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  1. #341

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    Quote Originally Posted by topaz View Post
    The music chosen by the coaches for some these skaters to use is so freaking dated. How many of the ladies skating were skating slow, ballads. Classical ballads. Only a few ladies used upbeat, melodically different music. Same with the pairs team.
    In many cases, I suspect that the use of slow ballads, whether classical or New Age or muzaked versions of pop songs, is because the skaters find it easier to stay calm, skate smoothly, and execute their elements cleanly when skating to calm smooth music.

    Also such music tends to be more forgiving in terms of interpretation and staying on time than anything that's rhythmically complex or unpredictable.

    Even when vocal music is allowed, I expect a lot of ballads, even if they were written in this century and sung by the latest pop divas.

    I would hope that skaters who use more complex music successfully would actually be rewarded for doing so, regardless of whether it's by Stravinsky or Led Zeppelin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    In many cases, I suspect that the use of slow ballads, whether classical or New Age or muzaked versions of pop songs, is because the skaters find it easier to stay calm, skate smoothly, and execute their elements cleanly when skating to calm smooth music.

    Also such music tends to be more forgiving in terms of interpretation and staying on time than anything that's rhythmically complex or unpredictable.
    No it is because most skaters do not have a very broad musical knowledge so they keep going with stuff they are familar with and know. Or choose soundtracks from the latest blockbuster movies (Les Mis anyone?).
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  3. #343

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    But there are plenty of familiar songs that are up-tempo. So why don't the skaters choose those? Because they're harder to skate to!

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by topaz View Post
    don't show any USA pair teams.
    Well, they didn't. They didn't show ANY pairs. I think that's ridiculous, personally.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  5. #345
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    I admit I haven't read the entire thread - 18 pages! I apologize if this has been discussed already. But, I think the outfits skaters wear are just too much and prevent some people from taking it seriously as a sport...at least in my family. I really wish the countries would have a simple team uniform, like in gymnastics, and let the skating speak for itself.

  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoseAugust View Post
    I admit I haven't read the entire thread - 18 pages! I apologize if this has been discussed already. But, I think the outfits skaters wear are just too much and prevent some people from taking it seriously as a sport...at least in my family. I really wish the countries would have a simple team uniform, like in gymnastics, and let the skating speak for itself.
    I can't think of a more horrifying idea.
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoseAugust View Post
    a simple team uniform, like in gymnastics
    This would surely guarantee the extinction of figure skating.

    At its best, figure skating was:

    • An art, where beauty was rewarded above all, and where a single flaw was a serious detraction
    • A political soap opera, where evil communists showed their bias in scoring, and the free world still won even with the handicap of integrity

    The two legs that figure skating skated on are now gone. It is no longer an art but a boring sport, where skaters can roll all over the ice and still win; it is no longer a political thriller, but a shadowy box that spits out a score.

    Chinquanta took out the soul of figure skating, and made it as boring as speed skating (his personal sport). Of course the viewership of figure skating will shrink to the size of speed skating events. The only thing left is to do away with the costumes.

  8. #348
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    I love how people make it sound like Cinquanta without any outside issues at all simply chose to suddenly wreck figure skating with the IJS.

    What actually happened was that the subjective nature of judging artistry combined with the utter lust for political soap opera of many avid fans and others involved in skating to create a crisis of acceptance for figure skating as a sport.

    I realize there's probably some fairy tale by which someone other than the Big Bad Wolf (Cinquanta) would have resolved this crisis so that everyone lived happily ever after, but while maybe someone else would have done it a bit better, its unlikely figure skating could have resolved the crisis so as to restore both its credibility and the particular artistry it had under 6.0.

    So basically, all y'all who loved to follow the judges more than the skaters and to tally up which bloc and its bias determined which result have for years now reaped what you sowed.

    For the rest of us figure skating is alive. The World Championships were exciting. Latvian TV is great. And we can't wait til the Oly season!
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  9. #349

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dufusyte View Post
    At its best, figure skating was:

    [LIST][*]An art, where beauty was rewarded above all,
    Yes -- but "above all" what was rewarded was the beauty of the blade gliding over the ice, which is harder to appreciate on video/from afar.

