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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    Well here's a few thoughts to "chew" on. IF we want V/M to come out of the gate in the next season more ready, they should

    1) recycle a number of their lifts. After all, there would be muscle memory and they wouldn't have to learn them again
    2) take speed skating lessons to learn how to do short, choppy steps and show the judges just how "fast" they are travelling
    3) Scott needs to grow his hair long, dye it blond and make it curly so he has "magical hair"
    4) Tessa needs to lose weight cause we can't have her looking fit; she needs to look "ethereal"
    5) we need not just Canadian media, but the entire world (minus the U.S.) to speak to how good V/M are and how deserving they are of winning gold in Sochi and how hard they work and train. Oh yeah, and have articles about Tessa's having family links to people in Russia. Get the Canadian PR machine working OT, starting right now. Oh yeah, and we should have continual articles about how so many fans came up to V/M saying that they should have won, well at least the FD.

    Have I covered everything? OK, now you guys know I'm just teasing with that list, right? Tongue planted firmly in cheek and all!
    You're funny . . . but you forgot about developping a newfoundconnection.

  2. #202

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    Cachoo I can see what you're saying. Why not Tessa and Scott stick with what works? You know, their trademark programs? Well because they're artists and artists take risks. I'm glad they have decided not to rest on their laurels and keep stretching themselves. Like sequins I feel frustrated because there's nothing we can do. I wish there was a way that we can make our voice be heard. The analysis here is absolutely spot on and that's why I feel Marina can't give them her best. I want a coach that absolutely feels they are the best, would definitively say so, and would fight for them in public about why they are the best. I want a coach that would get mad for them for not being rewarded for such a groundbreaking program and wouldn't be afraid of comparing the difference in quality between the two teams; a coach that can go in-depth with her critique and doesn't have to worry about throwing the other team under the bus out of allegiance. Right now Marina can't do that for both. We should type up these analysis and send them off to PJ, Tracey, and the ISU. (I was going to put J/K on that last sentence, but I don't think I am).
    Last edited by Shayii; 03-19-2013 at 06:26 PM.

  3. #203
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    Shayii

  4. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    Cachoo I can see what you're saying. Why not Tessa and Scott stick with what works? You know, their trademark programs? Well because they're artists and artists take risks. I'm glad hey have decided not to rest on their laurels and keep stretching themselves. Like sequins I feel frustrated because there's nothing we can do. I wish there was a way that we can make our voice be heard. The analysis here is absolutely spot on and that's why I feel Marina can't give them her best. I want a coach that absolutely feels they are the best and would fight for them in public about why they are the best. I want a coach that would get mad for them for not being rewarded for such a groundbreaking program and wouldn't be afraid of comparing the difference in quality between the two teams; a coach that can go in-depth with her critique and doesn't have to worry about throwing the other team under the bus out of allegiance. Right now Marina can't do that for both. We should type up these analysis and send them off to PJ, Tracey, and the ISU. (I was going to put J/K on that last sentence, but I don't think I am).
    Shayii, everyone who want to send there thoughts to the ISU. could did this on ISU facebook page.

  5. #205
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    I am more than okay with PJ reading this, but she can't do anything, she's just a journalist. What she can do, however, is provide a forum for debate. She does have a blog and a podcast. It sure is a fascinating topic. But would it accomplish anything? I am not too sure.

    But I would like to see these things discussed on the media. No one debates about figure skating anymore these days and when they do it is about: "OMG, Voir are so perfect, they're, like, so boring. And Tessa is, like, heavy while Merlie are, like, so exciting and OMG, their hair is SO pretty! And Patrick Chan fell again and he WON, thank god Canada didn't cheat in dance too."

    So, yeah, it is too superficial, not to mention idiotic. There are many knowledgeable people in both fan bases. If the debate were a bit more public, many interesting things would happen. Again, not saying it would solve anything, but we would at least be discussing the sport on a more public forum and that puts the sport a little bit more "out there". I miss those days.

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    You're right it might not change anything, it probably wouldn't, but at least it'll still be out there.

    And thanks Cherub.

