Page 4 of 28 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 542
  1. #61
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Two-foot skating = BAD
    Posts
    20,463
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    There is one aspect of the jumps that the 6.0 system hardly ever penalised: Underrotated jumps were usually considered successful if landed. Sarah Hughes won the olympic gold with a whole bunch of severely underrotated triples that would be called as doubles today. With the CoP underrotating jumps by more than half a rotation is a very costly mistake.
    As well as egregious flutzes which Hughes would have got penalised for as well, today.

    We also had Yukina Ota win Junior World Championships not having rotated a single triple jump.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    Who is in charge of the marketing for figure skating? Audiences today will watch anything (kardashians, honey boo boo) and i refuse to believe that western audiences wouldn't watch if it marketed to them correctly.
    Nobody, really. That's exactly the problem. ISU is run by people who are completely out of touch with the world today and who don't seem to hire anybody to do the PR work. As long as you give casual viewers drama, they won't care about the scoring system much.

  2. #62
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    3,423
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    2) It's another example of memory reconstructing the past. Such results used to happen all the time under the old judging system. I cried all day after Gusmeroli was 4th at 2000 Europeans, having skating a beautiful and clean free program
    That's an interesting example where factored placements allowed a skater (Victoria Volchkova) to retain a medal despite not placing top 3 in the Free Skate, though the gap between the 3rd (Gusmeroli) and 4th place (Volchkova) freeskates was possibly wide enough that a points-based total format would have allowed Gusmeroli to overtake Volchkova for bronze overall.

  3. #63
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    820
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I like Brennan's point. 6.0 was soap opera. IJS is an accountant's convention.

    To the great unwashed masses, soap operas are more fun.

    The ISU has made its choice and now must live with the consequences.

  4. #64
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    2,410
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I think she has a point about skating dying in the US although I don't buy her premise: I remember the casual fan being just as confused about the the 6.0 system (and how it was awarded) as what we have now. I think the system is a bit more fair now. It was shocking to see such a small venue with empty seats during this competition. And I too saw the competition because Latvia carried it. That it wasn't on a US network especially since we are a year from the Olympics says a lot about the state of this sport here. That Canada couldn't sell out a 7000 seat arena astounds me.

  5. #65
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    On the run from cholla's vibrating cleavage
    Posts
    6,127
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    This article talks about some of the controversies in skating and other judges Olympic sports before the SLC Olys: http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports...2/johv8n2i.pdf
    The author must be a casual fan First, it is stated that O'Connor/Millns won the bronze in 1976 while being the only couple to threaten the monopoly of the Soviet "theatrical" style. Then the 1980s controversy is described as "upbeat" style of R/S vs. "sedate, traditional Soviet style". The funniest thing is that both times it was Linichuk/Karponosov
    Also, loved that "a gangster and his molt" typo re the Duchesnays OSP in 1988

  6. #66
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    1,125
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I like Brennan's point. 6.0 was soap opera. IJS is an accountant's convention.
    That's part of the problem, but not the whole problem. There could be ways that IJS could be made more relevant (and interesting) to audiences but they all involve things that ISU doesn't want to do because they'll expose the judigng to too much scrutiny.

    The two big flaws for me are levels (I really, really, hate levels) and PCs which are almost half the score and don't make any sense to me.

    I'll still say it ; 2002 destroyed the (very fragile!) faith the audience had in judging and IJS does _nothing_ to restore that faith. It's a little bit like if the Tour de France responded to riders doping by vowing to make it harder to administer drug tests.

  7. #67
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    In the mountains, where hippies and hillbillies collide!
    Posts
    6,658
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Well I know for myself that I've literally only watched Kostner's performances from this years Worlds - no one else at all. At all. Pre-CoP that would have never happened...

  8. #68
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    99
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Taso View Post
    Well I know for myself that I've literally only watched Kostner's performances from this years Worlds - no one else at all. At all. Pre-CoP that would have never happened...
    That is no one else's fault but yours.

  9. #69
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    On the run from cholla's vibrating cleavage
    Posts
    6,127
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    As long as you give casual viewers drama, they won't care about the scoring system much.
    It's not ISU's fault that the current crop of skaters is unable to produce any drama The closest we've got to a full-scale drama recently was the Zoueva-Shpilband split. Coaches are more drama-worthy these days than skaters. Coaches were good at overdrama too in the golden years of 6.0. The Three Wicked Witches of the Soviet ice dancing aka Tchaikovskaia, Tarasova and Dubova have never been surpassed But skaters never failed to deliver either.

  10. #70
    Shadow dancing
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    A small camper in the woods.
    Posts
    16,354
    vCash
    800
    Rep Power
    25028
    Quote Originally Posted by Cachoo View Post
    That Canada couldn't sell out a 7000 seat arena astounds me.
    Some of that was the price tag. I would have loved to go and catch an event or two (I'm a few hours drive from London), but not for $150-$200 each! I can't believe that any casual fan would have gone at all, unless they got their tickets through a corporate sponsorship.

    Regarding US tv coverage, Universal Sports did have good coverage, especially compared to the ESPN days. It's unfortunate that Universal isn't available to most people. Plus, at least on Direct TV, it's channel number is so high (in the 600's) that it is unlikely that people who pay for the sports pack and are surfing manage to get that far before they find something else to watch. ESPN, on the other hand, is in the low 200's on Direct TV, so it was far easier to stop there if you are channel surfing. In other words, the casual fan didn't have a good chance to find it this year.

  11. #71
    Internet Beyotch
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    15,808
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    23556
    Quote Originally Posted by DBZ View Post
    I think she has a valid point. Skating is dying, at least to the layman fan.

    And it's not just Brennan saying so. Fleets of coaches, commentators, media and press, not to mention past and current skaters alike, all blame the new judging system as the primary cause for skating's chronic decline.
    Lots of people are saying that evolution isn't true either. That doesn't mean they are right. People have a right to their opinions but people saying things doesn't make them true even lots of people are saying things even them saying them over and over and over.

    IMO skating isn't dying AT ALL. Skating is alive and well. It's not alive and well in the US on network TV. But US network tv isn't the be all and end all of the universe. It's alive and well in rinks all over the US and in Japan and China and Russia and other countries. It's alive and well on TV in those other countries. It's alive and well on the internet which is the be all and end of all the universe these days and into the future. Heck, Latvia showed the entire World championships LIVE as they happened. How many skating skaters does Latvia have? But obviously they thought someone would be interested enough in the event to do that.

    Say what you will about the 6.0 system, but despite all its flaws and all the wuzrobbing back in the day, the casual fans always came back to watch. I don't think they're coming back now.
    There is no evidence to support this statement. Ratings went down under 6.0. They didn't go down only when IJS was introduced. They were already going down. Since IJS was introduced, we have no idea if they would have gone back up but I doubt it.

    They went back up in other countries where the new scoring system was embraced and fans were educated in it and the commentators didn't whine about it for almost a decade later as if it was still an upstart that was going to go away if they closed their eyes and held their breath. So I bet they would have gone back up in the US too under different circumstances. But we don't know so it's all supposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    I was talking about staying up late watching worlds the other day with my old roomie, who is not a skating fan, and has only ever watched skating when she lived with me and i made her watch with me. She said that she felt that is just not exciting now, "not like back when it was all about Kwan and Cohen". Maybe casual fans do find it hard to relate to the new stars (for what ever reason).
    No, most old people have trouble. People cling to the past and hate change mostly. I think this is part of why team sports are popular in the US. You can root for the same team for years and year and year. Yes, the players change but it's still the Buffalo Bills! But figure skating isn't like that. New stars have to be created. Which means older fans sometimes lose interest because they can't shift gears.

    Then they whine about how it's skating's fault and how much better it was in the old days -- the old days they complain bitterly about at the time.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  12. #72
    podcast mistress
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Ready to interview Uncle Dickie at any time.
    Posts
    7,823
    vCash
    2367
    Rep Power
    4368
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    There's a lot of research that shows that human memory reconfigures the past rather than recording it. Its remarkable what people "remember" about skating under the old judging system. Someone should do some research so we don't have to rely on memory--maybe its my memory that is faulty but I think it would turn up almost constant complaints about the judging being corrupt (find some old US broadcasts from the 1980s with Dick Button raving on and on about the block judging in favor of Soviet skaters).

    The ranting and raving about every result that was disagreed with by enough people is what ended up with SLC and that insanity. And the new judging system. But figure skating keeps taking hits every time people scream about a result as if it were not just what is inevitably going to happen in a subjectively judged sport but an injustice that deserves world wide concern.

    IF people want to promote the sport and have it be more popular in the US and any other countries where it may not be as popular as people wish, celebrate the sport! Worlds was a magnificent display of figure skating and ice dance! Tearing the sport down is hardly going to bring it up. And it will do the skaters no good to be convinced its not their skating that determines their placements. Then they don't improve their skating they end up bitter and sad.

    Chan won. Sure its arguable. Judging is subjective. Let's not take the whole sport down again.

    If people saw skating on TV and weren't taken with it, its because they just aren't into it! People in the skating world need to stop tearing their hair out over this. Celebrate the sport, spread the joy of watching. That's the only way to generate interest.

    Sour grapes and ramped up screaming controversy might get people to read your articles but they don't promote the sport.
    Well said BR!!

    And I am one of those that think the decline of fans was inevitable as the internet and new media have given people more options. THe overall pool has been diluted. Does that mean we shouldn't stop being frustrated that skating isn't shown on major networks? No, not at all. And yes I agree that IJS can be frustrating. But I am more frustrated by the fact that the major networks keep hiring commentators who can't explain it at all to the public.
    In my spare time, I like to interview figure skating legends.

  13. #73
    Internet Beyotch
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    15,808
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    23556
    I would also like to point out that we live in a time when Monday Night Football is no longer shown on Network TV. Monday Night Football! A staple of my childhood! When it moved to cable, people acted like the world was ending. American football still seems pretty popular though and still makes buckets of money. They survived in this new era of the internet and 1000 cable channels yet nothing's on and skating will too if it plays it's cards right (which so far, amazingly enough to me at least, it has).
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  14. #74
    AYS's snark-sponge
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    in the Bobrova & Soloviev Fan Clubhouse
    Posts
    41,891
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    30529
    I'm hearing a lot of people saying how mythical casual fans react to stuff in skating. How about some real experiences here?

    I'll give you one anecdote. I loved skating in the 80s. Used to go to all the World Pros events at the Capital Center. I quit watching skating around 1990 because I was SICK TO DEATH of all the controversies over judging; all the US commentators moaning about every time a Soviet Block skater won that it wasn't fair. I didn't watch skating all through the 90s, Michelle Kwan or not. And soap opera stories did not draw me back in.

    What drew me back in was loving to watch actual figure skating. Its both beautiful and exciting. If figure skating can't sell itself to people as beautiful and exciting, it won't matter what judging system there is or how its tweaked or who understands it and who doesn't.

    Either people enjoy watching figure skating or people don't.

    A similiar situation though not a sport is opera. I love opera. There's no way on earth I can get my friends who don't like it to watch it. Figure skating is the same. If its not interesting to you, you aren't going to watch.

    Now are there more people who might like it out there? Sure! So how do you get them? By endless virtual fist-fights over results and endless discussions of judging? Or by promoting what is great about figure skating?
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  15. #75
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    820
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Yes, it was Jan Hoffman who was inexplicably blamed for that. Why, I don't know since he was only one of the majority and it's not like he entered his score after all the others did. What made HIM the one who made the final choice?
    Entering the competition it was a foregone conclusion that regardless of the skating the four eastern bloc judges (Poland, China, Czech Republic, and Ukraine) would vote for Oksana, and the four western bloc judges (U.S.A., Canada, Great Britain , and Japan) would vote for Kerrigan.

    The only vote that was is doubt was Hoffmann's. Even though Hoffmann represented East Germany, he was known as a conscientious and independent judge who did not always toe the cold war line. So it really was Hoffmann's vote that decided the issue.

  16. #76
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    18
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I have been at competitions that were said to be a sell-out and there were empty seats. Months before the event you can buy all-event ticket packages which allow entry to **all** the events. Single event tickets go on sale much later. I have often wondered if fans buy the all-event tickets to get the best seat selection, knowing full well they will not be using all the tickets. Too bad there wasn't a way to turn in those tickets for resale by the organization. Perhaps there is and I am not aware of it; someone correct me if I am wrong. Scalping (reselling, usually outside the doors and at a higher price than the purchase price..... well, that's something else again.
    Perhaps this event was a sell-out and it just didn't show on TV.

  17. #77
    AYS's snark-sponge
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    in the Bobrova & Soloviev Fan Clubhouse
    Posts
    41,891
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    30529
    Quote Originally Posted by Taso View Post
    Well I know for myself that I've literally only watched Kostner's performances from this years Worlds - no one else at all. At all. Pre-CoP that would have never happened...
    Hey Taso, remember when Andrey had that graemlin for you of the ship going down?
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  18. #78

    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Walking to Work
    Posts
    25,842
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    32560
    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    There is one aspect of the jumps that the 6.0 system hardly ever penalised: Underrotated jumps were usually considered successful if landed. Sarah Hughes won the olympic gold with a whole bunch of severely underrotated triples that would be called as doubles today. With the CoP underrotating jumps by more than half a rotation is a very costly mistake.
    Tell that to Amber Corwin. Under the old system, she was constantly dinged for her underrotated jumps.

  19. #79
    AYS's snark-sponge
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    in the Bobrova & Soloviev Fan Clubhouse
    Posts
    41,891
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    30529
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex View Post
    Tell that to Amber Corwin. Under the old system, she was constantly dinged for her underrotated jumps.
    How do you know she was?
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  20. #80

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    being a grumpy penguin
    Age
    31
    Posts
    2,908
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    5059
    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    As the majority of the panel did. How many others can bek name who had to stand behind their judging on that occasion?

    Never mind, I will answer for bek--none! Because none of them had to answer for anything!
    Even judges who were blatantly caught cheating would quietly go away for a couple of years and then come back--and the all-important casual fans knew nothing about about it because they were casual fans and didn't know the judges!

    Not that it mattered. The Russkies were all crooked anyway.
    Heh, not quite true. Marina Sania of RUS , and Vladislav Petschukov of UKR gave interviews on ABC during worlds that season explaining their ordinals. Jiasheng Yang of China gave a detailed interview on Chinese television doing the same thing during worlds that season. What's more is during the review meeting after the freeskate, Ron Pfenning reportedly started arguing with the judges he didn't agree with and demanded their explainations.
    Last edited by escaflowne9282; 03-18-2013 at 04:13 PM.

Page 4 of 28 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •