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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    But the IJS sees nothing strange about adding together an 8.25 in choreography with a 4.2 for doing a triple Salchow.
    I don't see why this is any more strange than adding 5.7 to X.X and coming up with a total to derive an ordinal.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  2. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Well, what does a first place ordinal from the judge from Tonga really mean? That Vera Voidskaya was the best that night? That Tonga has always liked Voidskaya and she's skated well all season until tonight, and she "won" the practices, so he'll cut her some slack? That the judge from Tonga is in the pocket of the Konspiristani Fed? Who knows, other than the judge from Tonga (and possibly Greaseyerpalm Politikov, head of the Konspiristani Fed)?
    Leave Tonga out of this. Their skaters tend to be overweight, so they have different standards

  3. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Leave Tonga out of this. Their skaters tend to be overweight, so they have different standards
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  4. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    You know, I remember being at competitions where people booed the judges for placing skaters who had messy performances over skaters who had seemingly clean ones under 6.0 as well. We all do. It happened all the time. That's not an IJS problem; that's an inherent issue with a complex judged sport.
    True. Perhaps this seems like more of an issue now because of a certain skater who skating under the current system.

    Now the boring programs? That makes sense to me. The criteria pretty much demands that skaters all aim for the same things. So many programs are similar. And that won't change much under IJS.

    But that has nothing to do with this fondness for factored placements.
    I'm not saying we should go back to factored placements. I am saying that there are definitely things that need to be worked on in the current judging system. The current judging system may not have caused the decline in viewership and shows in the US. However, there are some things (like cookie cutter programs and programs that work great at presenting parts but not a coherent whole) that probably won't help to bring American fans back either. There are other issues too that have nothing to do with any judging system (like lack of a US ladies star). I guess I'm just saying it's a complex issue (it would be nice to have stats about fans so the ISU, skaters and fans knew what to do to make skating more appealing). I don't think 6.0 will make the sport popular in the US again. However, I don't think we should overlook some weaknesses in the system either. Reading this discussion, it just feels as if there two camps (6.0 and CoP) and neither wants to admits that maybe the other side has some legitimate points.
    "If people are looking for guarantees, they should buy appliances at Sears and stay away from human relationships."~Prancer

  5. #225
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    I don't know of anyone who doesn't think COP has flaws. I don't know whether it has been a factor in decline of interest in skating, but I certainly think that the system needs to be changed in any number of ways to improve skating for the skaters and the existing fans, both in terms of content and in terms of people feeling the results fully reflect what happened on the ice.

    I don't even know why 6.0 is being discussed since it is dead and buried and never coming back. Certainly some folks who favored the system over the IJS like to argue about why it was better and IJS was a big mistake, just like some folks like to re-argue the results of past competitions. That's what discussion boards are for but it doesn't have much to do with the future of the sport, except insofar as people may look at what was lost when we changed to IJS and perhaps try to re-design aspects of the system to try to regain those aspects.
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  6. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by modern_muslimah View Post
    True. Perhaps this seems like more of an issue now because of a certain skater who skating under the current system.
    I wonder how much the same people would complain if the skater(s) who most often won with messy performances were more to their taste artistically or in off-ice personality.

    However, there are some things (like cookie cutter programs and programs that work great at presenting parts but not a coherent whole) that probably won't help to bring American fans back either.
    I think there are three things that could be done within a code-of-points environment to decrease the cookie-cutter-ness.

    1) Jigger the scale of values for non-jump elements such that it is always more valuable to earn higher GOE than to earn a higher level, and encourage judges to award positive GOEs, especially to simple elements with no flaws. (For spins, for example, another positive bullet point could be "consistent speed [or centering] throughout")

    2) Add even more level features and even more kinds of elements, and allow some flexibility in the number of each kind of element, so that skaters will have more individual choice about what skills to showcase to earn points based on their own strengths.

    A lot of the cookie-cutterness comes in elements where there are 4 possible features to earn level 4, so anyone who can tries to do all of them. If there were 8 possible features, then even if all skaters aim for level 4 (which suggestion 1 above would cut down on), they wouldn't all be choosing the same features.
    Also for some features that are on the books but are rarely seen, it may be because they're much harder to do at all or much harder to do in ways that tech panels are willing to call. So if the rules could be changed to make those features worth more, or if the minimum threshold for getting credit for that feature were relaxed, then we'd see more skaters trying those features instead of the already-popular ones.

    3) Use different rules in the technical program and free program so that one program rewards difficulty as defined by levels and the other ignores the levels and rewards quality only. It could be argued either way which program should be which:
    *Technical program requires simple basic elements to be compared apples to apples, no reward for variations and variations that compromise the basicness of the element are not allowed. Free program gives skaters the freedom to showcase whatever variations and adornments they can achieve and rewards the difficult ones with higher levels/base marks.
    OR
    *Technical program rewards technical difficulty, encouraging as many different skills within each element as possible. Free program rewards quality -- skaters are free to use whatever variations they're good at, but in this program they're only rewarded for the quality.

    The ISU has taken a small step in that last direction with the introduction of the choreo sequence. Would we like to see that approach go further in the free program and keep the short program as the place to showcase the multiple variations?

    By making emphases of the two programs that different, it would also push individual skaters to develop different kinds of skills for each.

    Reading this discussion, it just feels as if there two camps (6.0 and CoP) and neither wants to admits that maybe the other side has some legitimate points.
    I'm in the camp that believes it would be futile to try to go back. But I do think there is room for some significant steps forward in the current context to try to achieve goals (e.g., variety between skaters) that are currently lacking.

  7. #227
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    One thing they could do to get on the road to improving things would be to hire gkelly as a consultant.
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  8. #228

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    CoP has its flaws and so did 6.0. And people have a right to talk about them unless the mods say otherwise.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex View Post
    CoP has its flaws and so did 6.0. And people have a right to talk about them unless the mods say otherwise.
    Did someone say they didn't?

    I thought that was the bulk of this thread...
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  10. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    Did someone say they didn't?
    You did when you said this, jamesc:
    I don't even know why 6.0 is being discussed since it is dead and buried and never coming back.

  11. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    How exactly did 6.0 "draw people in"? It was the only scoring system most people knew, but I don't see how that drew people in. I never liked it, and quite a few fans I knew didn't like it, either, for reasons already discussed at length.
    As Christine Brennan points out in her article, popular reality shows like Dancing with the Stars use a similar numerical ranking (greatly simplified, of course)--a system that figure skating invented! Everyone knew that 6.0 was a perfect score. No one had to bring a calculator to figure out how much a skater needed to go ahead. No one is holding up placards that say 150 during Yu Na's long program. It was part of the fun of being a fan--sort of like the baseball fans who bring "K" placards for pitchers known for striking out a lot of batters.

  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex View Post
    You did when you said this, jamesc:
    Really now Rex. I said I didn't know why people were discussing it. If that's too strong for you, maybe some chamomile tea is in order?

    Seriously, read my following sentences in which I said said discussing it is what a discussion board is for.
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  13. #233
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    With 6.0 we had:

    1) Cookie cutter programs - some skaters had the same jump layout year after year and the only thing that changed was the music. A particular move got popular and it seemed like every skater did it. A particular piece of music was in the media and that year every discipline had at least 1 skater using it (way more at the lower levels).

    2) Boring programs because the skaters weren't artists and the same 10 pieces of music were used over and over (okay it's more than 10 but it seemed like only 10) and the skaters didn't really do much with their programs and choreography but get the job done and put their elements out on the ice

    3) The occasional artistic masterpiece that we all remember even 20-30 years later.

    4) Messy programs with falls winning over clean programs and people screaming (but he fell twice!)

    5) Safe but clean programs winning over programs with hard content with falls and mistake and people screaming (but he tried a quad and didn't win!)

    6) People having brilliant free skates but can't win because of what happened in the short (which the viewing audience may or may not have seen or remembered)

    7) People have not so brilliant free skates but still win because of what happened in the short (which the viewing audience may or may not have seen or remembered)

    8) Viewership started to decline

    That's right. Absolutely NONE of these things that people are blaming on CoP are CoP problems. Every single one of them happened under 6.0.
    "Cupcakes are bullshit. And everyone knows it. A cupcake is just a muffin with clown puke topping." -Charlie Brooker

  14. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    Really now Rex. I said I didn't know why people were discussing it. If that's too strong for you, maybe some chamomile tea is in order?
    Whatever BlueRidge. I said people had a right to discuss it in response to you saying you didn't know why...

  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex View Post
    Whatever BlueRidge. I said people had a right to discuss it in response to you saying you didn't know why...


    sorry if I'm offending you
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  16. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post


    sorry if I'm offending you
    never mind.

  17. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    As Christine Brennan points out in her article, popular reality shows like Dancing with the Stars use a similar numerical ranking (greatly simplified, of course)--a system that figure skating invented! Everyone knew that 6.0 was a perfect score. No one had to bring a calculator to figure out how much a skater needed to go ahead. No one is holding up placards that say 150 during Yu Na's long program. It was part of the fun of being a fan--sort of like the baseball fans who bring "K" placards for pitchers known for striking out a lot of batters.
    That shows how useless Christine Brennan's voice has become. I don't think the idea is ever going to fly that DWTS should be an international Olympic sport with multiple countries' celebrities facing off . She might as well write endless articles about how soccer is dying because Americans don't get how boring it is.
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 03-20-2013 at 03:53 PM.

  18. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    I don't think the idea is ever going to fly that DWTS should be an international sport

    I would not like to see South African D-List celebrities compete in dancing face offs against Canadian ones.
    The point is not that DWTS is or should be an international sport (and I know you were joking). It's that it copied figure skating's numerical ranking system to draw in fans--a system that figure skating invented and then threw away! I'm not a huge Brennan fan, but her article, linked at the first post, makes some very good observations.

  19. #239

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    That shows how useless Christine Brennan's voice has become. I don't think the idea is ever going to fly that DWTS should be an international Olympic sport with multiple countries' celebrities facing off . She might as well write endless articles about how soccer is dying because Americans don't get how boring it is.
    I think Christine was at her best when figure skating was at its height of popularity. Now, not so much.

  20. #240

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    And even said from a skater, "I can only milk this story so much".

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