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  1. #881

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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    I dont think they will have time for practice competitive programs during CSOI. And they need to pratice group numbers. Maybe they could use some new elements. But i am not sure.
    So they did FD choroe already and now working on SD? How do you think?
    And look, like D-W even will not made shows and workin with Marina.
    I don't know if they've done the FD choreo too. I'm just guessing they'll have the programs (at least the concept) down before SOI, but I really don't know. I don't think doing SOI will affect them. At least I hope not.
    "They’re everything in a team that we strive to be...they are to me the quintessential ice dance team of our time."~Kaitlyn Weaver

  2. #882

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    I don't know if they've done the FD choreo too. I'm just guessing they'll have the programs (at least the concept) down before SOI, but I really don't know. I don't think doing SOI will affect them. At least I hope not.
    Yes, I even think its good thing to have shows - you will be in good shape.

  3. #883
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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    And look, like D-W even will not made shows and workin with Marina.
    How do you know that is the case?
    Or are you assuming this because D/W haven't announced anything via social media?

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    If this year was about pushing personal boundaries and experimenting with choreography, V&M probably realized at some point in the season that it wasn't going to result in a title, but they nevertheless carried through with their goal to what for fans was a bitter end. Only time will tell whether or not they themselves viewed it as a successful season. For some reason (I still think it was injury) they had trouble executing two clean skates in their competitions this year, with the exception of Canadians where both SD and FD were brilliant - the time deduction wasn't visible I'm not overly convinced anymore that programs and music choices have all that big an impact on the results if their skating is flawless. So as we look forward to the next season, and setting programs aside, what do V&M need to do to ensure they are on top right out of the gate? How do they go about tackling this perception that their rivals are technically better or that they're faster even when it isn't true? I'm interested in hearing what other posters think V&M should do and what they think they will do.

  5. #885
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueglass View Post
    If this year was about pushing personal boundaries and experimenting with choreography, V&M probably realized at some point in the season that it wasn't going to result in a title, but they nevertheless carried through with their goal to what for fans was a bitter end. Only time will tell whether or not they themselves viewed it as a successful season. For some reason (I still think it was injury) they had trouble executing two clean skates in their competitions this year, with the exception of Canadians where both SD and FD were brilliant - the time deduction wasn't visible I'm not overly convinced anymore that programs and music choices have all that big an impact on the results if their skating is flawless. So as we look forward to the next season, and setting programs aside, what do V&M need to do to ensure they are on top right out of the gate? How do they go about tackling this perception that their rivals are technically better or that they're faster even when it isn't true? I'm interested in hearing what other posters think V&M should do and what they think they will do.
    I know everyone jumps to injury, but other than the cramping due to overtraining, I don't think so. They had two very difficult programs, especially their FD. Mistakes were to be expected in the GP series. Remember when Dick Button used to point out that the GP series was a time to make a few mistakes, get feedback, and tinker with the programs? Used to, all of the top teams made mistakes early on because they all had new choreography. A team isn't supposed to come out 100% at the beginning of the season because they're supposed to peak at worlds. Teams like V/M who are using the GP as intended are getting penalized in a way... But, really, other than the botched lift in the SD at SC, they didn't make any major errors during the GP series. The twizzle error at worlds was, I think, due to a confidence issue (and it shouldn't have resulted in the burying they received--at least 2 other teams have won in the past decade making mistakes exactly like the twizzle error V/M had in the OD/SD). The real issue is that they didn't have a competetion where both programs scored well, and that had nothing to do with injury or anything else actually happening on the ice.

    That's my long-winded way of saying V/M's problems this last season weren't due to injury and we don't need to keep going on about it, getting people wound up and worried when it's not an actual problem.

    I'm not sure what to do about the problems with the narrative and politics. Just with their basic skating skills alone, V/M should have a one-fall cushion. It's unfair that they have to be absolutely perfect right out of the gate to even get a shot. Frankly, I'm not sure they can do anything about it themselves except maybe try to get a good PR person to keep the conversation on the actual skating.

  6. #886
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueglass View Post
    If this year was about pushing personal boundaries and experimenting with choreography, V&M probably realized at some point in the season that it wasn't going to result in a title, but they nevertheless carried through with their goal to what for fans was a bitter end. Only time will tell whether or not they themselves viewed it as a successful season. For some reason (I still think it was injury) they had trouble executing two clean skates in their competitions this year, with the exception of Canadians where both SD and FD were brilliant - the time deduction wasn't visible I'm not overly convinced anymore that programs and music choices have all that big an impact on the results if their skating is flawless. So as we look forward to the next season, and setting programs aside, what do V&M need to do to ensure they are on top right out of the gate? How do they go about tackling this perception that their rivals are technically better or that they're faster even when it isn't true? I'm interested in hearing what other posters think V&M should do and what they think they will do.
    OK. This is going to sound very cynical, but I believe that the battle will be won or lost off the ice (unless V/M skate perfectly and D/W have an obvious error - ie, fall - or the judges will keep it close, based on the double standard we've seen this season).

    Is it possible that V/M finally realize that social media can be a powerful tool and hence the choice of a choreographer with a twitter account for one of their programs?

    I think they need to control the narrative this season and be proactive, rather than reactive.

  7. #887
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddtpdx View Post
    Is it possible that V/M finally realize that social media can be a powerful tool and hence the choice of a choreographer with a twitter account for one of their programs?
    I hear you, it is indeed a powerful tool, but I don't think they'd ever make a choice for that reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by ddtpdx View Post
    I think they need to control the narrative this season and be proactive, rather than reactive.
    I agree that would be helpful; we'll see. PR is not their priority, I actually admire that in many ways, but it doesn't do them any favours in the current media environment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpower View Post
    I hear you, it is indeed a powerful tool, but I don't think they'd ever make a choice for that reason.
    I agree that would be helpful; we'll see. PR is not their priority, I actually admire that in many ways, but it doesn't do them any favours in the current media environment.
    I agree with everything you said, which is why I'm just going to try to enjoy their last season as much as I can (while holding in my anger when the ****** judging happens).

  9. #889
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueglass View Post
    So as we look forward to the next season, and setting programs aside, what do V&M need to do to ensure they are on top right out of the gate? How do they go about tackling this perception that their rivals are technically better or that they're faster even when it isn't true? I'm interested in hearing what other posters think V&M should do and what they think they will do.
    What I think they will do? Stay with Marina, learn nothing, and probably not win.

    What I think they should do:

    Do something that will make it seem as though they're addressing the "problems" in their skating this season and forms the foundation for a lot of PR and politiking. A coaching change if the easiest way to go about this. Igor would certainly work, as he is known as a technical coach and they can say they're going to him because they want to make sure they're "back" at their level of 2010 (which IMO they have exceeded, but a common criticism was that they haven't been the same since Mahler). Lots of articles would be published about this, and Igor could emphasize that they are working on speed and elements aggressively.

    Try to have all level four elements as early as possible, preferably by their first GP, even if it means recycling. Going to Finlandia would help.

    Do the easiest possible things to get level 4. Do not add any more difficulty to an element than is necessary. Their lifts this season looked ever so slightly labored compared to their (easier) lifts from the past, and this was an opening to critique their form. To me, this is still more athletic than using variations on older lifts that have multiple stabilization points built in, but that's not how it was judged, so they should go for really easy level 4 lifts that they execute spectacularly well.

    Don't do any posing, because they want to keep the flow throughout the program (this is what made Mahler so special), but also don't do any difficult transitions that are unnecessary, slow them down, or look somewhat awkward (like the kick in Carmen). Don't be esoteric.

    For the FD, use music and a theme that is engaging and not difficult or controversial for the audience.

    For the SD, learn from this year's mistake. Do NOT diss the Finnstep. In fact, they need to emphasize how much they love it because it's a fast, technically tricky dance and they want to promote the idea that this is what they're all about. This year they did waltz-polka-waltz. They need to go to the traditional route of fast-slow-fast. They need to be exploding with quicksteppy energy the second the music starts.

    Try to remind people what made them great, especially technical things, like being the first team to get all level four elements in one competition (IIRC D&W were the first to do it in an FD, and V&M the first to do it in both segments). Certainly, with the Olympics in Russia, they also need to talk up how they have the qualities of the great Russia teams, in terms of lines, toepoint, etc.

  10. #890
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    Wow Cherub 721 - thank you for those really well-thought out comments! And right on. Just one comment about Marina - do you get a sense that she doesn't think she can do anymore with V&M? Like they're already at the peak of their potential and it's up to them to maintain it? Whereas the opposite is true of their rivals.

  11. #891

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddtpdx View Post
    OK. This is going to sound very cynical, but I believe that the battle will be won or lost off the ice (unless V/M skate perfectly and D/W have an obvious error - ie, fall - or the judges will keep it close, based on the double standard we've seen this season).

    Is it possible that V/M finally realize that social media can be a powerful tool and hence the choice of a choreographer with a twitter account for one of their programs?

    I think they need to control the narrative this season and be proactive, rather than reactive.
    Well there another new twitter pic of them so maybe you have something there about them realizing the importance of the media.

    Cherub I agree with everything you have to say. Marina seemed indifferent this season when it came to Tessa and Scott.
    "They’re everything in a team that we strive to be...they are to me the quintessential ice dance team of our time."~Kaitlyn Weaver

  12. #892
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueglass View Post
    Wow Cherub 721 - thank you for those really well-thought out comments! And right on. Just one comment about Marina - do you get a sense that she doesn't think she can do anymore with V&M? Like they're already at the peak of their potential and it's up to them to maintain it? Whereas the opposite is true of their rivals.
    No, I don't. This year's programs prove it. If she thought they couldn't do anything more, she would have them doing more Mahler. This year's program was so much more innovative and complex than anything they've ever done. It was a huge move forward for them. To me, this was supposed to be their "Feeling Begins".... like G&P, they are Olympic champions, and that was the dance that really broke them away from the pack, and made it clear that no one would overtake them in Nagano. I think V&M's plan was to make Carmen so unbelievably difficult that it would shock everyone and they would be considered the absolute favorites. They were promoting all their positive qualities early in the season such as new elements and Tessa's dance background (things that D&W don't have), really promoting themselves as the leaders.

    Marina seemed down with this, at first. She too made comments about how they were the leaders and it's important for the leaders to move forward. She also said they could break 200 points. If you read iggie's series, you can see how she was much more excited in the early season.

    IMO, she hedges her bets to try to make both teams happy, and then her comments move toward whatever the results are. By the end of the season, she wasn't saying they could break 200, and really didn't seem to give a shit how they scored at all.

  13. #893

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    A little late but this tag on Tumblr has some dances choreographed by Jean Marc Genereux
    I'm going to twizzle into a triple axel and spiral out of it.

  14. #894

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    Quote Originally Posted by shsocu View Post
    A little late but this tag on Tumblr has some dances choreographed by Jean Marc Genereux
    Thank you! I need to refresh my memory on some of those dances.

    I forgot to post the link to the new picture.
    "They’re everything in a team that we strive to be...they are to me the quintessential ice dance team of our time."~Kaitlyn Weaver

  15. #895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    No, I don't. This year's programs prove it. If she thought they couldn't do anything more, she would have them doing more Mahler. This year's program was so much more innovative and complex than anything they've ever done. It was a huge move forward for them. To me, this was supposed to be their "Feeling Begins".... like G&P, they are Olympic champions, and that was the dance that really broke them away from the pack, and made it clear that no one would overtake them in Nagano. I think V&M's plan was to make Carmen so unbelievably difficult that it would shock everyone and they would be considered the absolute favorites. They were promoting all their positive qualities early in the season such as new elements and Tessa's dance background (things that D&W don't have), really promoting themselves as the leaders.

    Marina seemed down with this, at first. She too made comments about how they were the leaders and it's important for the leaders to move forward. She also said they could break 200 points. If you read iggie's series, you can see how she was much more excited in the early season.
    I agree. Then it turned out that the judges didn't really care about new elements and innovative movement. (I'm very pleased that V/M took the route they did, regardless.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    IMO, she hedges her bets to try to make both teams happy, and then her comments move toward whatever the results are.
    It's inevitably a conflict of interest to coach both teams. And changing coaches this late in the game would be tough for either team. Marina wants to coach the next OGM, so either way she wins.

  16. #896

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    We should have a get together then. I will be at the Comfort Inn. Hoping to get DH to drive me there and back.
    Which Comfort Inn, if you don't mind sharing the location.
    Crazy about sports!

  17. #897
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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    Which Comfort Inn, if you don't mind sharing the location.
    The one in Kanata it said close to the rink.
    Luckiest 1 also booked there.

  18. #898

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    The one in Kanata it said close to the rink.
    Luckiest 1 also booked there.
    Sounds like the place to be!
    Crazy about sports!

  19. #899
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    Tessa posing with Florent Amodio at the Worlds banquet

    Source (posted in the 2013 Worlds photos thread in Kiss and Cry): http://www.figureskating-online.com/worlds-5.html
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  20. #900
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    Thanks Sylvia! Love them both! Her dress is similar to her earlier Carmen dress.

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