  7. #207
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    Like I said, I'm all for it. If only for the debate possibilities! How to go about it, though?

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golightly View Post
    I am more than okay with PJ reading this, but she can't do anything, she's just a journalist. What she can do, however, is provide a forum for debate. She does have a blog and a podcast. It sure is a fascinating topic. But would it accomplish anything? I am not too sure.

    But I would like to see these things discussed on the media. No one debates about figure skating anymore these days and when they do it is about: "OMG, Voir are so perfect, they're, like, so boring. And Tessa is, like, heavy while Merlie are, like, so exciting and OMG, their hair is SO pretty! And Patrick Chan fell again and he WON, thank god Canada didn't cheat in dance too."

    So, yeah, it is too superficial, not to mention idiotic. There are many knowledgeable people in both fan bases. If the debate were a bit more public, many interesting things would happen. Again, not saying it would solve anything, but we would at least be discussing the sport on a more public forum and that puts the sport a little bit more "out there". I miss those days.
    It may not change anything, but like you said, it would be out there and perhaps provoke a real discussion about what really counts in figure skating and ice dancing. You're right that the press seems to focus on the superficial--the hair, the personalities, etc. like it was some reality show instead of a sport. I want skating to be treated like a real sport, with analysis that really gets down into the technical side of things.

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    The HD copies of the SD are starting to arrive on youtube.

    Here's Tessa & Scott's SD, British Eurosport coverage:
    Tessa Virtue & Scott Moir
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXRXjF_AOw

  10. #210
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    Talking of reworking.... I would love to see a modern sensual version of Umbrellas.

    All this politiking talk is so upsetting. I love both VM & Chan and its so unfair that only one can win.

    That why I retreat to my own bubble and just enjoy .... its self preservation.

    I agree though that its hard to diffrentiate one DW program from the other - they all have the same flutter flutter feel to them. Fledermaus is the only one that I can slightly remember as the music is so catchy and she did the new on his shoulder lift which was repeated this year.

    But I can really remember every one of their FDs since Valse Triste!

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    Well here's a few thoughts to "chew" on. IF we want V/M to come out of the gate in the next season more ready, they should

    1) recycle a number of their lifts. After all, there would be muscle memory and they wouldn't have to learn them again
    So, if they're recycling lifts, that means they can reuse the rotational fromt he end of Carmen, right?

    2) take speed skating lessons to learn how to do short, choppy steps and show the judges just how "fast" they are travelling
    Yes, excellent idea. Are there any speed skating coaches in Detroit, or will they have to bring one in?

    3) Scott needs to grow his hair long, dye it blond and make it curly so he has "magical hair"
    Absolutely. Also, Tessa needs to grow hers out even longer so that it will whip around during their performances.

    4) Tessa needs to lose weight cause we can't have her looking fit; she needs to look "ethereal"
    I suppose she'll also have to stop working out with Maria Mountain. Being ripped and being ethreal don't go hand-in-hand. She'll have to lose muscle mass anyway to lose weight since there's really not any fat on that girl at all....

    5) we need not just Canadian media, but the entire world (minus the U.S.) to speak to how good V/M are and how deserving they are of winning gold in Sochi and how hard they work and train. Oh yeah, and have articles about Tessa's having family links to people in Russia. Get the Canadian PR machine working OT, starting right now. Oh yeah, and we should have continual articles about how so many fans came up to V/M saying that they should have won, well at least the FD.
    Forget the Virtue "French Family." The now have a "Russian Family." Pani, you can loan them some relatives for this correct?

    However, I think there's a couple things there that they could look at doing if they are serious about winning next season instead of just leaving a legacy.

    First, stop with the crazy and all brand new lifts (although that would make me sad cause that's part of what I look forward to seeing). Use a couple from the past few years. Works for D/W, why shouldn't V/M do likewise? It would mean less new things to learn.
    This one kills me, and I already said this above, but they've got to dial back on the difficulty. Difficulty and originality are not rewarded in ice dance anymore. Once upon a time, challenging yourself technically and artistically every year was considered a given if you wanted to win titles, but that's clearly not the case anymore. They should let it go for next year; they can invent new things once they've retired from the competitive circuit.

    Also, I think Skate Canada needs to "politik" better with the media -- especially once the GP season begins. They need to talk up V/M, create hype and optimism. Get reporters of sports - not just figure skating one - on board.
    SC has got to do this. They need to be focusing on their once-in-a-generation OGM ice dance team and not the team that just finished 18th at worlds.

    Change coaches. Yeah, I know they likely won't do such a thing, but it bothers me a great deal that all the things that have made V/M so successful are being copied by their training mates. They need to be in an environment where that kind of thing won't be happening. I know, next to impossible that such would happen, but I can still wish.
    Absolutely. I've talked about reasons to change coaches already today, but you bring up an excellent point that D/W are copying so much that have made V/M so sucessful. Seriously, D/W just say they have the same thing that V/M do and then suddenly, they have that trait too, even if it's not evident in their skating. V/M are not benefitting AT ALL from D/W seeing every move they make. No, D/W can't do what V/M can on ice, but they're still controlling the rhetoric in the press and part of it is coming from the fact that they (D/W) always know what's up with V/M. One example: There are rumors floating around that Tessa's been dealing with an ankle injury. In their pre-worlds press conference, D/W made it a talking point about how healthy they are. D/W do not need to be privy to that sort of information that they can feed to the press and their fed for purposes of politicking against V/M. If V/M are having injury issues, confidence issues, come up with something new that's really cool, choose to emphasize this, that, or the other, or whatever else is going on, D/W do not need to know it. If they know it, it just gets used against V/M. Not cool.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    I agree though that its hard to diffrentiate one DW program from the other - they all have the same flutter flutter feel to them. Fledermaus is the only one that I can slightly remember as the music is so catchy and she did the new on his shoulder lift which was repeated this year.

    But I can really remember every one of their FDs since Valse Triste!
    Emdee, if you go back and rewatch their FD's from 08-09 to now, if you didn't know the year and couldn't hear the music, you wouldn't really know they were skating a different program except for changes in costume. Well, to be fair, the element order does change from year-to-year. I think.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka_gerbil View Post
    Emdee, if you go back and rewatch their FD's from 08-09 to now, if you didn't know the year and couldn't hear the music, you wouldn't really know they were skating a different program except for changes in costume. Well, to be fair, the element order does change from year-to-year. I think.
    I know I made my sisters do this and they were in shock! Maybe the most original was the bollywood but even that paled when you compared it to Farrucas.

    You could never do this with T&S. Nothing generic about them.

  14. #214
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    Just want to clarify on my post from yesterday, because I think I was just feeling 'let down' and maybe 'sentimenal' at that time, that while I'm happy to see V/M skate always no matter what. I do care about the result, I do care that they are being shafted but sometimes I get so tired of it. I hoped this judging system was better and I don't know right now if it's the judging system, the judges themselves, the politics etc. probably all of those things, that are producing these results. Maybe being Canadian to I just wish we didn't have to go down this road, what seems like all the time. From B&K, S&P, Elvis, Patrick, Jeff, seems like we always have to defend their reputations and fight for what we feel they deserve. We shouldn't always have to fight, and with V/M I never thought we'd have to they are that good and have done NOTHING to deserve this.
    What you've just said struck me. I'd like to comment.

    That's a list of very different skaters. Some are more deserving of "fight" than others. To come at the situation with a list as if we're always screwed and here's the list is something that can be used against you or anyone who has that feeling.

    For instance. Elvis Stoiko is a multiple world champion, right? He could jump. He was slow, and he couldn't spin to save his life. His big calling card was he had a very macho, masculine style that was popular. It positioned him against Mr. Puffy Shirt Alexei Urmanov who represented a lot of what makes people uncomfortable with men figure skating - silly looking moves, puffy shirts, trilly music. Yet Urmanov was a more complete skater than Stoiko and he had the jumps. He's not as crowd pleasing, but that's a style issue.

    The Stoiko versus "Someone Else" debate was often about what Stoiko represented, even more than the skating. But if he were Russian it would be a Plushenko thing "He can only jump."

