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  1. #261

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    You find something that's level 4 that's easy for you and just repeat it all the time.
    Yes, most teams doing the same spin durin 10 years. And we saw, V-M use old one too at WCh. Its was so beautifull - like he lookes on her face
    But i think D-W jump into spin was impressive. Just think V-M original spin was more like part of the dance, but not just element.

    I think next season V-M need to do SS at the begining and spin - on fresh feets. If D-W puted all three lifts in the end and this was OK for judges, i think V-M could use this too.
    And as for twizzles. Yes, D-W have super twozzles, very fast. But you didnt see there jumps, becasue they are too fast and you couldnt.
    What i like in V-M twizzles - it cover a lot of ice and i like how this twizzles have the end with music.

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcg View Post
    D&W are ice skaters, V&M are ice dancers.
    I disagree with this statement incredibly strongly, but without getting into D/W at all, would you care to share what other current skaters are "ice dancers". I'm honestly interested to know.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I disagree with this statement incredibly strongly, but without getting into D/W at all, would you care to share what other current skaters are "ice dancers". I'm honestly interested to know.
    Not really. Appreciate your interest though.

  4. #264

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I disagree with this statement incredibly strongly, but without getting into D/W at all, would you care to share what other current skaters are "ice dancers". I'm honestly interested to know.
    I my opinion, Capelinni-Lanotte is a brilliant dancers and could compete in baalroom dancing, but not very strong skaters.
    P-B (IMHO) good dancers and good skaters.
    I think Platov made very dancing programs for Penny and Nikolas.
    And i think Zach Donahue is great dancer.
    Plas i think a lot off depend from how coaches working with there teams. For example B-S. I couldnt say they are best dancers, but Zhulin did for them programs with a lot off diffrerent body-moves, with moves from modern ballet and this look amazing (IMHO).

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    Thanks for replying pani. I really appreciate your thoughts on it. It sounds like bmcg either doesn't want to play along or thinks VM are the only skaters worthy of being called dancers...

    I agree with you that C/L are gorgeous dancers.

    I really like V/M as dancers, but I also like D/W. I just don't see how being a fan of one team means that you have to completely dismiss everything the other team does. I found it very rude to say that D/W are not ice dancers at all.

  6. #266
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    Just doesn't want to play along with, your last paragraph explains why.

  7. #267

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I really like V/M as dancers, but I also like D/W. I just don't see how being a fan of one team means that you have to completely dismiss everything the other team does. I found it very rude to say that D/W are not ice dancers at all.
    Wasnt this rud all time from last season talk about how V-M are bad and and D-W must win in Nice? Or all this talk about Devil Scott? If i dont want read about this, i am not reading D-W thread
    I am strongly sure people, who really love both teams (i cant imaging this, because of very different style of both, but what i know?) couldnt see the difference in dancing ability of this 4 people. And, of couse. see difference between Scott and Charlie body moves (i am not talking about Tessa). And see which FD is better and have new elements.
    So like i see why S-S lose to V-T at this WCh. I love both girls (Alyoan and Tanya), but i see there strong and weak points. And i see, that this season S-S didnt have such a good programs, like last season.
    Last edited by pani; 03-20-2013 at 02:55 PM.

  8. #268
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    Sadly, new elements don't score points. I'm thankful ice dancers don't seem to repeat their program one year to the next like singles skaters often will.

    It is very difficult to judge 'better' free dances, because the skaters are doing different things. Personal preference really shouldn't be a judging point, but execution of the style they danced, as well as the execution of the elements. In that regard, I think D/Ws free dance is just as good as V/Ms. My thoughts on D/W are better suited for another thread, so I won't get into it. But since the free dances are so different, I don't think you can compare them head to head, but rather against the standards written in the rulebook. It is criterion referenced, not norm-referenced, to borrow some terms from my industry.

    I think V/M were really hurt by the lack of compulsory dances. They were very precise and very good at them.


    As for trash talking in the D-W thread, I don't particpate in that, and I don't know if I read the ice dance threads much last year, so I really can't say.

  9. #269
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    I felt that SS program was weak as well. I love them usually for their unusual choreo but not this year.

