Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 83
  1. #61

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    California,
    Posts
    1,309
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1239
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    IOW, term limits in figure skating is unlikely to ever happen.

    Can you explain why Mr. Cinquanta has been able to maintain such a stranglehold on the seat of power for so long??? The management of speed skating and figure skating should be separated. They are distinct and separate sports and should not be lumped together, with revenue from figure skating supporting speed skating. But the status quo will likely continue especially after the strategically ill-planned revolt against the ISU was so effectively quashed in 2003.
    The actual mangement of the ISU is clearly divided, with the direct management of Speed Skating and Figure Skating being under the two Vice Presidents. At the Congress the two section meetings are conducted separately and the decision made by each section are brough back to the Federation Delegates for ratification. The final say fof all Congress proposals rests with the Federation.

    The ISU President and all elected members of the ISU can be replaced by a vote of the Delegates sent to the Congress by each Member Federation. The revolt as mentioned was not a revolt is was and attempt to replace the ISU rather than replace management. As it turned out it was a mistake. Several well respected and competent Officials were lead down the path the destroyed their ability to serve the sport.
    Morry Stillwell

  2. #62

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    California,
    Posts
    1,309
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1239
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    That wasn't very respectful of them. They have known well in advance the date of worlds and should have scheduled so he could have attended what for him should have been one of the most important events of the year.
    And watching over Skating's interests for the Olympics is not important?
    Morry Stillwell

  3. #63

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Thankfukky watching skating
    Posts
    13,643
    vCash
    317
    Rep Power
    41192
    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    The actual mangement of the ISU is clearly divided, with the direct management of Speed Skating and Figure Skating being under the two Vice Presidents. At the Congress the two section meetings are conducted separately and the decision made by each section are brough back to the Federation Delegates for ratification. The final say fof all Congress proposals rests with the Federation.

    The ISU President and all elected members of the ISU can be replaced by a vote of the Delegates sent to the Congress by each Member Federation. The revolt as mentioned was not a revolt is was and attempt to replace the ISU rather than replace management. As it turned out it was a mistake. Several well respected and competent Officials were lead down the path the destroyed their ability to serve the sport.
    You answered the question about management but you did not address the issue of the money. FS should not be subsidizing speed skating and visa versa (as if). Why did FS every allow this to happen & why hasn't the various federations, esp the big feds, put a stop to it?

    There is no good reason for it to have ever happened. It would make as much sense to subsidize hockey - after all, hockey is played on skates.

  4. #64

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    California,
    Posts
    1,309
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1239
    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    You answered the question about management but you did not address the issue of the money. FS should not be subsidizing speed skating and visa versa (as if). Why did FS every allow this to happen & why hasn't the various federations, esp the big feds, put a stop to it?

    There is no good reason for it to have ever happened. It would make as much sense to subsidize hockey - after all, hockey is played on skates.
    I am not sure if we are dealing with a time warp here or a troll. Finances for skating are very dear to my heart as the US and Canada lead the way for TV rights fees in the 90s. ABC paid US Figure Skating a total of 112 Million dollars for the rights to figure skating events. The ISU made like deals. Now for today. There are no more rights fees. It is cheaper to do a reality show and pay a winner one million dollars than a figure skating event. In fact it is cheaper to do a speed skating event than figure skating. There are less cameras and crew needed. The result is that in many countries , speed skating is better for the TV bottom line.

    Now lets look at support from the ISU. The ISU directly suports and conducts more Figure Skating events than it does Speed Skating.

    Financials do not support the belief that Figure Skating provides the income to conduct Speed Skating events.
    Morry Stillwell

  5. #65
    Corgi Wrangler
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Not Wearing Enough Sparkles
    Posts
    6,454
    vCash
    510
    Rep Power
    5546
    It still doesn't explain why they're the same federation (which has allowed Cinquanta, who isn't truly a figure-skating person, to be in control of figure skating against its best interests). Why not include hockey, too? Everyone in all three sports skates and there's a lot more venue overlap between hockey and figure. Heck, curling shares the use of ice...

