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  1. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzisk8tr View Post
    If it's a sport where "first over the line" wins there will never be as many comments about who won. Because our sport is judged on "Artistic evaluations and choices" (two judges, one says I love how he does this and gives a 9, one say's I hate how he does this and gives a 7) you will never make everyone happy. As long as the win fits the rules of the day (which Patrick did) nothing can be done. In 50 years time people will still say Patrick Chan won three Golds at worlds (so far).
    Says you.

  2. #442

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Says you.
    You're right.
    I guess the hard thing for a lot of people to accept is why God would allow me to go running through their yards, yelling and spinning around.


  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    I disagree that Chan's performance was messy in terms of choreography or implying that falls on jumps = can't do choreography. Chan had mistakes on his jumps but the rest of his skating and his movements were complete and finished with refinements. Chan never seemed lost skating to the spirit of the program even with the jumping mistakes.


    Be real, he was behind the music and couldn't make anything out of the CH after the first fall. His real PE, IN, CH could be around 5-6

    Ten was smooth and refined, so real talent to shine for once! Good news Chan is not close to Denis Ten's natural talent when you watch them back to back. Yes, Ten was a bit slow but took time to show his greatness through CH and the talent!

  4. #444

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    The first in the line was after comments about how people can win in some sports while making mistakes. And what I'm saying is these people may make a small mistake but just have to beat the others in order to win. While in sports some famous players may get ref reptutation for the the NFL doesn't hand football player points before entering the field.

    So yes in basketball you may miss some baskets but you still have to hit more than the other team-every time.
    You can draw conclusions about FS from basketball and football?

    Yes skating is a subjective sport, but when Patrick falls twice, than makes two other major errors and scores in 89 in PCS for that mess. Very close to what he gets the few times he skates well. (And yes I'll say Patrick is normally making all kinds of mistakes)
    I come back to Petrenko's error-filled win at the '92 Olympics, which reminded me of Patrick's win at this Worlds. Then there was Baiul versus Kerrigan, another decision based on the 'superior artistry' argument?

    The fact of the matter is the issue is yes its a judged sport. But in most judged sports the athletes still have to perform well. If Shawn Johnson falls off the beam, she's not going to score close to what she'd score if she didn't fall of beam. Well Chan had multiple falls of beam and was barely hit at all.
    But FS is not gymnastics, either. Gymnastics exercises are much shorter in terms of time. You get two vault attempts, for example, which to me is something like two jump attempts in FS. Even the floor routines are much shorter than a long figure skating program. I'm certainly not a gymnastics expert, but it seems to me that artistry is more complicated to judge in FS.

    Its an issue. A huge one. The sport has to start making more penalties for errors-mandatory penalities. And nobody should be guaranteed super high scores on one half the mark before they step foot on the ice.
    As a judged sport with a degree of subjectivity, you're not going to make 100% of the audience happy 100% of the time. There has always been complaints about judging in FS, no? Has there ever been a time when the entire audience was satisfied with the results and the judging system had no critics?

  5. #445

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    You can draw conclusions about FS from basketball and football?



    I come back to Petrenko's error-filled win at the '92 Olympics, which reminded me of Patrick's win at this Worlds. Then there was Baiul versus Kerrigan, another decision based on the 'superior artistry' argument?



    But FS is not gymnastics, either. Gymnastics exercises are much shorter in terms of time. You get two vault attempts, for example, which to me is something like two jump attempts in FS. Even the floor routines are much shorter than a long figure skating program. I'm certainly not a gymnastics expert, but it seems to me that artistry is more complicated to judge in FS.



    As a judged sport with a degree of subjectivity, you're not going to make 100% of the audience happy 100% of the time. There has always been complaints about judging in FS, no? Has there ever been a time when the entire audience was satisfied with the results and the judging system had no critics?
    In gymnastics two vault attempts is for those who are looking for event finals in vault. And those two scores are averaged together. Cheng Fei and Maroney in the last two Olympics had start values on vault that was way higher than the rest which is why the fell in event finals and still medaled. However both would have won gold if they hadn't fell. The sport actually got concerned that both even medaled and so they have changed the way vaults are scored too so it would be harder for in a similar situation anyone to even medal.

    In gymnastics what remains pretty much stagant is base value. However nobody is guaranteed high execution scores. When Maroney fell on her vault, she kept her base value but got creamed on execution scores. The issue here is in skating people getting high execution scores in performance for a performance littered with major errors.

    Patrick's skate was much worse than the skate Peterenko pulled in the Olympics..He made far more mistakes than Petrenko did. Victor had one two hand downs and a popped triple axel... Chan had two falls, than a two hands down, and a double jump. Chan's free skate was one of the worst championship winning skates in recent memory

    Also Ten's program was much better than Pauls program. Paul had a lot of smaller mistakes in his program and his program was missing some things technically if I recall. Huge difference from Denis who had a quad and a triple axel/triple toe and another triple axel.

    Once again the difference between Petrenko's win and Paul's win is the judges actually gave Peterenko the win in the free skate and judged Peternko's free skate better than Paul's disagree if you may. Here the issue is that the judges agreed Denis Ten's free skate was better. But Denis lost because Chan got huge PCS. And the argument seems to be my many that Chan deserves these high PCS no matter what Chan actually does on the ice.

    I'm sorry but I take issue with someone being guaranteed close to 89 points on PCS before they every step foot on the ice. I think its hugely problematic . It becomes even worse of a problem when you consider that a fall is only a one point deduction when programs can score 170 points that's a slap on the wrist.

    As I mentioned in other judged sports falls are judged harsher. In gymnastics you lose a full point which is a far harsher penalty in their scoring system.
    Last edited by bek; 03-30-2013 at 01:26 PM.

  6. #446
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    bek, you never capitulate; I'll give you that.
    I hear outside a million panicking birds, and know even out there comfort is done with; it has shattered even the stars, this creature at last come home to me.

  7. #447

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    And if you beak those rules your disqualified. Huge difference.
    No. You were the one who brought up the analogy. If it's such a flawed one then why did you choose it as a comparison?
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  8. #448

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    No. You were the one who brought up the analogy. If it's such a flawed one then why did you choose it as a comparison?
    I didn't start the analogy. It was others who said you can make a mistake and still win in swimming...

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