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  1. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by tapper88 View Post
    I had messaged Kaitlyn on Facebook congratulating her on the performances and she messaged me back
    They are doing WTT but not SOI as Kaitlyn has surgery following WTT! Assuming to get the screws out of her ankle?!
    Anyways, soo sweet she replied.
    Bringing this over from the W/P thread. So Tessa and Scott aren't doing WTT.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by IoanaC View Post
    It's great to come back home and read these discussions after having spent the last 24 hours on (shaky) planes...
    I wanted to add that I, too, believe that a strong PR strategy would be essential next season in order for them to have a shot at the Olympic title. Skate Canada would have to really respond to the US federation's increasingly aggressive campaign for Meryl and Charlie, by getting behind Tessa and Scott and underlying their unique qualities. I'm sure they can do it. I've just spent a week in London witnessing a spectacularly organized event, where the whole life of the city revolved around skating. If SC is able to do that, they sure could conceive a marketing campaign to support the best ice dancers in the world!

    Subway, you make excellent points in your post, especially about the Salt Lake City pairs disaster and how B&S are so much like Tessa and Scott.


    please keep in mind that this is not necessarily due to skate canada, but rather the host organizing committee.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    Bringing this over from the W/P thread. So Tessa and Scott aren't doing WTT.
    thank GOD
    i rather have them do a third gp than wtt

  4. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manaud View Post
    please keep in mind that this is not necessarily due to skate canada, but rather the host organizing committee.
    Skate Canada was the host federation. Its people were involved in and were aware of all aspects of the organization.

  5. #245

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    OT, but have you guys seen this? Lol it's so cute, apparently it's their special handshake. I've never seen it before.

  6. #246
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    I also want to say how much I love the comments being made here. to everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    So many great discussions you guys

    I just want to chime in on the reusing old element discussion. If V/M can handle it I definitely wish they still up their ante and churn out new elements and new lifts for next year. Then oone of two things may happen:

    1) D/W still use more or less the same elements for what now, six years in a row? This is great weapon for politiking (we just gotta find a way to convince the frustrating SC to step it up). There have already been many opinions that Notre Dame is basically PotO. If supposedly they want to keep this #newfoundconnection would it translate well into other musical themes? If they skate again to a powerful music full of O faces and fake angst would the judges be finally bored with them? Perhaps.
    ......
    The only issue with that is V&M would end up taking a chance by hoping the judges would finally see the light. And that Skate Canada and the Canadian press might finally start to promote their home team. In all fairness, right before Worlds we did see a few articles that were positive about V&M but it seemed it was too little, too late. This is something that should have been done all season.

    If the judges don't have a change of heart then it would be another season just like this one only this time a second Olympic gold is on the line.

    I do think V&M will still come up with new elements and ideas for their Olympic FD but I agree they need to dial it back a tad with the degree of difficulty. They bent over backwards and killed themselves to introduce news ideas and movement to the sport but all it seemed to get them was criticism and accusations that they are falling further behind the supposedly superior D&W.

    Tessa and Scott do often take the entire season to build their programs but they can't afford to do that again. Don't get me wrong, I don't see V&M completely taking the easy way out and doing a more empty program. I also think them building to a peak by the end of the season events will change but I think they could/should find some sort of middle ground. Something in between Mahler and Carmen both in technical content and artistry. Or maybe between Funny Face and Carmen.

    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post

    2) D/W also bring new elements, and then we can see how well they adjust to their training and programs. V/M and D/W would be more on equal grounds in terms of preparedness and will really test D/W in a situation that I will bank on V/M any day of the week even with the apparent judging bias. Which also brings out my speculation that why they changed from La Strada to DF and supposedly Sinatra to Notre Dame...

    ......
    Right now things are clearly going D&W's way. The programs they chose are specifically designed (IMO) to try and disguise their shortcomings and give the illusion they are much better than they are. So far there is nothing that indicates the judges are ready to see things differently. Of course we have seen in the past that all of a sudden in icedancing the judges can change their opinions at the drop of a hat. But again, it's all speculation. If I were D&W, why take a chance especially in an Olympic year when going on five seasons now the judges are firmly in my corner.

    Not to mention, while D&W are an excellent technical team and are fast (but I disagree as well they are faster than V&M) I do think they are one of those teams who have reached top end of what they are capable of. I just can't see them attempting a program with the wall to wall content of Carmen and being able to pull it off. ITA again that almost all of D&W's FD's since POTO look the same but they are doing what works for them and so far they have been given no reason to change.

    Don't get me wrong walei, I agree with everything you say but unfortunately we have to factor in whatever the judges are thinking and hoping that they have a change of heart. That is a big question mark and risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post

    On the other hand both V/M and D/W both recycle elements, which I would hate to see because, well this is going to sound really bad but with all due respect to D/W, I don't want V/M stoop to D/W's level as elite ice dance competitors. And this would give even more power for more politking and hearsay against V/M.


    "Hey look Tessa is probably still in pain and couldn't train as much so they have to reuse elements"
    "ANOTHER romantic sappy program from V/M? One trick pony"

    You get the jist.

    I think a ballet would be the perfect choice for V/M next year, playing up Tessa's dancing strength and the Olympics being in Russia.
    I agree again but...

    At this point, V&M seem damned if they do, damned if they don't. They get a boatload of criticism no matter what. Even a program like Carmen didn't seem to stop that; to change peoples low opinion of them.

    As I said above, I think V&M can dial back some of the extreme difficulty of what the do while still presenting a program that still stands out artistically and have the neccesary difficulty.

    With Tessa and Scott it's not just that the risk and level of content of the Carmen FD wasn't appreciated, it's also that they overtrained and put more strain on themselves both physically and emotionally. And for what? They still ended up coming off to many as if they were faltering and are falling behind D&W.

    I agree with you about V&M choosing to do a ballet for next season. It could have the feel of Mahler but still have creative elements within it.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cachoo View Post
    Yes-being able to show innovation and emotion with a lot of speed is how I see it thus far. I think D/W are incredible technically. I also think they have plenty of artistry. I think V/M are incredible artistically. I think they do very very well technically too. Look---you all may not like me but I have to say this: I am worried that they are moving away from romance. I wasn't wild about "Carmen"----and it was not V/M's fault. I'm just so tired of seeing certain pieces used over and over again. God knows that they tried to breath some freshness into the piece. Romance is their wheelhouse: No one does it better---I'm not sure anyone in history ever did it better. In an Olympic year why move away from that? I know they want to stretch but there are real risks doing this in an Olympic year. And again I'm sorry to say this on an uber thread but D/W are worthy competition. Right now I'm watching their programs over and over again because of their clean precision and -as Simon says--their crispness. It is a pleasure to see that unison. I want a piece of music not so well known for V/M so that when we hear it the rest of our lives we won't remember the title: It will simply be Tessa and Scott's song. And I want it to be romantic. I'm going to leave now for awhile. I'm not here to cause trouble--I like V/M a great deal and am worried. I'm sure in time I'll irritate the D/W ubers too. (Retreating to the Love Thread if I can find it.)
    Quote Originally Posted by kittysk8ts View Post
    I don't think he/she has changed his/her tune on the "personal" stuff and there will be lots more to come on that, I am sure. However, he/she clearly knows ice-dance. Please don't hate me for saying this but he/she is doing a comparison including gifs of the 2 teams and he/she is bang on. In the comments section there is a lot of opinion and analysis of all aspects of ice-dance and it is all accurate. I hate the premise of that blog but I too go there to snoop. I hope you guys don't kick me out......
    I think there is a little bit of misunderstanding. We don't have an issue with people who love both V&M and D&W and I don't think any of us have an issue with people having differing views in general.

    It's those who clearly hate V&M and come here just to be snide and take cheap shots; make personal attacks on V&M and some of the posters here that is the problem.

    Cachoo and kitty, both of you made great posts and presented yourselves in a respectful manner. Even if I don't end up agreeing with all of what you say, I respect that you came here to have a civil discussion. I think it's to be expected that everyone is not going to agree but it's all in how a person presents themselves.

    I hope neither of you feel as if you can't come here and join in the debate. I don't think that is what anyone wants.

    Cachoo, I think it was necessary for V&M to do a program like Carmen. It goes back to what I said before about Tessa and Scott being damned if they do and damned if they don't. We all know how good they are and how capable they are of moving an audience and using their incredible connection to sell their programs. However, they have been criticized in the past for their romantic themed programs; accused of always being too "lovey dovey" all the time.

    I do think if V&M do a ballet FD next year they can capitalize on their romantic connection while still bringing something new to the table. Especially with Jennifer Swan still on board.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    Well here's a few thoughts to "chew" on. IF we want V/M to come out of the gate in the next season more ready, they should

    1) recycle a number of their lifts. After all, there would be muscle memory and they wouldn't have to learn them again
    2) take speed skating lessons to learn how to do short, choppy steps and show the judges just how "fast" they are travelling
    3) Scott needs to grow his hair long, dye it blond and make it curly so he has "magical hair"
    4) Tessa needs to lose weight cause we can't have her looking fit; she needs to look "ethereal"
    5) we need not just Canadian media, but the entire world (minus the U.S.) to speak to how good V/M are and how deserving they are of winning gold in Sochi and how hard they work and train. Oh yeah, and have articles about Tessa's having family links to people in Russia. Get the Canadian PR machine working OT, starting right now. Oh yeah, and we should have continual articles about how so many fans came up to V/M saying that they should have won, well at least the FD.