  6. #66

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    53
    Posts
    10,451
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    20970
    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    It still doesn't explain why they're the same federation (which has allowed Cinquanta, who isn't truly a figure-skating person, to be in control of figure skating against its best interests).
    The answer to that goes back to 1892 when the ISU was first founded, at which time speedskating was a more mature sport than figure skating. E.g., Axel Paulsen was primarily a speedskater.

    So at any time in the intervening century-plus figure skating could have determined that it needed its own federation and separated from the ISU. But in general inertia wins out and it was easier to continue the status quo.

    Except for that one attempt in 2003, which not only wanted to separate from the ISU but also consisted of some political factions within the figure skating branch wanting to distance themselves from other factions.

    I think in order to succeed, such a secession would need support from all the national figure skating federations.

    Of course, some national federations also combine speedskating and figure skating into a single federation -- and a few cover other winter sports as well. So they're less likely to support a split.

  7. #67
    Banned Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    forever wishing i had access to the crack TAT smoked when she said D/W should've won 2012 worlds ;)
    Posts
    420
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    " the ice dance final at the Worlds in London: the audience – a Canadian audience this time – felt that Virtue and Moir did everything in order to keep their World title; according to the scores, they didn’t."
    finally
    if only this came from an authoritative source

  8. #68

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    California,
    Posts
    1,309
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1239
    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    It still doesn't explain why they're the same federation (which has allowed Cinquanta, who isn't truly a figure-skating person, to be in control of figure skating against its best interests). Why not include hockey, too? Everyone in all three sports skates and there's a lot more venue overlap between hockey and figure. Heck, curling shares the use of ice...
    This answers the question in my last post, Time warp or Troll.
    Morry Stillwell

  9. #69

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Thankfukky watching skating
    Posts
    13,643
    vCash
    317
    Rep Power
    41192
    I don't know what attribute you think your rudeness enhances.

  10. #70
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,465
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    And watching over Skating's interests for the Olympics is not important?
    I don't think I said or even implied that. Of course, it is important, but it hardly seems like a monumental problem to schedule things so that both events could have been attended.

  11. #71

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    West of the 5th...
    Posts
    29,316
    vCash
    100
    Rep Power
    41498
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    The answer to that goes back to 1892 when the ISU was first founded, at which time speedskating was a more mature sport than figure skating. E.g., Axel Paulsen was primarily a speedskater.

    So at any time in the intervening century-plus figure skating could have determined that it needed its own federation and separated from the ISU. But in general inertia wins out and it was easier to continue the status quo.

    Except for that one attempt in 2003, which not only wanted to separate from the ISU but also consisted of some political factions within the figure skating branch wanting to distance themselves from other factions.

    I think in order to succeed, such a secession would need support from all the national figure skating federations.

    Of course, some national federations also combine speedskating and figure skating into a single federation -- and a few cover other winter sports as well. So they're less likely to support a split.
    Several years ago, I went through the list of federations and the majority of them combined speedskating and figure skating into a single federation. I haven't checked in the past few years so I don't know if that dynamic has changed.

    What I *am* curious about is the claim made by several people that figure skating subsidizes speed skating. I really have no idea if that's true or not. Has anyone seen financial statements from the ISU to say one way or the other?
    Haunting the Princess of Pink since 20/07/11...

  12. #72

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Gwyneth Paltrow Fan Club headquarters
    Posts
    17,265
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    29999
    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    And watching over Skating's interests for the Olympics is not important?
    Is Cinquanta the only person in the ISU capable of making Olympic site visits, or qualified to do so? I sincerely hope not - otherwise the ISU has some big problems.

    I agree with Iceman. Missing the world championships in a sport which you preside over is inexcusable.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  13. #73

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    California,
    Posts
    1,309
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1239
    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Is Cinquanta the only person in the ISU capable of making Olympic site visits, or qualified to do so? I sincerely hope not - otherwise the ISU has some big problems.

