruption, right? Btw, Plushenko with a bad landing and a hard fall on the 3A in the short program at 2013 Europeans beat a clean Voronov with a 4T/3T and 3A on the components mark by nearly five points, does Plushenko think he deserved that mark or was it corruption in his favor? The figure skating viewers really need all these clarifications from experts to be able to identify the source of the evil coz it can't be Patrick Chan, Chan just takes the ice and skates, the scores are totally out of his control.

    I'd also be curious to know the opinion of Todd - whom I respect very much for his achievements and his longevity as a competitor - about Ashley Wagner winning the national title this year with two bad falls in the free skate.



    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Yes, if he meets the criteria for Program Component Scores better than the other skater does.
    Oh, I see. Well, I noticed that Max Aaron met the criteria better than Verner and that Joubert met them almost as well as Takahashi - who said that Joubert is just a jumping bean?

    You do know that jump content is considered as part of the Total Element Score and not part of the Program Component Score, don't you?
    I do but thank you for reminding me.

  13. #273
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    I would like to know Kurt, Buttle etc.'s opinion for Chan's win (on which I agree).

  14. #274

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bek
    What annoys me is that people who defend the system by saying only those who don't understand skating disagree. They insult anyone who thinks that Chan's type of win is a bad idea..
    No one is insulting you. On the contrary, as far as I can read, it's the other way round. Most are not disputing that some may perceived Chan should not have won, what some people are trying to do including Chan himself is to explain that he was marked accordingly to the rules and he won. The people who disputed the win claimed the judges are corrupted, they are determined to give Chan the medal, Chan does not care to skate cleanly, Chan is arrogant .. IMO, these are unreasonable accusations. Fans can dispute the results but to go to the extent to throw accusations of corruption and collusion on the judges and the skater without proof is unfair. Some fans are passionate and that's fine but do it the reasonable way - write to your federation and asked them to change the rules to incorporate higher deductions on falls.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  15. #275

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    The world championship scoring has angered many around the world.
    And those who are now angry were happy when? The 2010 Olympics, with the uproar about Lysacek's lack of a quad? The year there a protest against the Israeli's won? The 2002 Olympics, with the scandal and double gold medal? The Olympics with the judge toe tapping scandal? The Olympics where Baiul beat Kerrigan?

    Seems to me that complaints and anger about judging biases and weaknesses are the norm in FS.

    The next Olympics are in Russia, and he stirring Russian media up one year before the games will severally help him.ISU can't afford to have another SLC like scandal, and if Russians feel the result was unjustified, the whole Russian media will do what US media did in SLC. Plushenko's comment was a hint in this direction to ISU...
    They won't do what the US media did in SLC unless another judge admits to cheating. If that hadn't happened, the SLC pairs event would soon have been forgotten although people would still have argued about it. Regardless of whether the original results seemed unfair to some, they but were not in themselves a scandal.

    I think US, Russia, Canada, Japan, China and Korea all know how to politic in ISU, and the strength of politicking has varied over the years
    And this surprises you?

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffClair1979 View Post
    Holy crap, well that escalated quickly.

    I think everyone needs a big, heaping dose of simmer the F down. Half of the posts in this thread are people screaming about like a madman/madwoman instead of thoughtful, factual posts.

    While I appreciate the passion, I (and I'm not speaking for everyone) would rather read concise and intelligent conversations than direct insults to people in every 4th post. You can disagree with someone without being an ass about it...

    I don't think Chan deserved the win, but I also don't blame him for it, nor do I blame Skate Canada. I blame the judges, and I blame IJS, and I blame the judges for manipulating the IJS. Just like the "jumps aren't everything" arguments, transitions and skating skills aren't everything either. I believe Denis Ten had a better combination of technical and artistry when spread between the short program and free skate than Chan did. Regardless, I congratulate Chan on his 3rd world title, and Ten on an amazing achievement. And I hope that the next champion doesn't have a shadow like this hanging over his gold medal.
    I'm with you on just about everything you've said here.

    Re: Todd's twitter comments, he basically said that he respects Patrick very much as a skater, but he felt a performance with so many falls shouldn't win over an almost flawless performance, or something to the effect that a performance with so many falls should not get as high marks. I'm paraphrasing what he said.

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by fscric View Post
    Some people really should get a hobby.
    Maybe skating is their hobby.

  18. #278

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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    No one is insulting you. On the contrary, as far as I can read, it's the other way round. Most are not disputing that some may perceived Chan should not have won, what some people are trying to do including Chan himself is to explain that he was marked accordingly to the rules and he won. The people who disputed the win claimed the judges are corrupted, they are determined to give Chan the medal, Chan does not care to skate cleanly, Chan is arrogant .. IMO, these are unreasonable accusations. Fans can dispute the results but to go to the extent to throw accusations of corruption and collusion on the judges and the skater without proof is unfair. Some fans are passionate and that's fine but do it the reasonable way - write to your federation and asked them to change the rules to incorporate higher deductions on falls.
    Its unreasonable to say there's corruption in this sport? Really?? Its completely ridiculous to think so because this sport has absolutely no history to back this up? And as for Chan not caring to skate cleanly, Chan himself goes on about how he can win with all kinds of falls. And to be quite frank, one's actions can at times tell the story. For example, if Chan actually did care about skating cleanly, he'd come up with programs that he could realistically skate.... Its pretty clear to me that Patrick is making a conscious choice to cram up his programs... His programs are jam packed with difficult transitions etc, and its clear he has difficulty doing it all. Its not ridiculous to think that maybe he has a habit of multiple mistakes in one program because perhaps two quads, and all of those transitions, along with the triple axel is too much for him.

    He gets high scores for having huge transitions, and he never gets hit hard for being sloppy, so why should he change?
    Last edited by bek; 03-23-2013 at 01:46 PM.

  19. #279
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    Its pretty clear to me that Patrick is making a conscious choice to cram up his programs... His programs are jam packed with difficult transitions etc, and its clear he has difficulty doing it all.
    Yes, once Chan's choreographers are done choreographing his pograms, Chan waits for them to leave the training rink and then adds a few more transitions to his programs all by himself.

  20. #280

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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Yes, once Chan's choreographers are done choreographing his pograms, Chan waits for them to leave the training rink and then adds a few more transitions to his programs all by himself.
    Doing a program in practice and doing it in competition are two different things. Its not like Patrick's poor free skate at worlds was some kind of one-off for him. Its rather what he normally does. And its not like its one mistake and everything else is great. I'm sorry I think its very fair to be asking these things in Patrick's case. And besides from what I understand not every skater trains run throughs. The issue isn't so much Chan not being able to do the moves in and of themselves as doing everything together. I don't know Chan's training system, whether its competition or nerves or the other one...

    V/T where also have issues being very messy in the GP. They were still winning everything, but they actually moved things around because they realized it wasn't working.

    Once again Patrick Chan fans keep on saying well he has so much complicated choreography, so much more difficult transitions, and he skates with such speed deep edges. And others just don't.

    What I'm saying is Patrick hasn't shown that he can actually handle all of that choreography and transitions because he's normally making multiple major errors. Also at times perhaps he's going way to fast, and that's leading to errors too.

    I'm sorry but I think its perfectly fair to ask why its a good idea for this sport to encourage folks to throw in difficulty they clearly can't handle. Chan's a gorgeous skater and his skating skills from what everyone saying is really the best in the world. When he skates well, I agree he's the best. But I don't think the direction IJS should go in is skaters being encouraged to have multiple falls in their programs.

    And I really think IJS is pretty much doing that when it rewards 6 points for quad falls, and gives skaters 9s in PCS for programs with multiple big errors, because that person had difficult choreography and transitions. Even if the entire program was not executed well.

    I do like a lot about IJS, and I don't want to see the sport to go back to 6.0 programs that in a lot of cases were nothing but jumps. I enjoy for example seeing skaters do more difficult footwork etc.

    But I think its ridiculous how IJS seems to according to its supporters but no value whatsoever on the skater going clean or even close to clean.. No value in my mind in good execution. I think its wrong and its making the sport hard to watch. There has to be a balance between execution and difficult programs.
    Last edited by bek; 03-23-2013 at 02:56 PM.

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