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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by volunteer View Post
    While nothing can ever take away my appreciation of their skating and the beauty of their programs, yes, their results this year have been a huge, huge disappointment. I can clearly separate these two aspects of my fandom. What happened over the course of this season, and no, I'm not picking on DW, just making the obvious comparison, which clearly the perception was that early on VM had the superior program, and slowly that changed. Was it politicking? Are speed and consistency really the primary "fundamentals" which the judges place the most importance on? When I hear that DW project their "passion to win" in their FD, as a reason to justify their newfoundconnection, my first thought is how is this representing the emotion of the program? Is the theme of ND about winning? Surely the artistic aspects of anyprogram are much more intricate and complex.

    While I don't know the answers to these questions, what I do know is that the team around VM first and foremost have to figure out how to adjust their training regimen so that their programs have more polish at the begining of the season. We all hear that they develop their programs throughout the season, but that is putting them at a disadvantage in building their momentum, in comparison to DW who show up with essentially the same well practiced elements. The second point is that they really need programs which combine all of their exquisite lines and carriage and have a "perceived" element of more speed. And thirdly, they don't need a coach who makes statements about their confidence and unaddressed costume issues which impact on their skating.
    now that v/m is kinda out of the limelight, hopefully the russian federation will be politicking against D/W while the USFSA will be politiking against the russians, ignoring v/m. meanwhile V/M will rise to the top like a phoenix rising from the ashes

    even though its an atrocity to the sport that d/w won, we should be thankful that they won at the same time because that takes the pressure off of v/m

  2. #182

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    Mahler

  3. #183
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    also guys what do you think about v/m dancing to wagner's liebestod/tristan and isolde? i've seen so many posts saying that they should dance to that

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    When people say Mahler, what other skaters would people be thinking about?

    Or Funny Face? Heh.

    I'm pretty confident that Marina will choose a classical piece that is romantic, but probably not as ethereal as Mahler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I think what some people feel is that they can achieve that crispness because they don't have as many transitions, their program has a weird construction (three lifts at the end), and many of their elements are old, so of course it's easier to be crisp.
    ITA Cherub. I would add, like a lot of things, D/W's crispness is partly illusion. The fact that they don't hold their lines and moves or use much in the way of sustained movements, it makes them look more crisp, but what V/M are doing is actually harder. I think, for the record, that once V/M learn their new moves, their execution is just as crisp. Besides, there's more to exectuion than crispness. There is cleanliness as well, and V/M are far, far cleaner in their execution.

    And, yes, the fact that many of D/W's elements are so old, the fact that they have fewer transitions, and that their program construction is odd (e.g., three lifts in a row at the end) makes things a lot easier on them.

    ITA with the first sentence. Like I always said, when we mention Carmina Burana, Bolero, or Memorial every ice dance fan knows exactly what we mean. I want that for V&M. I don't care whether it's romantic or not though.
    I also agree with wanting them to have something that's just theirs. There is Mahler, but a lot of people also associate that with G/G since Katia did the piece after Sergei's death. Like you, I also don't care if it's romantic or what genre it's from.

  6. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    When people say Mahler, what other skaters would people be thinking about?

    Or Funny Face? Heh.

    I'm pretty confident that Marina will choose a classical piece that is romantic, but probably not as ethereal as Mahler.
    Hip-hip Chin-chin
    I hope Scott know there muisc and like he said- this will be something interesting and soemthing they didnt made before

  7. #187
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    I think they're doing a ballet. The concept might be interesting though

  8. #188
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    I want to make a point about descriptors such as "crispness" and "clean precision". For me, the quality of crispness in a skating program relates more to the music and the style of the skater - quick, staccato movements, quick changes of position, for example as in a march. This applies to the majority of DW's programs, but the downside is that they don't finish their movements, attention to head position, toe point and arm position are weaker. When I look at VM's skating, I would not describe them as "crisp", but more as "precise" they don't have an overabundance of rapid movements succession, every move is deliberate, they create shapes. Clean precision is more of a quality I see in VM, but not as a complete package in DW.
    I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself clearly, it's really not a case of semantics, I'm sure one of you more eloquent posters can elaborate.
    btw, love your post gerbil

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    Love the idea of a ballet.

    In terms of politicking, does the Russian Fed really believe their teams have a chance at anything above a bronze? I think their decisions to favour D&W or V&M will come down to which team on top would hurt them less in the team event. Under those circumstances, an American on top of the dance portion would still allow the Russians to win gold. If V&M (along with Chan) were on top, a team gold for Russia would be extremely unlikely.

  10. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    Love the idea of a ballet.

    In terms of politicking, does the Russian Fed really believe their teams have a chance at anything above a bronze? I think their decisions to favour D&W or V&M will come down to which team on top would hurt them less in the team event. Under those circumstances, an American on top of the dance portion would still allow the Russians to win gold. If V&M (along with Chan) were on top, a team gold for Russia would be extremely unlikely.
    They already have bronze and B-S show such a big progress this season.
    And with USA help they even culd have silver, when Chan will have gold and all are happy. Maybe Canada wish gold at OG Team competitions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by volunteer View Post
    I want to make a point about descriptors such as "crispness" and "clean precision". For me, the quality of crispness in a skating program relates more to the music and the style of the skater - quick, staccato movements, quick changes of position, for example as in a march. This applies to the majority of DW's programs, but the downside is that they don't finish their movements, attention to head position, toe point and arm position are weaker. When I look at VM's skating, I would not describe them as "crisp", but more as "precise" they don't have an overabundance of rapid movements succession, every move is deliberate, they create shapes. Clean precision is more of a quality I see in VM, but not as a complete package in DW.
    I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself clearly, it's really not a case of semantics, I'm sure one of you more eloquent posters can elaborate.
    btw, love your post gerbil
    No! You did a fabulous job expressing yourself. I totally get what you're saying and agree. D/W move fast, but like you say, that comes at the expense of finishing off their moves in their case (you can move fast and finish your moves off--I'm sure we'll see that in V/M's SD next year). I argue that what V/M do is harder. I think it's much harder to hold a move than to move quickly. Lifting your leg up and immediately setting your leg back down is far easier than lifting your leg and holding that position for an extended amount of time.

    Aw, thanks. I'm glad you liked the post.
    Last edited by aka_gerbil; 03-19-2013 at 05:22 PM.

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    What do you think about Anna Karenina?

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    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    Love the idea of a ballet.

    In terms of politicking, does the Russian Fed really believe their teams have a chance at anything above a bronze? I think their decisions to favour D&W or V&M will come down to which team on top would hurt them less in the team event. Under those circumstances, an American on top of the dance portion would still allow the Russians to win gold. If V&M (along with Chan) were on top, a team gold for Russia would be extremely unlikely.
    You also have to factor in pairs and ladies when thinking about the team event, and I actually think it's going to be hard to figure out until closer to time who's stronger on paper and what would be the best strategy...

  14. #194
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    Just want to clarify on my post from yesterday, because I think I was just feeling 'let down' and maybe 'sentimenal' at that time, that while I'm happy to see V/M skate always no matter what. I do care about the result, I do care that they are being shafted but sometimes I get so tired of it. I hoped this judging system was better and I don't know right now if it's the judging system, the judges themselves, the politics etc. probably all of those things, that are producing these results. Maybe being Canadian to I just wish we didn't have to go down this road, what seems like all the time. From B&K, S&P, Elvis, Patrick, Jeff, seems like we always have to defend their reputations and fight for what we feel they deserve. We shouldn't always have to fight, and with V/M I never thought we'd have to they are that good and have done NOTHING to deserve this. I don't know if the media & SC are reluctant to do or say anything because D/W are American and because they train with them day in, day out. They don't want to cause trouble ? Or maybe, like me they get tired of being labelled a'whiner' or a 'flag waver' just because I want to defend what I see as unjust. I don't know but I truly don't see anything happening unless V/M start to really get dropped next season, as in 'now competing for silver and bronze' which I don't see happening. Maybe some 'outside' voices will start speaking up and at least the media may jump on board before Sochi, if need be, but I just don't see that either. I'm frustrated, angry and disappointed...again. D/W are talented, I like them but this is not fair. So in the end I will continue to defend them and what I feel they rightfully deserve , not that it matters much to anyone, but I also just want to enjoy them for as long as they'll let us and I want them to be happy. Judges and politics will do whatever they want anyways so, but I'm not giving up nor am I content to just sit by and let them get beaten down again.
    Last edited by sequins; 03-19-2013 at 04:55 PM.

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    Well here's a few thoughts to "chew" on. IF we want V/M to come out of the gate in the next season more ready, they should

    1) recycle a number of their lifts. After all, there would be muscle memory and they wouldn't have to learn them again
    2) take speed skating lessons to learn how to do short, choppy steps and show the judges just how "fast" they are travelling
    3) Scott needs to grow his hair long, dye it blond and make it curly so he has "magical hair"
    4) Tessa needs to lose weight cause we can't have her looking fit; she needs to look "ethereal"
    5) we need not just Canadian media, but the entire world (minus the U.S.) to speak to how good V/M are and how deserving they are of winning gold in Sochi and how hard they work and train. Oh yeah, and have articles about Tessa's having family links to people in Russia. Get the Canadian PR machine working OT, starting right now. Oh yeah, and we should have continual articles about how so many fans came up to V/M saying that they should have won, well at least the FD.

    Have I covered everything? OK, now you guys know I'm just teasing with that list, right? Tongue planted firmly in cheek and all!

    However, I think there's a couple things there that they could look at doing if they are serious about winning next season instead of just leaving a legacy.
    First, stop with the crazy and all brand new lifts (although that would make me sad cause that's part of what I look forward to seeing). Use a couple from the past few years. Works for D/W, why shouldn't V/M do likewise? It would mean less new things to learn.
    Also, I think Skate Canada needs to "politik" better with the media -- especially once the GP season begins. They need to talk up V/M, create hype and optimism. Get reporters of sports - not just figure skating one - on board.
    Change coaches. Yeah, I know they likely won't do such a thing, but it bothers me a great deal that all the things that have made V/M so successful are being copied by their training mates. They need to be in an environment where that kind of thing won't be happening. I know, next to impossible that such would happen, but I can still wish.
    Crazy about sports!

  16. #196
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    Carmen, I do not disagree. I think you misunderstood what I meant. I am not happy about the way the season went, I think V-M deserved better. They had outstanding material that, for some reason, was never truly embraced by the judges. On that I agree with you completely.

    Now, that is one thing. My personal enjoyment of both programs is another. My happiness has nothing to do with their results, I am not asking anyone to feel happy because they lost. I am saying that I am glad that they decided to be ambitious and I am thankful to them for giving us these two incredible programs this season because I, as a fan of the sport, can appreciate what they tried to and, yes, succeeded to do.

    Of course it is unfair that two mistakes on the short dance saw them more than three points behind. That was not necessary and the fact that most of the gap came from GOE and PCS is even more infuriating, I understand that. Of course it is not fair that, again, the subjective marks were the difference in the free dance.

    It is not that V-M’s programs need to be polished since the very beginning, they never are! And, hey, that’s logical: they like to work their programs because most of their material is new. My problem is that the biggest effort isn’t being rewarded. Let me explain: anyone who competes at a high level is a hard worker, but not all hard workers make the same effort, correct? Now, Carmen and The Waltz Goes On were VERY difficult programs structurally speaking. If you create a program from scratch with new lifts and steps, that is going to take a while to perfect. Both programs were pretty much set by Nationals. The USFSA gave monster scores to D-W; Skate Canada asked V-M to work on a few things. Did that send a message? I wonder. But what happened next makes me think V-M were on track to win, they had a marvelous first skate a 4CC. They had momentum there, beating D-W in the short dance and then Tessa’s injury happened. That, I think, gave the judges the perfect out. Looking back, maybe Pani was right and they shouldn’t have made that trip, maybe they should’ve stayed home. I don’t know. My point is that momentum was lost after Four Continents. I, naively perhaps, thought the judges weren’t going to let that affect their perception of their programs at Worlds, but it did and that is unacceptable. I can’t, for the life of me, find a 3.25-point between the Waltz Goes On and Giselle. Not when D-W didn’t even level 4 the entire thing. It was, indeed, a cleaner skate, but it was not perfect. V-M’s skate wasn’t as terrible as the numbers imply. So, you see, there are little details that do not quite add up because most fall on the subjective marks.

    When V-M lost Worlds in 2011, you could see where and how they lost it. I could see, even having won the short dance, what their Latin program lacked on the ice and on the marks. I know others thought they should’ve won, but I didn’t, I thought that result was fair and I was okay with it. Here I do not get precisely where it is that they lost it.

    But not even that disappointment will make me think that their efforts were pointless or aimless. I got those programs. And, sure, I am a nobody in the figure skating world, my opinion doesn’t really change anything, but still, I truly did appreciate the programs and I am happy they took those risks.

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    First, Carmen, I think this is one of the best posts I've ever read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carmen Ovsiannikov View Post
    While I respect the comments of Kurt Browning and those who agree with him, it makes me want to scream.

    I have never seen any other team treated quite like V&M have been treated. Yes, we win by getting to see the almost otherwordly skating skills Tessa and Scott possess and the creativity and how they are trying to push the sport. But. Why it is okay, why do people seem to think it's okay that V&M aren't not being marked properly as long as we get to see them skate? I don't want to use the word pointless but I see where gerbil is coming from.
    That's what I keep coming back to. V/M are a once-in-a-generation sort of team and we are so very lucky that they came along. It is wonderful we've gotten to see and enjoy all that they do, BUT our enjoyment of what they do does NOT make it ok that they're not being marked properly in relation to D/W. It is never ok when the marking is not correct, no matter how much you still enjoy your team. For me, it makes it hard to enjoy what I'm watching when I'm stewing over the judging.

    Tessa and Scott have said they want to push the sport but they have also stated they want to win. If they did not care about winning they would have retired after Vancouver or at least after last season so they could at least have gone out on top. I have no doubt they would be in demand as performers/exhibition skaters for both U.S. and Canadian SOI, the Disson shows and the shows in Europe and Russia. There they could create artistic masterpieces without being hampered by having to fit their vision into a CoP styled program.

    All the changes and overtraining was because they want to push the sport and themselves but also wanted that gold medal. I've seen some photos of Tessa and Scott at the awards ceremony and those were not the faces of a team content to have treated us to one of the best artistic pieces in recent memory, medals be damned.
    This. V/M may be artists but they are athletes and VERY competitive people at that. The pro-circuit isn't what it used to be, but V/M would have been in high demend for shows across the globe, partiuclarly in Russia where they are adored. They would have been free to just be artists. However, here they are still competing. They're still competing because they want to win. They've said that they want to win. Also, like you said, in those pictures from the medal ceremonies, V/M's faces weren't those of people who were happy with being artists, regardless of the color of the medal. They looked down, disappointed, etc.

    This is a competition but with V&M people seem to have gotten to the point that it seems okay that V&M are being put through the wringer. I remember when Kurt made that comment; I felt at that point that he knew something we don't. Perhaps it's a good thing V&M were marked so far back in the SD; I agree with gerbil that even two performances on the level of the Carmen FD Saturday would still have come in second. I feel like because V&M's competition is an American team no one is willing to say anything. Because Americans of course wouldn't play politics.
    And I'm not quite seeing how Marina wants what is best for V&M. In icedance it's always been just as much about what takes place off the ice as what takes place on the ice. Marina has been around long enough to know that. Whether it is based in fact or just superstition, we've seen in the past teams (and even singles skaters) keep injuries or illnesses quiet for fear the judges would use that against them. Marina isn't stupid; for her to talk about Tessa's weaknesses was something we usually don't see a coach do. At least not during a competition and not while a team she was trying to help win a title was still in the thick of things. [quote]

    I had that same feeling as well starting with that comment Kurt made: the sense that others knew something we didn't. He knew what was coming. So did others.

    ITA that people are unwilling to say anything because the competition is American and there is an (incorrect) perception that the Americans would never participate in the political games. I think if D/W were Russian or European, there would be a huge outcry in the NA press about this. I've seen people say that now that american's win in ice dance, it's proof that things are fair. Really? Just because an American wins, it doesn't mean it's a fair result. Not at all. (I say this as a US citizen, for the record.)

    I've already touched on the keeping one's mouth shut about injuries and other issues in ice dance, but ITA about Marina. I don't know that I trust the woman.

    Even if she is perfectly fair towards the two teams, she still can't give V/M what they need. More than ever after this season, it's clear that you don't win skating titles on the ice alone. And I do think that what's happening probably is a top-down problem because the ISU wanted a certain story for ice dance this quad, but V/M have got to fight back. They need a coach who is willing to go to bat for them who is only for them. Marina, assuming all is on the up and up and she gets each team ready to the best of its ability and doesn't politic for or prefer one team over the other, isn't in a position to talk up how V/M are clearly the best and how much better they are than D/W. She's limited on what she can say because she coaches both V/M and D/W. And, also, there's this: because she coaches both teams, a victory from either one is a victory for her. she doesn't care one way or the other. V/M need a coach for whom their victory is the only win for them (the coach) and the only acceptable outcome for a competition.

    Another reason I'd like to see a change is that nevermind V/M don't actually have a problem that needs fixing in this area, there's a meme from the 12-13 season that they were struggling technically (NOT what I saw at all, but whatever). They need to make it look like they're fixing this contrived problem. So, they change coaches and say they're doing it to fix this problem (they don't actually have). It's the nuttiest reason ever for a coaching change, but apperances count more than the actual skating that was done.

    I really do appreciate being able to witness a team like V&M. Honestly, I do. It's been a long time since we've had a generational team the likes of Tessa and Scott but it's not okay to watch them struggle because they are at a loss as to what more to do to get the marks they should be getting. Why is it because it's V&M, we need to trade one thing (fair marks) for another (technically and artistically brilliant programs). Why is it with V&M, those two things seem to now be mutually exclusive?
    Preach it, Carmen! This things are not mutually exclusive, or they shouldn't be.

    While I disagree that D&W's FD's are masterpieces and that they deserved to win Worlds last season, their fans say otherwise. And while I don't read the D&W thread, I've seen comments in other threads. Those fans were livid and spoke up. They weren't happy just to have witnessed what they thought were great programs and the medals didn't matter. The same for the other teams who people have perceived as ripped off. W&P last season had a FD that really touched people and while those folks enjoyed that FD, again they spoke out against what they felt was an unfair placement at Worlds. Only V&M and their fans seem to be forced to throw in the towel in a way and say placements don't matter as long as we get to see them skate.
    ITA again. We're the only V/M and their fans are expected to say that the placements don't matter as long as they're skating. It's not right.

    Even with DelShoes people spoke up about them getting shafted. I never heard people say that in the end we should just be happy that we got to witness Frida, The Untouchables, The Piano etc. so in the end it didn't matter that Isabelle and Olivier were marked down and should have at least two more world medals than they do.
    So very true. To this day, you still see people talking about how shafted DelSchoes were over the years. People still aren't saying "oh well, we were just glad to see them." No, they're still talking about how wrong it was that those beautiful, difficult programs weren't rewarded properly.

    Hoping next season sees a change.
    Same here.

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    V&M need to leave now. There's no way one coach can give their time and attention equally to competitors like these two (and stay neutral at the same time). Sorry, I know this has been said many times, but I needed to get it off my chest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alixana View Post
    V&M need to leave now. There's no way one coach can give their time and attention equally to competitors like these two (and stay neutral at the same time). Sorry, I know this has been said many times, but I needed to get it off my chest
    She will say - its not me who give marks to you, you are both may childrens. Its all bad judges did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    In terms of politicking, does the Russian Fed really believe their teams have a chance at anything above a bronze?
    I think they are realists at the end of the day, so no.

    I think their decisions to favour D&W or V&M will come down to which team on top would hurt them less in the team event. Under those circumstances, an American on top of the dance portion would still allow the Russians to win gold. If V&M (along with Chan) were on top, a team gold for Russia would be extremely unlikely.
    That's an excellent point. Hadn't thought of that. Not that I'm convinced that the Russians have sole power over the placements, but yeah, it would be better for Russia if D&W placed first in the team event. But does that placement carry over to the dance final? In the old days, probably yes; today, the results are more back and forth, sometimes through a season, sometimes through a competition, sometimes by alternating World titles.

    So it might be good for V&M if D&W beat them in the team comp, because then V&M can win the ice dance comp and both sides have been given "something."

    OTOH, I've been thinking a lot about the team comp and think if Canada wins it will really hurt their chances politically. If by the time dance rolls around Canada already has two gold medals, it will be hard for them to win, especially since the US is unlikely to medal in pairs and men. US' next best chance is ladies, but that comes after dance so D&W will be the only sure thing at that point.

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