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  1. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiruwater View Post
    I watched all the SPs. I stuck around because of Sasha.

    And yes, I can, because I am apparently better at math than being able to see via my small TV or laptop the various things I need to see to tell all the jumps apart. And I think you'd be surprised at how many people on this site similarly cannot tell all the jumps apart.

    I appreciate the insult though. Thanks.
    *raises hand* I still get the salchow and the loop mixed up sometimes. I can tell the lutz and flip in slow mo but usually get them mixed up in real time. I've been watching skating since the Nancy/Tonya scandal and I still get the jumps mixed up.

    However, CoP is not very difficult to understand. I can usually tell what level a spin will get, what level footwork will get, etc. Telling the jumps apart and understanding CoP are two different things.
    "If people are looking for guarantees, they should buy appliances at Sears and stay away from human relationships."~Prancer

  2. #182
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    I think we learn the sport either by being involved in the sport or a lot of us by watching on TV. Since COP the commentators need to not get emotional over things like barely hung on jumps that will be at least dinged as under rotated or maybe even down graded. This is where the audience is really hurting in understanding the sport. We need trained technical caller's commentating. The audience needs to know the likelihood of a skaters actual potential score.

    The audience needs to be educated by the commentators so they can have an informed bases to their need for a general impression of who is actually going to win or lose.

    Yes I know there are a few other problems to be addressed but I think getting the commentators, fans and causal viewer knowledgeable of what is actually happening on the ice is a big step.

    I think the sport or even the broadcast need to use the popularity of smart phones and aps to create a live look into what the judges are actually scoring at the time or at least what trained caller commentators guesstimate skills and levels will be called.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I think fans forgave the arbitrary scores for tech. and presentation because fans knew that what really mattered were the rankings.
    Which they disagreed with all the time. And usually cited the artistic impression/presentation score as the problem, just as we have endless arguments about inflated PCS after every competition.

    When we had 6.0, I didn't see people forgiving it for anything. I saw people complaining endless that the system needed to be fixed.

    Please, someone remind me again of why we got rid of 6.0 when everyone liked it so much.
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Which they disagreed with all the time. And usually cited the artistic impression/presentation score as the problem, just as we have endless arguments about inflated PCS after every competition.

    When we had 6.0, I didn't see people forgiving it for anything. I saw people complaining endless that the system needed to be fixed.

    Please, someone remind me again of why we got rid of 6.0 when everyone liked it so much.
    True, but is it really much different now? What I see is that COP is giving us more tools to pick fights about with the disagreements being just as passionate.

    Maybe the reason why some are romanticizing 6.0 is because we've gone through 9 seasons of COP and those people are deciding they like the 6.0 approach more for a number of reasons.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Please, someone remind me again of why we got rid of 6.0 when everyone liked it so much.
    I'm not here to defend 6.0 and, again, I've very sympathetic to some of the ideas behind IJS. I think posting protocals is a wonderful wonderful idea for example.

    What I hate about it is the presentation. They dumped the one thing that 6.0 was really good at (providing an immediate emotional connection for most viewers) and replaced it with a single number or two numbers or a bunch of numbers that don't mean anything to the audience. And that's at least because the specific numbers can't be traced to specific judges and things like TEs aren't divided (in any competition I've seen) into the the natural divisions like : Jumps 36.9 Spins 25.6 Footwork 22.8 but a single lump sum. Sometimes PC scores are listed separately but those seem to overlap too much and be entirely too impressionistic to be worth anything.

    That's not even getting started on secret judging - and please tell me no fairytales about it preserving judgng integrity. I'll repeat the ISU's reaction to 2002 was as if the Tour de France reacted to doping scandals by stopping drug tests (or going back to drug tests that can't detect the juice that current riders use or just keeping the results secret and ignoring them). Judging in the sunshine folks, if the light of day hurts the pocess then just close up shop - things aren't worth saving.

    I'm sure that even with the current system the results could be displayed in a way that captures the public imagination and draws them in (as much as 5.7 from the Austrian judge, 5.8 from the Japanese judge etc.)