    Sale & Pelletier I was not a fan. The original result in 2002 was correct. To me Bereshznaya and Sikhuerlidze have more in common with Virtue Moir than Sale & Pelletier, especially in how 2002 was handled and the media manipulated.

    I would never fight for Bourne & Kratz. Virtue Moir - every day and twice on Sundays. Very different teams. One is in a different league than the other, and a different league than everyone skating today. That wasn't the case with Bourne & Kratz. They deserved to be in the mix and they were, and they have a World title. Did they deserve more?

    Long story short. Defend figure skating, not figure skaters or "our figure skaters." Fans of Virtue and Moir are fans of the best ice dancers in the world today. They don't belong on a list of skaters who may or may not have deserved to do better. At least not that list.

    I don't think I'm being clear but it's more than fandom. It's important to make distinctions and focus on why Virtue and Moir deserve our support and deserve a loud defense. It's because they are the best skaters. That's what we're defending when we defend them.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by sequins View Post
    We shouldn't always have to fight, and with V/M I never thought we'd have to they are that good and have done NOTHING to deserve this.
    In the past, I have been a fan of other teams and skaters who I felt were shafted in the judging. I'm not Canadian; I'm just a fan of great skating, no matter what country it's coming from. I never in a million years dreamed that V/M would be a team that would receive this kind of treatment. No, they didn't do anything to deserve this. They are a once-in-a-generation talent and they should be recongized as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golightly View Post
    Carmen, I do not disagree. I think you misunderstood what I meant. I am not happy about the way the season went, I think V-M deserved better. They had outstanding material that, for some reason, was never truly embraced by the judges. On that I agree with you completely.

    Now, that is one thing. My personal enjoyment of both programs is another. My happiness has nothing to do with their results, I am not asking anyone to feel happy because they lost. I am saying that I am glad that they decided to be ambitious and I am thankful to them for giving us these two incredible programs this season because I, as a fan of the sport, can appreciate what they tried to and, yes, succeeded to do.
    Golightly, I wanted to positive rep you for this post, but I can't rep you again right now. I just wanted to say that I genuinely admire your ability to not let the rest of what's going on get in the way of your enjoyment of the programs.

    Of course it is unfair that two mistakes on the short dance saw them more than three points behind. That was not necessary and the fact that most of the gap came from GOE and PCS is even more infuriating, I understand that. Of course it is not fair that, again, the subjective marks were the difference in the free dance.
    It is incredibly unfair that those two mistakes put them 3 points behind and completely out of contention before they skated their FD. The overall quality of what V/M do should have been able to have absorbed those mistakes. It is not V/M's score I object to; it's the one D/W received. V/M skated a 73 point program. D/W did NOT skate a 77 point one though. They were overmarked, plain and simple. Not only that, they were overmarked before V/M ever set foot on the ice to skate their SD.

    It is not that V-M’s programs need to be polished since the very beginning, they never are! And, hey, that’s logical: they like to work their programs because most of their material is new. My problem is that the biggest effort isn’t being rewarded. Let me explain: anyone who competes at a high level is a hard worker, but not all hard workers make the same effort, correct? Now, Carmen and The Waltz Goes On were VERY difficult programs structurally speaking. If you create a program from scratch with new lifts and steps, that is going to take a while to perfect.
    ITA. In the past, when all of the dance teams were putting together fresh, new things every year, everyone was rough and unpolished at the beginning of the season compared to the end at worlds. That was the whole point of the competitive season--to perfect, polish, and grow. Now, you have a team in D/W that's reusing stuff for years, basically doing the same program, so of course they have less polishing to do than teams who are starting from scratch and trying new things each year. Whereas in the past the team that was doing the recycling would have gotten the slap on the wrist, now it's the teams who are trying to be creative and do new things who are penalized. That simply is not fair.

    I completely agree that V/M's effort isn't being rewarded. I also agree that anyone who's at this level is a hard worker, but that not all hard workers make the same effort. I'd go as far to say that some hard workers don't have the ability to make the effort that some do. V/M are simply capable of more than any other team competing these days.

    I, naively perhaps, thought the judges weren’t going to let that affect their perception of their programs at Worlds, but it did and that is unacceptable. I can’t, for the life of me, find a 3.25-point between the Waltz Goes On and Giselle. Not when D-W didn’t even level 4 the entire thing. It was, indeed, a cleaner skate, but it was not perfect. V-M’s skate wasn’t as terrible as the numbers imply. So, you see, there are little details that do not quite add up because most fall on the subjective marks.
    I do come down on the side of thinking this season was rigged from the start to give a certain result needed for a certain storyline the ISU wants for next year in ice dance. I do wonder if the plan for 4CC was that V/M would be allowed to win (if they skated well) to give them and D/W one win each going into worlds so there could be the annual yearly show down at the final event.

    The fact of the matter is this: the only thing that should matter in how a partiuclar performance is marked is what a team does in that particular performance. What happened at the last competition, early in the year, or the season before should have zero bearing. Heck, what happens in the SD should have no bearing on the FD scores. We see this playing out in pairs and singles. The slate is wiped clean between each competetion and in between each segment. You had a bad day in the SP? That's ok. No one is going to hold it against you during the FS. Did you botch a competition earlier in the year? No big deal. This is a new one and what happened before doesn't matter. Have a whole bad season for whatever reason? That's okay, you'll get your shot at redemption next year. For some reason, these same standards do not apply in ice dance and it is so wrong.

    You can't find a 3.25 point difference between V/M's and D/W's SD's because there isn't one. You're exactly correct in your analysis; D/W's skate was cleaner, but it wasn't perfect. V/M weren't perfect, but they were'nt that bad, especially when you consider everything they put out there--their other elements, their PCS... Yes, there is so much here that just doesn't add up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post
    Long story short. Defend figure skating, not figure skaters or "our figure skaters." Fans of Virtue and Moir are fans of the best ice dancers in the world today. They don't belong on a list of skaters who may or may not have deserved to do better. At least not that list.

    I don't think I'm being clear but it's more than fandom. It's important to make distinctions and focus on why Virtue and Moir deserve our support and deserve a loud defense. It's because they are the best skaters. That's what we're defending when we defend them.
    Thank you said this!
    Its look like if i am V-M fan i couldnt see best qualities of other teams. But not in this case.

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    It's great to come back home and read these discussions after having spent the last 24 hours on (shaky) planes...
    I wanted to add that I, too, believe that a strong PR strategy would be essential next season in order for them to have a shot at the Olympic title. Skate Canada would have to really respond to the US federation's increasingly aggressive campaign for Meryl and Charlie, by getting behind Tessa and Scott and underlying their unique qualities. I'm sure they can do it. I've just spent a week in London witnessing a spectacularly organized event, where the whole life of the city revolved around skating. If SC is able to do that, they sure could conceive a marketing campaign to support the best ice dancers in the world!

    Subway, you make excellent points in your post, especially about the Salt Lake City pairs disaster and how B&S are so much like Tessa and Scott.

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    This seems like such a stupid question, but how do you rep someone here? I thought it was enough with just quoting them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golightly View Post
    This seems like such a stupid question, but how do you rep someone here? I thought it was enough with just quoting them.
    If you have a paid subscription, there's a little icon in the bottom left-hand corner you can click to give someone reputation points (or negative rep them if they're really offensive). Different point levels get you different little names. if you mouse over the little bar of green dots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IoanaC View Post
    It's great to come back home and read these discussions after having spent the last 24 hours on (shaky) planes...
    I wanted to add that I, too, believe that a strong PR strategy would be essential next season in order for them to have a shot at the Olympic title. Skate Canada would have to really respond to the US federation's increasingly aggressive campaign for Meryl and Charlie, by getting behind Tessa and Scott and underlying their unique qualities. I'm sure they can do it. I've just spent a week in London witnessing a spectacularly organized event, where the whole life of the city revolved around skating. If SC is able to do that, they sure could conceive a marketing campaign to support the best ice dancers in the world!

    Subway, you make excellent points in your post, especially about the Salt Lake City pairs disaster and how B&S are so much like Tessa and Scott.
    Welcom home!

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