    I think I prefer something like Zhulin's comparison of the top two ice dance teams. D&W more technicians and VM more artists.
    Both teams are athletic but VM transcends the merely athletic!

  10. #270

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    It is very difficult to judge 'better' free dances,
    Just because you didnt pay attention to upbody moves. Its easy run when your doby didnt work, just hand moves.
    As for new elements. Sorry, but isnt this made dance more interesting? I mean its boring to see the same lifts frome year to year, the same linking steps. When your body didnt work in music rythm - its not ice DANCING, sirry.
    Did you think this is best D-W FD? I think this i sonly one FD they skated from year to year.
    Its like long time ice dancing fans talked about V-M all the time before this season.
    I am happy for you, that you are happy to see the same thing from year to year, but not all FS like this. And the worast thing is D-W will never show something out of box. Why? I think because they couldnt move in different way. But they could prove i am wrong in next season.

  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    Not me; I wanted them to win.
    I wanted them to win. Well, I wanted both, but I really wanted them to win. They are one of the best teams that we have ever seen in this sport. They're going to be the ones remembered as legends. I just find it infuriating that an inferior team keeps getting placed over them.

    To be honest, I wonder if a lot of fans of that dramatic style of ice dancing with beautiful lines and deep edges have just given up on ice dancing in general, and that's maybe why V&M aren't getting the support. I was talking to a friend who used to be a huge fan of ice dancing and they said they could not bear to watch anymore as CoP has sucked out a lot of interesting details and with the elimination of the CD and destroying the OD. I notice a lot of the FSU posters that used to be really into ice dance barely commented on Worlds. FSU used to have some great discussions analyzing all the dances, the politiks, the technik of all top couples... and now that seems to be left to the uber threads.
    I think you're correct that a lot of ice dance fans have likely given up. We spent years learning what was good ice dance, but since the introduction of COP, it's been thrown out the window. The things that mattered for decades in ice dance--the things we fell in love with--aren't being valued anymore. When something you love is being pushed to look like something else entirely... I think more and more people are going to slip away as more time passes--myself included as I doubt I'll continue to watch after next season if things continue on this trajectory.

    I remember all of the great discussions there were over the years. We just don't see them anymore. But, then again, how can you have a critical discussion of skating when people don't even want to accept that there are long held standards in the sport or actually bother to learn about proper technique, mechanics, etc., and instead focus on superficial (and fake) things.


    Quote Originally Posted by zotza View Post
    I think this happens because especially as time goes by with CoP ice dancing is turning into a more political event than it ever was. Everything that was good about the sport is getting destroyed little by little.
    ITA, Zotza. COP was supposed to do away with the politics, instead it's made things worse, all while stripping everything good away little by little. At the beginning of this season, I told Carmen O. that I thought this season was going to be a litmus test as to what mattered now--did good dancing, superior skating skills, etc. still matter? I think the answer is no, they don't, not really. They matter to us. They matter to our team. But it doesn't matter in the scoring and results. Given that the lower teams are driven by what is rewarded vs. what is not, they're going to go even further away from what ice dancing once was.

    If a program is judged difficulty wise using just 8 elements then it's not fair to all these skaters that want to add. And yes, one can argue that it's all about the PCS then,but how is this really used? How are transitions used and why do they actually try to make ice dancing into a " stay on your two feet ,do nothing and get the marks" kind of sport.
    ITA, again. The thing I loved about 6.0 was that it had a built in flexibility to encompass and take into account everything a skater was doing. EVERYTHING was taken into account, not just 8 elements. The PCS is a joke because it's not being properly used. Same with GOE. Those marks are being inflated and deflated as necessary for certain teams...

    V/M risked,which means that if you risk you should get more credit even in case you're not perfectly crisp and crystal clear.Because you risk,and this is what sport is supposed to be.
    I am always intrigued by the twizzles of the top couples. There are levels being given,rules on how to give them, and yet it always strikes me that people who don't do a catch foot position, have the obligatory little jump,but are painfully slow shouldn't be given level 4. Yet, almost all of the couples are being given a level 4. So maybe one should take the technical panel and make them do the actual twizzles themselves.
    But here's the thing; V/M were crisp and clear. The idea that they weren't or were struggling this year was a meme egged on by the hijinks in the scoring.