  6. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by iloveemoticons View Post
    If these [PCS] are objective criteria, then the judges don't seem to apply them well bc the same skaters get different PCS depending on judge and competition.
    I sure hope the scores vary from competition to competition!
    As for every judge not giving the exact same score, that is the case also for the marks that you consider "objective", such as the GoE for the jumps. We rarely see a row of straight 1's or straight 2's for any of the elements.

    Not to say that the program components are always used well, but most of these are strictly technical marks, based on objective criteria.

    Ultimately IMO it's still subjective, because most of the skaters I saw seemed to build speed well in crossovers and maintain it well throughout.
    Have you seen the warm-up of the final group at the Worlds this year? Especially when they are all on ice, the difference between the skaters is glaring. During the performance, you need to be in the arena to really judge the speed, but it is also visible on TV if you are used to looking for it.

  7. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by all_empty View Post
    The 6.0 system was 100% better for viewers. NBC has made credible attempts to provide benchmarks for scores, explain deductions, etc. but COP will never have the same emotional effect of seeing a 6.0 flash up on the screen.
    Several people have raised the issue of the emotional impact of seeing a perfect or near perfect score. Maybe broadcasters should address this issue and show the five PCS on screen. Viewers would know that these scores are over 10.0, so they should have the same emotional impact as the 6.0 scores.

    Also, the scores needed to beat the current 1st, 2nd and 3rd place skaters could be displayed on the screen, before the actual score of the skater. Just like the "time to beat" displayed in skiing.

    However, at the Worlds last week, the audience were screaming their heads off when a high score was shown, even before seeing the placement. So they must understand the score and it must have some emotional impact.

    I've been following skating for 20 years and I still can't tell you want a good free dance score is, for example.
    With the current elements, around 110 is a gold-medal contender's score and 100 is a medal contender's score at the Worlds. In general you can simply go to the ISU's site and look at the scores given at the previous competitions of the season. Anyone who doesn't make such a minimal effort can still enjoy watching the skating, but has no right to complain that he can't tell what a good score is.

  8. #188

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    NBC has moved to tell audiences that if you are man and get over 80 that is great! 70 is good and below 60 probably bad. But it can change competition to competition because 95 can win a sp or 85 can.

  9. #189
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    It annoys me that people keep on discussing on this topic and giving suggestions to help this situation of our beloved sport and then the ISU does nothing. Do they read message boards? Do they care what is happening?

  10. #190
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    What's interesting is that Ashley Wagner was blogging on the espnW site yet the network wasn't actually covering any events (espnW seems to showcase WNBA as its marquee event, with women's college basketball next in importance)

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    skating need the drama, its a sport that appeals to women and gay men. Bring back the soap opera aspect I say.

    Maybe brennan should try writing something positive about it once in a while. Who is going to bother watching a sport that is deemed dead by a skating reporter?
    Those people probably don't read Brennan.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Some online discussions of 6.0 by casual fans on non-skating sites:

    http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/.../t-234512.html

    https://groups.google.com/forum/?fro...ce/omy_MuOlyO4

    https://groups.google.com/forum/?fro...ng/ik9fUF2RKOc

    https://groups.google.com/forum/?fro...cs/RGGZqwyj210

    http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/...ad.php?t=73463

    These are just discussions about judging under 6.0. If anyone would like to read posts from casual fans insisting that they do not watch skating because of the way that it was judged under 6.0 or will never watch skating again because of the way it was judged under 6.0, I found plenty of them.
    I think that for any topic you can name, 90% of posts to the Internet about it will be negative, It's just human nature. A person does not rush to the computer and pound furiously away at the keyboard to say, "Oh, I think everything is going along pretty well, No complaints here."

    IMHO the audience that skating has lost is not the people who are into skating enough to post in skating forums. It is people like my mother. Mom never missed a skating program on TV (unless it conflicted with her Lawrence Welk), and she went to live events whenever they came to town. She liked to see the girls in their pretty dresses, the boys leaping nimbly about, and the couples gliding gracefully on the ice. I don't know if she specifically bought the products of companies that sponsored figure skating, but when they made charitable appeals for breast cancer research or UNICEF or the Humane Society she often sent a small check.

    Mom knew two things about skating. A 6.0 was good and a fall was bad.

    How times change.

  13. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    I was talking about staying up late watching worlds the other day with my old roomie, who is not a skating fan, and has only ever watched skating when she lived with me and i made her watch with me. She said that she felt that is just not exciting now, "not like back when it was all about Kwan and Cohen". Maybe casual fans do find it hard to relate to the new stars (for what ever reason).
    Writing from the US, I think that skating's popularity here has been hurt by the failure of a new Kwan or Cohen to emerge. US skating coverage really does focus on the top 1, 2 or 3 ladies, and when they do well, skating does well. Unfortunately, the US ladies have had a drought in the medals at Worlds and Olympics since 2006. The current crop of ladies is very good, in my estimation, but none of them have won World or Olympic medals yet. There may be a good rivalry between Ashley and Gracie developing, and if either of them should start winning Worlds, I expect that interest in skating here in the US will improve. We must have a queen or at least a princess to rule skating here. Of course as far as I'm concerned, Charlie White may rule for as long as he likes.

    I'm also looking forward to seeing programs in all disciplines using vocal music starting in the 2014-2015 season. The vocals have been very popular in ice dance, and they may prove popular in pairs and singles, too, so long as vocals don't mean doing the operatic version of Carmen rather than one of the instrumental arrangements.

  14. #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think that for any topic you can name, 90% of posts to the Internet about it will be negative, It's just human nature. A person does not rush to the computer and pound furiously away at the keyboard to say, "Oh, I think everything is going along pretty well, No complaints here."

    IMHO the audience that skating has lost is not the people who are into skating enough to post in skating forums. It is people like my mother. Mom never missed a skating program on TV (unless it conflicted with her Lawrence Welk), and she went to live events whenever they came to town. She liked to see the girls in their pretty dresses, the boys leaping nimbly about, and the couples gliding gracefully on the ice. I don't know if she specifically bought the products of companies that sponsored figure skating, but when they made charitable appeals for breast cancer research or UNICEF or the Humane Society she often sent a small check.

    Mom knew two things about skating. A 6.0 was good and a fall was bad.

    How times change.
    I admit that I like a lot of things about CoP but in some ways this system has probably isolated some casual fans. I went with a friend to the Ladies Finals of US Nationals a few years back. She's definitely a casual fan who doesn't go looking for internet feeds or post on forums like this. She saw that the competition was in town and she wanted to go (just like your mom). When she went, she was rather disappointed. She asked why so many spins looked similar now and why so many skaters were doing other similar moves. She also thought that a lot of the moves being done by the ladies didn't look nice. She was especially disappointed that seemingly clean performances (ones with URs, etc.) were getting beat by messier ones (this was the year that Czisny won her first US title). I knew why Czisny won and how the results came about but for my friend, the competition didn't make a lot of sense.

    Again, I like CoP but I think gkelly is right that there needs to be a scoring system that is good for skaters but also doesn't alienate fans. I love that skaters can get rewarded for doing great spins or wonderful footwork now. However, as the system is right now, the parts are greater than sum. Good for skaters and die hards like us. Not good for fans like Mathman's mom or my friend. Die hard fans are great but if we can, we should try to keep the interest of those casual fans too.
    "If people are looking for guarantees, they should buy appliances at Sears and stay away from human relationships."~Prancer

  15. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Which they disagreed with all the time. And usually cited the artistic impression/presentation score as the problem, just as we have endless arguments about inflated PCS after every competition.

    When we had 6.0, I didn't see people forgiving it for anything. I saw people complaining endless that the system needed to be fixed.

    Please, someone remind me again of why we got rid of 6.0 when everyone liked it so much.
    The point is not love for the 6.0 system. What needed fixing was the judging. Instead of addressing corrupt judging, the whole system was thrown out in favor of a system that still doesn't address the judging problem. It just makes the results more difficult to understand and cheating more difficult to uncover. There is nothing in the new system to stop judges from colluding to give high or low GOE's or, especially, high or low component scores. In fact, the judges are now anonymous, so only Speedy and his minions would be able to ferret out cheating, if it occurred. I suppose that is the way they want it...

  16. #196

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    I'm not here to defend 6.0 and, again, I've very sympathetic to some of the ideas behind IJS. I think posting protocals is a wonderful wonderful idea for example.

    What I hate about it is the presentation. They dumped the one thing that 6.0 was really good at (providing an immediate emotional connection for most viewers) and replaced it with a single number or two numbers or a bunch of numbers that don't mean anything to the audience. And that's at least because the specific numbers can't be traced to specific judges and things like TEs aren't divided (in any competition I've seen) into the the natural divisions like : Jumps 36.9 Spins 25.6 Footwork 22.8 but a single lump sum. Sometimes PC scores are listed separately but those seem to overlap too much and be entirely too impressionistic to be worth anything.

    That's not even getting started on secret judging - and please tell me no fairytales about it preserving judgng integrity. I'll repeat the ISU's reaction to 2002 was as if the Tour de France reacted to doping scandals by stopping drug tests (or going back to drug tests that can't detect the juice that current riders use or just keeping the results secret and ignoring them). Judging in the sunshine folks, if the light of day hurts the pocess then just close up shop - things aren't worth saving.

    I'm sure that even with the current system the results could be displayed in a way that captures the public imagination and draws them in (as much as 5.7 from the Austrian judge, 5.8 from the Japanese judge etc.)
    I just don't understand how one arbitrary number that doesn't mean anything is more emotionally satisfying or inspiring than another. A 5.7 means nothing; it can, depending on the judging, mean exactly the same thing as a 5.8 or a 5.3 or any other number. What is it that you find so appealing about those numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by IceIceBaby View Post
    It annoys me that people keep on discussing on this topic and giving suggestions to help this situation of our beloved sport and then the ISU does nothing. Do they read message boards? Do they care what is happening?
    What should they do?

    Do people actually expect the ISU to change their system to make the casual fans happy on the off chance that they will suddenly drop everything else they've been doing all this time to return to skating?


    Quote Originally Posted by modern_muslimah View Post
    I admit that I like a lot of things about CoP but in some ways this system has probably isolated some casual fans. I went with a friend to the Ladies Finals of US Nationals a few years back. She's definitely a casual fan who doesn't go looking for internet feeds or post on forums like this. She saw that the competition was in town and she wanted to go (just like your mom). When she went, she was rather disappointed. She asked why so many spins looked similar now and why so many skaters were doing other similar moves. She also thought that a lot of the moves being done by the ladies didn't look nice. She was especially disappointed that seemingly clean performances (ones with URs, etc.) were getting beat by messier ones (this was the year that Czisny won her first US title). I knew why Czisny won and how the results came about but for my friend, the competition didn't make a lot of sense.
    You know, I remember being at competitions where people booed the judges for placing skaters who had messy performances over skaters who had seemingly clean ones under 6.0 as well. We all do. It happened all the time. That's not an IJS problem; that's an inherent issue with a complex judged sport.

    Now the boring programs? That makes sense to me. The criteria pretty much demands that skaters all aim for the same things. So many programs are similar. And that won't change much under IJS.

    But that has nothing to do with this fondness for factored placements.

    What exactly was the attendance at Worlds?
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    . Our culture wants drama and controversy figure skating it too refined to keep people's attention .
    Yah, the knee-whack heard round the world was really classy stuff!

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by all_empty View Post
    Yeah, but you remember her ... and that's the most important thing.
    Oh, yah, that's a great thing for kids to emulate....Good advice! No wonder our country is going to hell in a hand basket.................

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Please, someone remind me again of why we got rid of 6.0 when everyone liked it so much.
    Idiotic knee-jerk reaction to cheating judges.............

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