    Competitive skating is not, primarily, an art. It's a technical sport with aesthetic qualities.

    Skating technique can also be used to create art, but that's not the purpose of ISU competition.

    and where a single flaw was a serious detraction
    Not according to the rules.

    [*]A political soap opera, where evil communists showed their bias in scoring, and the free world still won even with the handicap of integrity
    I think it's highly unfortunate that international figure skating during the Cold War was so politically polarized that TV commentary made that into such a central narrative. It's irrelevant to the skating and judging, but it taught viewers to watch skating in search of wrongdoing and bias instead of focusing on the details of the skating.

    It isn't part of the sport itself and should not be encouraged as part of the sport's appeal. You're really asking for more politics and corruption???

    If the sport of figure skating is not of interest to the general public except insofar as they can ignore skating technique and focus only on beauty and politics, then it's inherently a niche sport with limited appeal as an entertainment product.

    But as long as skaters like to skate and value good skating, the sport itself will survive. And as long as some fans like to see good technique and risky technical content, it will continue to attract some sports fans.

    As is the case for most other Olympic sports.

    Can the ISU provide both art/entertainment and sport within the same event, or should sponsor they separate events for different purposes?

    Should they tweak the rules to reward clean programs more, at the expense of discouraging technical and athletic risk?

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    I probably would have gone to Worlds had All-Event tickets been somewhat less expensive.
    Adding hotel/airfare from FL to those inflated prices discouraged me from seriously considering the trip.
    I really wanted to go.
    Just now reading this thread, and I must say that I totally agree with you. I still (God willing) would love to go to one of the skating events someday. My finances and budget has really changed since I've become disabled. I had actually considered Worlds, but I found the airfare alone was quite expensive. That along with hotel expenses and the price of all-event tickets has also discouraged me from considering a trip like that. Perhaps if the event was closer to where I live, I would consider going. I would still have to consider the price of tickets, however.
    Angie
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  11. #351

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoseAugust View Post
    I admit I haven't read the entire thread - 18 pages! I apologize if this has been discussed already. But, I think the outfits skaters wear are just too much and prevent some people from taking it seriously as a sport...at least in my family. I really wish the countries would have a simple team uniform, like in gymnastics, and let the skating speak for itself.
    Why would you want such a thing? It would be hideous, and I can think of few things less becoming than the gymnasts' leotards. Also, in gymnastics, other than women's FX there is no music. What would you do with skaters of the same nationality using completely different styles of music? It would look ridiculous if they all wore the same thing, and it would be distracting. Should Chan and Reynolds wear the same thing while one skates to Elegie and the other to Chambermaid Swing, plus Scott Moir with Carmen and the other Canadian guys with their programs? Or Amodio and Joubert while one does Samba and the other electronic music, plus throw in P/B with their Rolling stones FD and J/C with Pearl Harbor... can you think of a uniform-costume that would fit them all? Even in the CDs, where people did have the same music options, there was variety in how the skaters performed and expressed the music and variation in the costumes was also appropriate.

    Skating is not just about technical mastery of the elements and skills, it is also about performance and interpretation. Uniforms are by their nature designed to minimize variety and make everyone look, well, uniform, and would thus be inappropriate for a sport that values individual expression and performance and not just technical ones. I would certainly like to see some skaters in simpler costumes (I believe there was a Trash Can thread about that a few months back), but not uniforms. BTW, rhythmic gymnasts, who do perform to music, wear costumes - and very ornamented ones at that.

    If people can't take skating seriously because of the costumes, they probably won't take it seriously even with uniforms - there will be another excuse, e.g. judged sport, too confusing, too subjective, As far as I'm concerned, people who can't see the sport because of the costumes are like people who couldn't look past the title to see that Buffy the Vampire Slayer was amazing - their loss, in both cases.
    Last edited by Zemgirl; 03-26-2013 at 05:24 PM.

  12. #352

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    I love how people make it sound like Cinquanta without any outside issues at all simply chose to suddenly wreck figure skating with the IJS.

    I realize there's probably some fairy tale by which someone other than the Big Bad Wolf (Cinquanta) would have resolved this crisis so that everyone lived happily ever after, but while maybe someone else would have done it a bit better, its unlikely figure skating could have resolved the crisis so as to restore both its credibility and the particular artistry it had under 6.0.
    You've been around a long time BR, so I know you know that Cinquanta is a big bad ******* wolf. The way he operated in 2002-4 was in the interests of saving his own arse, not in the best interest of the sport. When I have more time I will search archives for examples from the time period. IIRC, he refused to directly address the known issues around cheating through stiffer sanctions and more punitive or lifetime bans for corruption, he refused input of a lot of well respected and long-time members of the ISU towards development of a new judging system, he controversially allowed speed skating to have a disproportionate say in approving IJS, and then famously called the IJS a "project not a rule" and turned around and unilaterally made it a rule against the bylaws of the ISU. (I may have details incorrect, like I said, I'll search archives later when I have time.)

    He could have done things a lot differently, but chose to prioritize his own need for power and control above all else.

  13. #353
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    I've been around a long time and I've heard a lot of claims. What I see is typical institutional governance, what I see is what happens when a whole bunch of interests are jockeying for position and pushing their agendas against one another. Someone else might have been a better leader than Cinquanta, but I doubt anyone would have been vilified much less than he has. Its the same old same old in human affairs.

    The instinct to demand that things be done better is a good one but it often falls off into creating an unconstructive resistance to anything that a particular group isn't able to completely control. Either/or is always easier than accepting shades of gray.

    You can present all the old discussions again and all it will show is that -- as with judging -- people with different interests, different stakes, and different temperaments will evaluate things differently.

    We're at the point discussing Cinquanta that it becomes the same as a political discussion, and we all know how everyone agrees on those!
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dufusyte View Post

    At its best, figure skating was:

    • An art, where beauty was rewarded above all, and where a single flaw was a serious detraction
    In the performing arts, there is an entire performance to be evaluated, and if someone chooses to fixate on a single flaw and ignore the rest, that's his or her prerogative to do with his or her dime, but it's not the way the arts (through reviews and criticism) and skating are judged professionally.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    I've been around a long time and I've heard a lot of claims. What I see is typical institutional governance, what I see is what happens when a whole bunch of interests are jockeying for position and pushing their agendas against one another. Someone else might have been a better leader than Cinquanta, but I doubt anyone would have been vilified much less than he has. Its the same old same old in human affairs.
    Do you deny that Cinquanta used the sheer numbers of Speed Skating representatives and political influence to allow the ISU to take the huge money from US TV networks from Figure Skating (back in the day) to divert it to Speed Skating instead of using it to develop Figure Skating and/or banking some against a decline?

    I don't accept this as general bag of influence peddling, general corruption, and pure personal ambition, and I think Figure Skating's response was feeble.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  15. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    ...
    Do you deny that Cinquanta used the sheer numbers of Speed Skating representatives and political influence to allow the ISU to take the huge money from US TV networks from Figure Skating (back in the day) to divert it to Speed Skating instead of using it to develop Figure Skating and/or banking some against a decline?

    I don't accept this as general bag of influence peddling, general corruption, and pure personal ambition, and I think Figure Skating's response was feeble.
    I certainly don't deny that it happened that way; I haven't the slightest clue what happened to be honest. I've seen that said here but that's about all I know about it.
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dufusyte View Post
    The only thing left is to do away with the costumes.
    And skate nekkid?

  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    For the rest of us figure skating is alive. The World Championships were exciting. Latvian TV is great. And we can't wait til the Oly season!
    Yup, that's about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post

    Should they tweak the rules to reward clean programs more, at the expense of discouraging technical and athletic risk?
    NOOOOOOOOOOO! (Well, you asked.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rex View Post
    And skate nekkid?
    I think the guys should at least wear dance belts.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  18. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post

    I think the guys should at least wear dance belts.
    Especially as long as sit spins are required.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  19. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Yup, that's about it.


    NOOOOOOOOOOO! (Well, you asked.)


    I think the guys should at least wear dance belts.
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Especially as long as sit spins are required.
    Speaking of ice tracings...
    "Skating fans are not a patient bunch." Dragonlady

  20. #360

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex View Post
    And skate nekkid?
    Stain the ice when they fall.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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