    I agree with Iceman. Missing the world championships in a sport which you preside over is inexcusable.
    Mr. Cinquanta is on the International Olympic Committee and, as such, he is the only person that could represent Figure Skating (and pardon me, Speed Skating) at the Olympic site.

    David Dore, ISU First Vice President is capable of, and did represent the ISU in his home country very well. Now just how did Mr. Cinquanta's absence hurt Worlds?
    Morry Stillwell

  14. #74

    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    2,218
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    5633
    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    Now just how did Mr. Cinquanta's absence hurt Worlds?
    Mr. Cinquanta not showing up at Worlds, the premiere and most important figure skating event of the season and year, certainly suggests a lack of interest in a sport that is currently hurting for positive attention and promotion.

    That's how I see it anyway, and I suspect I am not alone in my opinion.

    O-

  15. #75

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Gwyneth Paltrow Fan Club headquarters
    Posts
    17,265
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    29999
    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    Mr. Cinquanta is on the International Olympic Committee and, as such, he is the only person that could represent Figure Skating (and pardon me, Speed Skating) at the Olympic site.
    So only one person from each Olympic sport is able to make site visits? That's incredibly poor organization and/or lack of delegation on the part of either the ISU or the IOC.

    David Dore, ISU First Vice President is capable of, and did represent the ISU in his home country very well. Now just how did Mr. Cinquanta's absence hurt Worlds?
    It certainly doesn't look very supportive of the event or of the athletes or the hosts. I'm finding it hard to imagine why Cinquanta's visit was so absolutely crucial to the Olympic construction on those particular days that he could not have visited Sochi before or after Worlds.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  16. #76

    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Vancouver Canada
    Age
    55
    Posts
    12,706
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    11163
    Quote Originally Posted by theshrew View Post
    You do not need superior maths skills to realize how much easier is to cheat now.
    Under 6.0 the judges had only two scores which they could manipulate, but now the possibilities are countless.
    But the process is far more complicated and there are lot more numbers to crunch, plus two panels. Do you think the judges make up the scores in advance and memorize them? That is way too difficult to coordinate to ensure a rank order for a number of skaters on a given day. Sure, judges will have an idea of a skater's PCS before they skate, but that is no different than preconceptions in the 6.0 system artistry mark.

    If one judge wants to manipulate the results, s/he can systematically give the favored skater(s) slightly higher scores than s/he thinks they really deserve, and can systematically give slightly lower scores to the expected rivals. They can't use numbers that are too far above or below the rest of the panel, though, because if their scores are consistently dropped in the trimming of high and low they will not have much effect and will also get flagged as out of line. But if they're consistently on the high end of the legitimate range for the favored skater and consistently on the low end for the rivals, even if their scores are trimmed that means some other judge's high and low scores, respectively, will not get trimmed and will count. Essentially a judge on a 9-judge panel can force GOEs up or down by about 1/7 of a point per element, and components up or down maybe a 1/7 of a point but probably a little less (doubled in the freeskate) for each component. So if they do this systematically it can add up to several points and can decide a close contest.

    If two or more judges work together to manipulate scores in a coordinated manner, they can be even more effective.
    Again, working together in a coordinated manner to ensure a certain result is pretty much impossible IMO. Results vary from competition to competition and tiny point differences add up to make a difference. To manipulate the scores perfectly, judges would have to be doing the math for both tech and PCS as the event takes place. I don't see where they have time for that.
    Last edited by Japanfan; 03-27-2013 at 12:17 AM.

  17. #77

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    California,
    Posts
    1,309
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1239
    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    But the process is far more complicated and there are lot more numbers to crunch, plus two panels. Do you think the judges make up the scores in advance and memorize them? That is way too difficult to coordinate to ensure a rank order for a number of skaters on a given day. Sure, judges will have an idea of a skater's PCS before they skate, but that is no different than preconceptions in the 6.0 system artistry mark.



