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  1. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    How do you know what they do or don't focus on? I think this is attributing motivations to skaters that they may not have, based on how well their style works for you. My memories of Stojko are by now pretty hazy, but Plushenko had some lovely programs in the past and both Joubert and Reynolds have tried to improve various aspects of their skating. Joubert did not skate a Flamenco SP and Beethoven LP two seasons ago, or try the Inception LP earlier this season, because he wanted to showcase his jumps. Reynolds' work with Shae-Lynn Bourne does not suggest to me a skater who doesn't want to improve his artistic expression; I find him greatly improved in that regard.

    Skating skills and transitions are not artistry; they can enable artistry if used correctly. And artistry is a very subjective thing - of your list, for instance, I don't feel that Chan and Hanyu are anywhere near Buttle and Takahashi at this point in their career. My reaction to Elegie was basically "Chan has a lovely program, well done him, but it would be nicer if Buttle skated it himself".
    Word! ITA...
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  2. #242

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    The funny thing is that I'm not even sure he actually said that. The quote only appeared in one report from the press conference, the context was never explained and some of the meaning may have been lost in translation. But that's neither here nor there.


    I'd rather have a few retro programs in the mix than watch everyone skate smart programs that tick off the required points and leave me cold. Few people know how to code-whore in an interesting way.
    Very true. Few people do know how to code whore in an interesting way. But code whoring for the sake of code whoring is considered superior to anything that is not code whoring? No it may be smarter but not better!

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    One expects to see some hometown favoritism, but it use to be that you still had to well skate decently.. The new system throws that out the window. I want to make clear with my snarky post before. I think Chan is a beautiful skater. But I don't enjoy watching any skater fall multiple times.

    I'm far more annoyed at the judges and the folks who are defending Chan's win. Than I'm at Chan. Although Chan making comments like Denis made as many mistakes as he did, doesn't endear me to him either.
    I agree! Exactly!

  4. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    I'm far more annoyed at the judges and the folks who are defending Chan's win. Than I'm at Chan.
    You know I am far more annoyed at people who keep on whipping the dead horse. You might be upset about the result but that is your perception. It does not mean you are right because there are many who understand why the result was the way it was. Time to suck it up princess because that is how it happened and how it is.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  5. #245
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    I doubt that many truly understand the reason the result was the way it was. Yes, most have the capacity to add the numbers given by the judges and see the result. But if one looks at the protocols, things become quite fuzzy and are far from reassuring that the outcome was right. The anomalies in the goe scores
    leave one scratching his or her head. One example, the goes for one skater's layback spin ranged from 0 to 3. Does that really make sense to any reasonable person. If the judges were random people selected from the audience with no judging experience or training, perhaps, . But these are trained and experienced judges and there is no way they could have seen things that differently based on the bullet points system. Sucking it up never changed anything and there are definitely some changes that need to made in this judging system, hopefully before the Olympics.

  6. #246

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    You know I am far more annoyed at people who keep on whipping the dead horse. You might be upset about the result but that is your perception. It does not mean you are right because there are many who understand why the result was the way it was. Time to suck it up princess because that is how it happened and how it is.
    Well, if enough people voice their opinion against this current judging system (and result), perhaps some changes for the better will be made.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  7. #247
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    plushyta:
    And when Plushenko did not deserve a medal? ... specifically, which competition?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Since you ask, I would have placed him 4th or 5th in Vancouver.
    Well, your personal desires are not counted



    Quote Originally Posted by just tuned in View Post
    This was rhetorical. About how Plushenko always thinks he is the best at everything. If he falls, it is okay because [insert Plushenko's reason here]!
    Your construction is impossible to discuss, because it is quite meaningless - none of us can not know what "he always thinks"

    " it is okay because" - Plushenko so rarely falls ..... but when that happened, he was losing without no hard feelings - for example, at Euros 2004 (when Joubert beat him)

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    What happened? I posted this:

    Well, this is matter of taste...If you mentioned Abbott I find him extremly boring...sorry, especially in this year. I'm sure if Plushenko wants to be like Abbott, he can be.

    I got a PM:
    Your posts are patronising and rude

    Oh really???? You can say every rude and unreal things about Plush..you can.. This is outrageously double standard...
    If you get a PM, reply by PM.
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

  9. #249

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    You know I am far more annoyed at people who keep on whipping the dead horse. You might be upset about the result but that is your perception. It does not mean you are right because there are many who understand why the result was the way it was. Time to suck it up princess because that is how it happened and how it is.
    Who said I don't understand the arguments for Chan winning. I do, I disagree here. And here's something I'm going to say to you. You may think its no big deal that Patrick wins consistently with programs with multiple errors. Skating skills, etc. And the fact that it bothers a heck of a lot of people, but the fact it does. And there's an impression that it gives to an impression that it didn't matter how anybody skated, the judges were going to find a way for Chan to win. He's that favored.

    Folks can say that Chan's the "best skater" than I say why are we having the competition? We are we bothering because very clearly the performance doesn't matter. However you may throw the audience off who asks questions about multiple falls scoring so high. However the fact of the matter is impressions count. And the impression that this sport is decided before the competition even beings, means that many may decided not to take up this sport at all. And go for a sport where their performance on the night of competition matters.

    The fact that it was someone from a very powerful federation, vs someone from a very small no powerful federation. Doesn't help at all in the impressions that it gives.

    I will say this. A lot of times Chan feels out of control very example people talk about his speed, but maybe in some of those jumps he's going TOO fast, shouldn't that matter? Shouldn't you have some control over your own power? These are I think fair questions.. But at the end of the day for one half of the score to not be based on actually performance at all, is a huge problem.

  10. #250

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    ^^ You are not making any sense - if Chan is best skater,there is no need to have any competitions? What has Chan explaining how he fell relates to the score. Yeah, some of you are not happy with the result because that is how the marks are allocated. Write to your own federation. Tell them to change the rules so that skaters who fall more than once cannot win anything. What I take issue is the constant bashing and insults thrown at a skater and judges who have done nothing wrong except to skate the best and judge what they see and according to the rules.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  11. #251

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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    ^^ You are not making any sense - if Chan is best skater,there is no need to have any competitions? What has Chan explaining how he fell relates to the score. Yeah, some of you are not happy with the result because that is how the marks are allocated. Write to your own federation. Tell them to change the rules so that skaters who fall more than once cannot win anything. What I take issue is the constant bashing and insults thrown at a skater and judges who have done nothing wrong except to skate the best and judge what they see and according to the rules.
    I'm saying that a lot of the arguments for Chan winning are well his program has the most transitions and has the best basic skating. And what I'm saying well these things don't really change? Shouldn't though how a person performs their program actually matter? Because right now with Chan's wins, one has to feel how Patrick performs his program matters very little.. I'm saying if we are just going to go with program and transitions, and your going to also hand out tons of points for falls, than why not just evaluate the program at practice and why bother even having the actual competition?

    Because in almost every sport how you actually preform on game day actually does matter. Yes this is a judged sport and its highly technical but to ignore major mistakes as nothing because the construction of the program is the best the basics is the best. Well it leads to the outcome being predetermined.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    I'm saying if we are just going to go with program and transitions, and your going to also hand out tons of points for falls
    Bek, this is ridiculous and I think you know it. Every skater in that competition - not just Chan - was evaluated on a lot more criteria than just "program and transitions". And no one was given "tons of points for falls".


    how you actually preform on game day actually does matter
    And just because you disagree with how the performance was evaluated and with the results of the competition does not mean that the judging system was fatally flawed, the judges were biased, there was home country advantage, etc. etc. etc.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  13. #253

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Bek, this is ridiculous and I think you know it. Every skater in that competition - not just Chan - was evaluated on a lot more criteria than just "program and transitions". And no one was given "tons of points for falls".




    And just because you disagree with how the performance was evaluated and with the results of the competition does not mean that the judging system was fatally flawed, the judges were biased, there was home country advantage, etc. etc. etc.
    The impression given Overedge is the impression given. And the impression given is Patrick will get high PCS no matter how many times he falls across the ice. Add in points for quad falls and the results is Patrick just about always wins. Who care for many watching Patrick fall several times isn't particularly pleasing..

    And it was similar with other PCS for example in 2010, Yu na was always getting higher PCS than Asada. And while in general Kim did seem (at least me to have the better program) I felt it was ridiculous that Kim got higher PCS than Asada at 2010 worlds free. Kim was sloppy and messy, she clearly didn't want to be there. I thought it was ridiculous Kim won the free there. It was like the performance that night didn't even matter. Sure Kim's PCS were lower than normal but I believe she even got higher or just about tied P/E than Asada.

    I'm sorry I just don't agree with half of the mark being pretty much static...And I back then was rooting for Kim over Asada but I liked and respected Asada enough that I didn't think Kim deserved to win when Asada skated lights out and Kim didn't. Thank goodness Asada had that lead in the short and still won.

    I'm sorry I don't agree with a system like this. It should be who has the best performance, and that include skills, that night.

    I disagree with V/T's GPF free skate win. Its not just about hating on Patrick. Unfortuantely Patrick gets these kind of wins far more than anyone else.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    And the impression given is Patrick will get high PCS no matter how many times he falls across the ice. Add in points for quad falls and the results is Patrick just about always wins.
    And that's your impression, which doesn't mean it's accurate.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  15. #255

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    And that's your impression, which doesn't mean it's accurate.
    It is what happens after all what people say is well he deserves those high PCS because his transitions this and that. And Patrick wins all the time with skates like that. So I'm sorry impression in Chan can pretty much do anything and win. now its changing a bit and a couple of "chosen few can maybe " if Chan is really bad and they are really good. Unfortunately for Denis Ten, he wasn't on the "chosen few list"..

    At least this time Chan didn't win the free, that one would have happened last year.

  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    And that's your impression, which doesn't mean it's accurate.
    It is not only his impression...
    All the time we discuss about this ..

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holley Calmes View Post
    I'm the first to adore most Russian skaters, but this is spot on. I think poor Plushy grew up very isolated from normal life, and I think he behaves often very childishly. I am not saying he is a bad person or eville or anything silly like that. I just think he can be very immature for someone his age and visibility in the world. I feel very sorry for him. After his skating life is done, I wonder how he will adjust? ....
    Many great athletes, artists, scientists ... after all, most devotees people to some field of human creativity, can not be compared to us, ordinary people - we're good at everything a little bit - they are excellent in their fields, but denied for childhood and other social skills... it is so common

    But do not worry for Plushy - he has a wife, children, his own ice show, engaged is in other sports - golf, paintball, motorcycles... enough money to start a business...

    ---------------------

    OFF Topic, if someone do not see it - Plushy's recent performance from his birthday show in November 2012 ... not too many jumps, but many other "elements"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXjjwMvOguM

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by nubka View Post
    Word! ITA...
    y es, Buttle would have skated that number better. Much more artistically. Love the Buttle Man.
    Last edited by stevlin; 03-23-2013 at 01:01 AM. Reason: misspelled

  19. #259

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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyta View Post
    Many great athletes, artists, scientists ... after all, most devotees people to some field of human creativity, can not be compared to us, ordinary people - we're good at everything a little bit - they are excellent in their fields, but denied for childhood and other social skills... it is so common

    But do not worry for Plushy - he has a wife, children, his own ice show, engaged is in other sports - golf, paintball, motorcycles... enough money to start a business...

    ---------------------

    OFF Topic, if someone do not see it - Plushy's recent performance from his birthday show in November 2012 ... not too many jumps, but many other "elements"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXjjwMvOguM
    Oh well - I'm not exactly losing any sleep about it.....but seriously, "having it all" does not necessarily guarantee happiness. But I do wish him well.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    The fact that it was someone from a very powerful federation, vs someone from a very small no powerful federation. Doesn't help at all in the impressions that it gives.

    I will say this. A lot of times Chan feels out of control very example people talk about his speed, but maybe in some of those jumps he's going TOO fast, shouldn't that matter? Shouldn't you have some control over your own power? These are I think fair questions.. But at the end of the day for one half of the score to not be based on actually performance at all, is a huge problem.
    If I look at Rogozine's protocol from Worlds and compare it with Verner's, I am tempted to think that the Czech federation is more powerful than the Canadian one.

    Rogozine jump content: 4T, 3A+3T+2T, 3S, 3Lz, 3A/3T, 3Lo, 3F - PC mark 68.22

    Verner jump content: 3T, 3F, 1A, 2A, 1Lo, 2F, 3F+SEQ, 1Lo - PC mark 72.58.

    Should a male skater with novice jump content score higher on the program components than a skater who does the quad and two triple axels?

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