    The discipline needs a serious check up,not to say open heart surgery right now.
    Perfect analogy. Ice dance need emergency open heart surgery for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcg View Post
    D&W are ice skaters, V&M are ice dancers.

    I guess the ISU needs to clarify what this discipline is supposed to be. At the moment it seems to favour ice skaters.
    That's the way I see it as well: D/W are skaters. V/M are dancers.

    There definitely needs to be some clarification. It seems like the ISU wants adagio pairs instead of ice dance. If that is the case, they need to create a 5th discipline for adagio pairs and let ice dance get back to being about dance, or they just need to let ice dance go all together.

    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    I think they want to get out ice dance from OG. Thats why they made this SD, give teams 10th in PCS - all for people start hating ice dance
    I want to ask people from D-W thread - what must we talking about to make you happy, guys?
    I've wondered too if they want it gone, Pani. After 2002, the ISU was told by the IOC to clean up dance, or it was gone. Maybe the ISU is making it dirtier to force the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I think some people would disagree regarding posture (Drobiazko, Bourne) and edge quality (Chait, Margaglio). However, poor quality skaters have also medalled under the CoP (Goncharov, Kostomarov) so it has not solved whatever it was supposed to solve.
    I get where you're coming from--there were some top skaters and top teams who had some issues under 6.0 as well. The Duscheney's come to mind as well in that they weren't as good in the basics as K/P and U/Z. BUT, I do think it was harder to win back in the day if you had those sorts of issues and it was less common to medal if you had a ton of issues with your basic skating skills and dance fundamentals. Now, it just doesn't seem to matter so long as you can chuck the elements.

    ITA, but I will add I don't see anywhere V&M were not crisp and crystal clear in their FD. It was excellent.
    THIS.

    That has always annoyed me about CoP. You find something that's level 4 that's easy for you and just repeat it all the time. No credit is given for added difficulty once you're at level 4, and no credit is given in PCS for the originality of the positions or how well they fit the program. I mean I&K usually get level 4 lifts and great PCS and they have terrible lifts.
    This is the WORST. Not all level 4's were created equally and it is not reflected in the scoring. If anything, instead of being rewarded for having additional difficulty, you get penalized for it.

  12. #272
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    As for new elements. Sorry, but isnt this made dance more interesting? I mean its boring to see the same lifts frome year to year, the same linking steps.
    There is nothing in the scoring system that accounts for this. As a fan, yes, I agree. But this has nothing to do with how they are judged.

    Just because you didnt pay attention to upbody moves. Its easy run when your doby didnt work, just hand moves.
    When did I say I didn't pay attention to that? I thought both free dances were wonderful, and I haven't voiced my preference and I'm not sure I haveone, and I don't think they should be judged against each other- because that is not how figure skating is judged. It does not matter one bit what other teams do on the ice, you are only scored for what you did on the ice. In the end, that does result in a 'better', but better in reference to the criteria it has to fit, you are thinking too much about the artistry of dance, and as a sport, that is not the only thing that matters. Art is incredibly subjective- have you ever been to a modern art museum? I don't think half that crap should be art, but people pay millions for that. I happen to think both V/M and D/W are great artists.

    Do you watch Dancesport as well? Because technicians often win there over artists. Have you ever watched a ballet competition? Oh man, the uproar about the lack of artistry in the winners, who are trained to do the steps exactly, but nothing but that single variation, happen after every single one.

    Art and sport are not the same thing. If ice dance should only be about an athletic art, it shouldn't be an olympic sport.

  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Sadly, new elements don't score points. I'm thankful ice dancers don't seem to repeat their program one year to the next like singles skaters often will.

    It is very difficult to judge 'better' free dances, because the skaters are doing different things. Personal preference really shouldn't be a judging point, but execution of the style they danced, as well as the execution of the elements. In that regard, I think D/Ws free dance is just as good as V/Ms. My thoughts on D/W are better suited for another thread, so I won't get into it. But since the free dances are so different, I don't think you can compare them head to head, but rather against the standards written in the rulebook. It is criterion referenced, not norm-referenced, to borrow some terms from my industry.

    I think V/M were really hurt by the lack of compulsory dances. They were very precise and very good at them.


    As for trash talking in the D-W thread, I don't particpate in that, and I don't know if I read the ice dance threads much last year, so I really can't say.
    Many of the points made in this forum indicate that we don't agree that these standards are or can be properly applied to reflect when VM (or other teams)vary positions or postures which add difficulty to an element. Naturally we will compare VM to DW to support this opinion to demonstrate where we, and others who may be more qualified (other coaches and people in the figure skating world) have expressed this same opinion. It's not just a question of personal style preference; I think some very eloquent arguements have been made here and elsewhere which list the things that VM do which appear to be underrepresented.

    As far as the bashing goes in the DW thread, apparently we all now have some mental illness which explains why we cannot believe that DW deserve to beat VM.

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    I my opinion, Capelinni-Lanotte is a brilliant dancers and could compete in baalroom dancing, but not very strong skaters.
    P-B (IMHO) good dancers and good skaters.
    I think Platov made very dancing programs for Penny and Nikolas.
    And i think Zach Donahue is great dancer.
    Plas i think a lot off depend from how coaches working with there teams. For example B-S. I couldnt say they are best dancers, but Zhulin did for them programs with a lot off diffrerent body-moves, with moves from modern ballet and this look amazing (IMHO).
    That's a good list, Pani. I think I/K can dance to. W/P, IMO, are sort of in that category as B/S, but more towards the dancing end of the spectrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    Just because you didnt pay attention to upbody moves. Its easy run when your doby didnt work, just hand moves.
    As for new elements. Sorry, but isnt this made dance more interesting? I mean its boring to see the same lifts frome year to year, the same linking steps. When your body didnt work in music rythm - its not ice DANCING, sirry.
    Did you think this is best D-W FD? I think this i sonly one FD they skated from year to year.
    Its like long time ice dancing fans talked about V-M all the time before this season.
    I am happy for you, that you are happy to see the same thing from year to year, but not all FS like this. And the worast thing is D-W will never show something out of box. Why? I think because they couldnt move in different way. But they could prove i am wrong in next season.
    One thing I always try to do is turn off the music, block out the wild arm waving and hair flinging, and look past the smoke and mirrors to what's really going on. There's no question that what V/M do is more difficult. The intricacy, closeness, and interdependence of their moves (as opposed to knee slides and pirouettes and lots of running steps).... not to mention that everything V/M do comes from the blade up. It's not just window dressing the program to make it look difficult.

    And that's another thing. The old standard used to be that the goal was to make the difficult look easy. D/W are great at making the difficult look difficult. V/M are masters of making the difficult look effortless and easy. But when you get into the mechanics of what's going on, what V/M is doing is far more difficult.

    Carmen, IMO, is the most difficult and complex FD of all time (at this point). Notre Dame was a retread of a program D/W have been doing for years now.

  15. #275
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    I'm a little uncomfortable with the way the issues are being framed here, even by the V&M fans, to be honest: sport vs. art, athlete vs. artist, fast vs. slow, and skaters vs. dancers.

    It is not one vs the other. It's on a continuum. D&W are not unartistic or completely unable to dance, nor are V&M unathletic or slow. It's a matter of who has what, to what degree, and how it plays into the scoring.

    This is playing into the old Susie Wynne saying "It's just so close that now it all depends on what the judges like!"

    I certainly don't see any better skaters than V&M in the ice dance competition.

    Yes, I prefer V&M artistically. That's why I like them. But it isn't why I think they deserve to win (certainly the FD at Worlds, and by enough to win overall). IMO they deserve to win based on the skating criteria found in the components marks.

    I don't have time to watch and analyze right now, but for skating skills I would look at things like the multi-directional skating in V&M's programs; their ability to stop on a dime, then build up effortless speed; the flow and speed through their YP pattern (easiest way to compare speed between couples); their ability to hold a position or an edge, etc. Those things aren't all that subjective.

    In terms of "danceability" I would look at things like things like carriage both in and out of the step sequences; holding the core during, before, and after a lift (not just jockeying into position); spatial awareness and the ability to move in sync; the timing of elements and changes of position within an element to the music, etc.