    Again, working together in a coordinated manner to ensure a certain result is pretty much impossible IMO. Results vary from competition to competition and tiny point differences add up to make a difference. To manipulate the scores perfectly, judges would have to be doing the math for both tech and PCS as the event takes place. I don't see where they have time for that.
    Japan fan has given a very thoughtful and insightful of the process as it is today. It is my joy to regularly judge events in the US using IJS. The thing that strikes me is that at the end of a large event most of us have no idea of where we placed a skater. This is especially true when using the computer entry system. The plus side of this is that at the end of an event you do not have explain to a parent why you placed his Daughter 10th instead of 5th.
    Morry Stillwell

  18. #78

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    California,
    Posts
    1,309
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1239
    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    So only one person from each Olympic sport is able to make site visits? That's incredibly poor organization and/or lack of delegation on the part of either the ISU or the IOC.



    It certainly doesn't look very supportive of the event or of the athletes or the hosts. I'm finding it hard to imagine why Cinquanta's visit was so absolutely crucial to the Olympic construction on those particular days that he could not have visited Sochi before or after Worlds.
    Look, I now realize that this is bash Cinquanta thread, so let me say, you win. It is useless to present information on how the organization really works.
    Morry Stillwell

  19. #79

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Gwyneth Paltrow Fan Club headquarters
    Posts
    17,265
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    29999
    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    Look, I now realize that this is bash Cinquanta thread, so let me say, you win. It is useless to present information on how the organization really works.
    I asked you two questions which are straightforward. First, why is Cinquanta the only ISU person who can visit the Olympic sites? It is not "Cinquanta bashing" to ask this. I'm sure there are many other organizations in the world who would consider it bad management practice to have site responsibility for such a major event rest solely with one person (if for no other reason that the organization would have huge problems if that person was suddenly unable to do that job).

    And second, what was so important about him having to visit on those particular dates that he could not go to Worlds? I am sure you recognize the symbolic importance of a sport federation president attending his sport's annual world championship. Sending a representative in his place does not look very supportive. I don't see why his trip to Sochi, if indeed he was the only person who could go, could not have been delayed or moved ahead by a few days so that he could attend Worlds.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  20. #80
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,340
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    This answers the question in my last post, Time warp or Troll.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    Look, I now realize that this is bash Cinquanta thread, so let me say, you win. It is useless to present information on how the organization really works.

    Mr. Stillwell, there are probably many fans who appreciate your sharing insider information as well as your personal viewpoints, so thanks. OTOH, what’s the point of calling posters trolls because they are asking questions which you are unable or unwilling to answer, or prefer were not asked?

    There’s surely a lot that many of us fans don’t know and don’t understand about what goes on behind-the-scenes in figure skating. Obviously, there are many complicated problems existing in figure skating which do not have easy answers. But with all due respect, I doubt anyone can seriously argue that the management of the ISU is squeaky clean, A-okay and above being criticized. If nothing else, Sonia Bianchetti Garbato’s revealing, if poorly written book, Cracked Ice, shed light on some of the problems regarding “management” of the ISU. Ms. Garbato told her story from her vantage point and apparently she was involved in a power struggle which she ultimately lost.

    That Mr. Cinquanta has remained at the top position of the ISU for so long shows that he wields a great deal of power. Under his tenure, the sport of figure skating has deteriorated. This is due to a number of factors, but IMO some of those factors seem to include a combination of ineptitude, poor judgment, lack of vision, lack of knowledge, and blind power-mongering. The bottom line: it’s past time for the sport of figure skating to be unshackled. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    This thread is not about "bashing" Cinquanta. Its about fans asking questions about a sport that we love. Its about fans trying to get Cinquanta's and the ISU's attention. But clearly neither fans nor skaters actually count in any of what goes on in terms of "ISU management" directives. What's useless is everyone keeping their heads buried in the sand and making excuses for the current state of affairs that exist in figure skating.

    BTW, this isn't a contest and there are NO WINNERS.

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •