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  1. #281
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    You can pretty much add the following clause to the end of that paragraph by Christine Brennan, "because it wanted to be a sport."

    Brennan's own statement in that paragraph that IJS has "produced some fairer results" ties into that.

    Meanwhile just for me personally, the last thing on earth I'd want to see is skating be run like a reality show. Gag me.
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  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    Who said it? No one. Here is exactly what Christine Brennan said:

    "In response, they shelved the sport's immensely popular but flawed 6.0 scoring system for an anonymous points-based system that few truly understand to this day. Even though it has produced some fairer results, this was a huge marketing mistake. The 6.0 system was reality TV before there was reality TV. It was Dancing with the Stars before anyone ever heard of the show, with the flags of the judges' countries and their scores superimposed over the skater watching in the aptly named "Kiss and Cry" area. Every TV show on earth wanted what skating had, and skating gave it all away."

    Her article is what started this thread. She doesn't say DWTS is based on figure skating or 6.0. You are reading way too much into what was intended just to be an interesting observation.
    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    No one said it is. What Christine Brennan said in her article--which is what started this thread--is that audiences love a system like this, where numbers are given out and the contestants ranked. And there's certain irony in the fact that skating ditched it at the same time it was being used to draw viewers in on reality TV. Of course, if figure skating doesn't care what audiences think, it doesn't matter.
    These two posts from you show me that you aren't actually reading this thread but popping in and out. If you were reading, you would know that someone did say that in this thread. The argument was made that DWTS stole it's juding system from skating and that DWTS's popularity proves that 6.0 is the better scoring system. This is not something I "read into" the article that Brennan wrote. It was an argument explicitly made in this thread.
    "Cupcakes are bullshit. And everyone knows it. A cupcake is just a muffin with clown puke topping." -Charlie Brooker

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post

    Meanwhile just for me personally, the last thing on earth I'd want to see is skating be run like a reality show. Gag me.
    And least then we'd know without a doubt that scores were based soley on judge favoritism/personal preference, reputation judging, and on no set criteria at all. No conspiracy theory about it!

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex View Post
    CoP has its flaws and so did 6.0. And people have a right to talk about them unless the mods say otherwise.
    We'd still have the right, but we just wouldn't get to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    These two posts from you show me that you aren't actually reading this thread but popping in and out. If you were reading, you would know that someone did say that in this thread. The argument was made that DWTS stole it's juding system from skating and that DWTS's popularity proves that 6.0 is the better scoring system. This is not something I "read into" the article that Brennan wrote. It was an argument explicitly made in this thread.
    Yes, it is evident that the poster MacMadame has not read the entire thread or they wouldn't be arguing back and forth with you. Sometimes you just can't win. Many of us know you are in the right, so just let them believe what they want to.

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    As Christine Brennan points out in her article, popular reality shows like Dancing with the Stars use a similar numerical ranking (greatly simplified, of course)--a system that figure skating invented! Everyone knew that 6.0 was a perfect score. No one had to bring a calculator to figure out how much a skater needed to go ahead. No one is holding up placards that say 150 during Yu Na's long program. It was part of the fun of being a fan--sort of like the baseball fans who bring "K" placards for pitchers known for striking out a lot of batters.
    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    The point is not that DWTS is or should be an international sport (and I know you were joking). It's that it copied figure skating's numerical ranking system to draw in fans--a system that figure skating invented and then threw away! I'm not a huge Brennan fan, but her article, linked at the first post, makes some very good observations.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    These two posts from you show me that you aren't actually reading this thread but popping in and out. If you were reading, you would know that someone did say that in this thread. The argument was made that DWTS stole it's juding system from skating and that DWTS's popularity proves that 6.0 is the better scoring system. This is not something I "read into" the article that Brennan wrote. It was an argument explicitly made in this thread.
    For lack of anything better to do, I skimmed back through the thread. The only someone I can find who talked about the DWTS scoring and skating scoring was Giselle23. So MacMadame you seem to be saying that giselle23 didn't read her own posts.

    You've got kind of a circular discussion going on...
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  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    Yes, it is evident that the poster MacMadame has not read the entire thread or they wouldn't be arguing back and forth with you. Sometimes you just can't win. Many of us know you are in the right, so just let them believe what they want to.
    Seriously? I want to know who MacMadame's someone is if its not giselle23 herself!
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  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    What a great technical analysis!