    And IMO V&M are the best at these, by some way.

  16. #276
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    Notre Dame is a re-tread, the elements are retreads. There's nothing wrong with that if all elements and components are legitimately the best, or "equal", when done well, to what is being put on the ice by their main competition. Ice dance isn't like some sports where the best are handicapped to level the playing field. If a difficult move comes easily to someone, that doesn't make it less difficult. It means the athlete is talented and fortunate. That shouldn't get some downgrade or handicap to level the playing field.

    But are the elements DW do in Notre Dame, and all the programs that preceded Notre Dame, and is their execution of these elements legitimately the best or at least equal to their main competition, which is Virtue Moir?

    I think they're not even close. The actual skating linking the elements isn't close. It's this that is crazy and unfair. The competition is artifical. DW are getting the highest scores for simpler everything - objectively simpler, not just easy for them - and lesser quality of basic skating. Worse, their signature elements such as the twizzles have so many flaws compared to Virtue Moir that "old" twizzles are the least of it.

    The attributes Davis White are supposed to possess - let's start with speed - do they really possess them compared to Virtue Moir. When we're told Davis White are fast, the implication is "fast-ER" isn't it. Otherwise, why would it be such a point in their win column? I don't believe I've heard a commentator say they're faster than Virtue Moir. I just hear they're fast. How come the commentator doesn't say faster?

    It's all a lot of word play and spin.


    Yuna Kim is perfectly right to do her luz flip combo the same as she did in 2010. It is the gold medal standard jump combination. The tech of it plus how she does it. It wouldn't be fair to make her do a three loop/three loop - she doesn't do the loop at all - to make it more fair. The unfairness happened when she was born with a body made for figure skating and the ability to do a gigantic lutz combination.

    It would be unfair if she did a 3 toe 3 toe and just a good one, not even a great one, and received the same level and points as a more difficult combination or someone's triple axel, done superbly. That's the better comparison to the situation Virtue and Moir are with Davis White. It's the saying of having to be twice as good just to be considered level. That's Virtue Moir.

    Over and over fans and media claim DW have the best twizzles. Do they have the best twizzles? Are they the fastest team? Is the ISU assigning levels appropriately? Is it truly harder to enter twizzles the way DW enter them? The physics of it. It doesn't matter if it's easy for DW. It matters if the physics of it challenges the skaters to the degree of Level 4; not if DW can easily master those physics. I consider the physics of it and think hmmm.

    There's so much to challenge in DW's twizzles besides the level the twizzles are assigned. It doesn't matter that they do the same ones over and over. What does is pretending these twizzles are as good as Virtue Moir's twizzles. Scott and Tessa's aren't better because they're new twizzles but because they're better quality. Quality is defined differently for DW than for Virtue Moir and that's the scandal.

    The fact of the matter is this: the only thing that should matter in how a partiuclar performance is marked is what a team does in that particular performance. What happened at the last competition, early in the year, or the season before should have zero bearing. Heck, what happens in the SD should have no bearing on the FD scores. We see this playing out in pairs and singles. The slate is wiped clean between each competetion and in between each segment.
    Yes. The press in the lead up to this Worlds was clubbing us over the head with agenda. It wasn't ever insinuated that Patrick winning worlds would be wrong because he was third at the Grand Prix Final. Virtue and Moir were being insulted via insinuation prior to worlds.

    There are standards applied in the media that they use only on Virtue Moir. Virtue Moir are the skaters some people want to handicap ahead of the game.

    You can't win - you lost last time. She had a cramp - let's revisit the rule that's been in place years and years and we never minded it before. VM used it so it must be shady.

    What else can we do to rip the skates out from under them? How about they faked the cramp because they were afraid to lose to Davis White? Yes, after winning the short dance no doubt Virtue Moir were up all night shaking in their skate boots over their inability to compete with Notre Dame.

    Finally, again from a media and public relations standpoint, old tactics are in play here. Turn it around so the people who are victims are made to look like the bully - and the bullies play victim.

    The media sort of frames it that DW are better, but, boo hiss, VM are some type of Canadian Fed steamroller set to deprive DW of what they deserve. Meantime, it is VM who get pieces of flesh stripped off them time and again. This latest spin on twitter and other places about the injury time out is just the latest instance. Other skaters who stopped and resumed after an injury on ice are courageous. And this rule has been in effect for years. Skaters have medaled under this rule. But now, it benefits VM somehow. Don't ask me how it benefited them because they lost the free dance after winning the short and ended up in second place after winning the event last year. The spin, though, is VM knew they couldn't compete with Notre Dame, so they faked a cramp as to have an excuse for the loss that was coming anyway. Yes, that Notre Dame program was killer.

    ETA: I'm trying to approach this from the same perspective as Cherub, but saying it differently. We must have posted at the same time.
    Last edited by Subway; 03-20-2013 at 04:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    There is nothing in the scoring system that accounts for this. As a fan, yes, I agree. But this has nothing to do with how they are judged. .
    And i think this is big problem. I dont think its good when team use in all there lifts rotational kift on patner shoulders. And another two variations is she stay on his leg.
    I think You didnt answer - did you think D-W FD is best they ever had?
    Ib ice dance we have levels and Goes - sport part and PCS - artistic mark. So its haif art and half sport. Why i didnt see this in marks? This is my bigerst problem.
    Thankd you didnt said D-W FD is better in this thread. The love is in our eyes.
    Honestly i have big hope this risk and hard work will be paid off fo V-M next season. And judges will open there eyes And canadian judges at last will be at OG. And Blumberg will not wok at OG. And Tessa will be healthy and comfident.

    Guys, did you notice, Marina didnt loo good in this season? Last season she looked great, but not now. Interesting, what happened?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    I think You didnt answer - did you think D-W FD is best they ever had?
    Personally, I prefered Phantom. Although, the FD is my least favorite of the parts of the ice dance competition. I originally prefered compulsory, but now I do like the short dance.

    Ib ice dance we have levels and Goes - sport part and PCS - artistic mark. So its haif art and half sport.
    Half is not art. The program components are not the old 'artistic mark'. I think only interpretation and choreography can be considered artistic. The others to me are technical. I don't really understand why the skaters are judged for choreography, quite frankly, as they do not do their own choreography, to me, that is a mark that can be bought- someone who can hire a better choreographer. Though I suppose some of it has to do with ability to execute the choreography, but then, is that artistic? Or does that become technical?


    I am really excited for next season. To me, the best competition is the one where everyone skate to the absolute pinnacle of their ability. I hope Tessa is healthy, and it looks like they aren't going to WTT, so she may be able to rest.

    Guys, did you notice, Marina didnt loo good in this season? Last season she looked great, but not now. Interesting, what happened?
    I wonder if coaching so many teams without a partner really got to her. I still wish we had better details about what caused the split.

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Half is not art. The program components are not the old 'artistic mark'. I think only interpretation and choreography can be considered artistic. The others to me are technical. I don't really understand why the skaters are judged for choreography, quite frankly, as they do not do their own choreography, to me, that is a mark that can be bought- someone who can hire a better choreographer. Though I suppose some of it has to do with ability to execute the choreography, but then, is that artistic? Or does that become technical?
    The choreography mark is supposed to measure some technical things like the distribution of the elements and the pattern across the ice. I think it's also meant to show equal workload between the partners... you're not supposed to get away with having the woman twizzling around while the man glides on two feet anymore.

    But I do think it's somewhat redundant when there is already a bonus for jumps in the second half, and there is overlap with the skating skills mark (ice coverage), interpretation (phrasing), and transitions.

    FWIW this is from the isu site:
    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

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    http://pmd.fan590.com/podcasts/brady...r-20---7am.mp3

    Scott radio interview. He said they will not made WTT. They take with week off and then will start early preparartion for the next season before SCOI.
    They made D-W promrtion (like alwayse) and Cahn promotion (who care about Scott?). And i cant understand. I understand like Scott will faster then Patrick in hockey staes but will not have chance in figure skates?
    And isnt this stupid to ask ice dancer who will be faster? This show all we now have in ice dance. And they all time takin D-W and Chan. And they like team competitions- amazing.

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