    You know, your arguments agains CoP would would have a lot more credibility if you made arguments like these only in favor of Kostner getting higher PCS back then:
    And your arguments for CoP would have a lot more credibility if you had made arguments like the one kwanfan made instead of just saying "She didn't deserve them" I still stand by my contention that PCS is crap on a stick. Caro's gorgeous Pachelbel Canon SP from 2007 Worlds (where she landed a beautiful 3F-3T) was not 5 points worse PCS wise than her short at 2013 worlds (where she fell). It just isn't.

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    As Christine Brennan points out in her article, popular reality shows like Dancing with the Stars use a similar numerical ranking (greatly simplified, of course)--a system that figure skating invented! Everyone knew that 6.0 was a perfect score. No one had to bring a calculator to figure out how much a skater needed to go ahead. No one is holding up placards that say 150 during Yu Na's long program. It was part of the fun of being a fan--sort of like the baseball fans who bring "K" placards for pitchers known for striking out a lot of batters.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    DWTS did not copy skatings numerical ranking system. It's scoring system is based on ballroom dance. You know... the kind of competition it is. And it's not even an ordinal system as they sometimes add the scores from different dances together.
    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    No one said it is. What Christine Brennan said in her article--which is what started this thread--is that audiences love a system like this, where numbers are given out and the contestants ranked. And there's certain irony in the fact that skating ditched it at the same time it was being used to draw viewers in on reality TV. Of course, if figure skating doesn't care what audiences think, it doesn't matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Yes, someone did say that. And DWTS does not use a "system like that" and it isn't the scoring system of DWTS that draws in viewers. It's the dancing and the fluff pieces. They could use any scoring system or none. Just give them feedback and announce who is in the bottom two and people would still watch.
    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    Who said it? No one. Here is exactly what Christine Brennan said:

    "In response, they shelved the sport's immensely popular but flawed 6.0 scoring system for an anonymous points-based system that few truly understand to this day. Even though it has produced some fairer results, this was a huge marketing mistake. The 6.0 system was reality TV before there was reality TV. It was Dancing with the Stars before anyone ever heard of the show, with the flags of the judges' countries and their scores superimposed over the skater watching in the aptly named "Kiss and Cry" area. Every TV show on earth wanted what skating had, and skating gave it all away."

    Her article is what started this thread. She doesn't say DWTS is based on figure skating or 6.0. You are reading way too much into what was intended just to be an interesting observation.
    This was such strange exchange, I had to go back and look again. From what I can tell, giselle23 was merely saying that Brennan was saying people like a simple numerical system where judges hold up one (or two) big numbers, like 6.0 used to be (but "greatly simplified" on DWTS, quote from giselle's initial post). That was the analogy here, which I believe MacMadame, you have misinterpreted (in addition to forgetting that the person you are arguing was the one that reiterated the point from Brennan to begin with).

    Brennan (and giselle) never claimed the dwts and 6.0 systems are the same system. The point simply was that the general public like seeing judges hold up a large, simple number. That and only that was the point being made by bringing up dwts.

    Of course in 6.0 in skating, this was followed by complex ordinal gyrations, but the general population rarely concerned themselves with that...they simply liked seeing those numbers held up. In fact, they were held up on little placards in the old days, just like dwts.

    Just wow.
    Disclaimer: The post contained herein represents the opinions of a fan and may or may not bear any relation to reality.

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    For lack of anything better to do, I skimmed back through the thread. The only someone I can find who talked about the DWTS scoring and skating scoring was Giselle23. So MacMadame you seem to be saying that giselle23 didn't read her own posts.
    I couldn't remember who it was and I did go back and look but I couldn't find it. You are more patient than I am, that is for sure. I can see now where the confusion is. I do not believe that "Dancing with the Stars use a similar numerical ranking". Unless by "similar" you mean "they both use numbers" which is taking the word similar to a ridiculous level. And Brennan did say that apparently. Because she's an idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by iloveemoticons View Post
    And your arguments for CoP would have a lot more credibility if you had made arguments like the one kwanfan made instead of just saying "She didn't deserve them"
    Well I was going to but kwanfan made it for me as did at least two other people. No need to repeat all that and no way I could do it as well as kwanfan (in particular) could anyway.

    Most of the arguments I've seen against CoP here either glorify 6.0 for something it never was, complain about CoP for things that 6.0 did too, use examples that show that the poster clearly doesn't understand the scoring system (and sometimes not even what they are seeing in terms of the skating) or blame CoP for factors that would have happened anyway (TV ratings, losing interesting in skating personally).

    Your particular example: "PCS are being used to hold skaters up/down based on reputation and time in the system" was a common complaint with 6.0 as well for example. I think it was equally valid under 6.0 as it is under CoP. Which is to say, it sometimes happened or seemed to happen, but mostly the youngsters who were being "held down" had inferior presentation and skating skills and deserved those lower marks based on what was put out on the ice.

    I do see some valid complaints about CoP. The one that troubles me the most about it is that it doesn't do a good job of marking when "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts." That one troubles me the most because I think it's the hardest to solve. I think it can be solved though via the PCS. To me, the whole is part of the PE mark and the SS mark. I also think that, because skating is a sport and most skaters are not really great "artistes" that it doesn't happen the majority of the time. Which is part of why it's not a deal breaker for me. I can see why it might be for some though. Then again, just having a scoring system at all is a deal breaker for some.

    Most of the other issues that I see are not issues of CoP but of the individual table of values. UR are dinged too much IMO, for example . But that's not specific to CoP. You could just change the rules to make UR only get marked if the jump was less than x.5 times around (or even x.3 or x.4) for anything but the axel and that problem would go away. You don't have to get rid of CoP to fix that one. Same with jump/falls/spins/etc. being under/over valued/penalized. Just change the values in the tables and that can be fixed. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
    "Cupcakes are bullshit. And everyone knows it. A cupcake is just a muffin with clown puke topping." -Charlie Brooker

  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    We'd still have the right, but we just wouldn't get to.
    You have no rights on a discussion board.

    I would like to see Christine Brennan provide some evidence that 6.0 was "immensely popular." A claim is just a claim until it has support.
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

  12. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    You have no rights on a discussion board.

    ...
    How draconian.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    How draconian.
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

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    Oppressor!
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    Oppressor!
    Are you not still here, posting away, Madame Prolific?

    But only because The Powers That Be allow it, and don't you forget it.
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

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    I never do.
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I would like to see Christine Brennan provide some evidence that 6.0 was "immensely popular." A claim is just a claim until it has support.
    Was there any discussion among fans about the 6.0 system while it was used? I mean, not about the politics or conspiracy theories, but about the judging system itself?

    My impression was that the 6.0 system was neither popular nor unpopular. It was just there and we thought it would always be. There was nothing to compare it to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    Was there any discussion among fans about the 6.0 system while it was used? I mean, not about the politics or conspiracy theories, but about the judging system itself?

    My impression was that the 6.0 system was neither popular nor unpopular. It was just there and we thought it would always be. There was nothing to compare it to.
    I think that is pretty much true, although there was always a lot of discussion about how the system needed to be reformed.

    I think that rather argues against the system being popular, but perhaps I am not remembering expressions of fondness for the system.
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

  19. #299
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    FSU was here when discussions of a new system were going on. It would be interesting to dig those up if they are still in the archives. My impression is that there were people who favored adopting a new system and others who vehemently opposed the idea, certain it would ruin skating. That's not directly related to whether 6.0 was popular in of itself of course.
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    I haven't read the whole thread. So maybe someone has made this point already.

    Can you imagine how many 6.0 judging decisions would have been eviscerated on this forum, and the online world in general, if the internet, various social media platforms, etc. had existed back in those days? It would have been brutal.

    CoP is more analytically evidence-based, but it's far from perfect. No judging system can ever be perfect in this sport. IMO either we accept this, enjoy the wonderful performances of the top skaters in each discipline, and try to be philosophical when judging decisions have some merits on both sides of the coin, or abandon the sport. Maybe that's where we're headed, and I think that would be very unfortunate - it's a sport of great athleticism and beauty, and there's nothing like the feeling of flying across the ice. To see what today's skaters can do is simply amazing. JMO.

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