    Have I covered everything? OK, now you guys know I'm just teasing with that list, right? Tongue planted firmly in cheek and all!

    However, I think there's a couple things there that they could look at doing if they are serious about winning next season instead of just leaving a legacy.
    First, stop with the crazy and all brand new lifts (although that would make me sad cause that's part of what I look forward to seeing). Use a couple from the past few years. Works for D/W, why shouldn't V/M do likewise? It would mean less new things to learn.
    Also, I think Skate Canada needs to "politik" better with the media -- especially once the GP season begins. They need to talk up V/M, create hype and optimism. Get reporters of sports - not just figure skating one - on board.
    Change coaches. Yeah, I know they likely won't do such a thing, but it bothers me a great deal that all the things that have made V/M so successful are being copied by their training mates. They need to be in an environment where that kind of thing won't be happening. I know, next to impossible that such would happen, but I can still wish.
    Quote Originally Posted by volunteer View Post
    You're funny . . . but you forgot about developping a newfoundconnection.
    Don't forget the fluttering eyelashes and panting heavily at the end of the program so EVERYONE knows you skated your HEART out! (Ok, enough with the snark)

    Quote Originally Posted by Golightly View Post
    Oh, I remember the twizzles! Didn't two teams try to do the circular twizzles too?

    Speaking of elements I wish they recycled, those twizzles are perhaps top of my list together with the serpentine lift on Pink Floyd.
    AMEN! I love that lift, probably one of my all-time favourite lift of theirs. I'm not sure how I'd feel about them recycling it, though. It'd have to be the right music because how they construct their lifts to the music is one of things I love most about them. You can almost feel the music with their movement.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmen Ovsiannikov View Post

    At this point, V&M seem damned if they do, damned if they don't. They get a boatload of criticism no matter what. Even a program like Carmen didn't seem to stop that; to change peoples low opinion of them.

    As I said above, I think V&M can dial back some of the extreme difficulty of what the do while still presenting a program that still stands out artistically and have the neccesary difficulty.

    With Tessa and Scott it's not just that the risk and level of content of the Carmen FD wasn't appreciated, it's also that they overtrained and put more strain on themselves both physically and emotionally. And for what? They still ended up coming off to many as if they were faltering and are falling behind D&W.

    I agree with you about V&M choosing to do a ballet for next season. It could have the feel of Mahler but still have creative elements within it.
    I wouldn't say in general V/M are receiving low opinions but maybe only from the judges (in relation to D/W because V/M are still getting monster scores compare to the rest of the field), and from the D/W ubers but that's to be expected. Last year with FF there were a lot of criticism that V/M are only doing sappy romantic programs. This year however I see from neutral camps, those that prefers neither V/M or D/W, are singing praises for Carmen. The past skaters and TV commentators also are obviously amazed by the FD this year.

    Of course at the end of the day it's the judges' opinion that matter most because they are still first and foremost athletes competing in a sport. In that sense I agree with you that V/M are in a damn if they do damn if they don't situation.

  10. #250

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    OT, but have you guys seen this? Lol it's so cute, apparently it's their special handshake. I've never seen it before.
    Thank you! I didnt saw this before. Yes, they are so cute

  11. #251

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    Bringing this over from the W/P thread. So Tessa and Scott aren't doing WTT.
    Thanks! I feel happy. Good luck to W-P at WTT! And i hope they will not push Keithlyn too much.
    And i hope T-S will go to vacations now and have good rest. And maybe after that they will change there minds about coaching situation ))))))))
    I hope Tessa will recover... At least she will feel, like she was in Nice.

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  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/

    Radio station.


    eta.. Unfortunately that was probably about an hour ago.

  14. #254

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcg View Post
    Thanks! If someone will listening interview, please, let me know, what Scott said

    eta.. Unfortunately that was probably about an hour ago.
    But maybe they will download this programs tomorrow on this sie.
    Last edited by pani; 03-20-2013 at 12:59 PM.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    Last year with FF there were a lot of criticism that V/M are only doing sappy romantic programs. This year however I see from neutral camps, those that prefers neither V/M or D/W, are singing praises for Carmen.
    I remember a ton of posts last year from V&M fans and ice dance fans saying they really hoped V&M would bring it with a really creative classic FD, even if it meant placing 2nd at every competition.

    Not me; I wanted them to win.

    But it happened, so hopefully people actually were able to appreciate it and win some new fans.

    To be honest, I wonder if a lot of fans of that dramatic style of ice dancing with beautiful lines and deep edges have just given up on ice dancing in general, and that's maybe why V&M aren't getting the support. I was talking to a friend who used to be a huge fan of ice dancing and they said they could not bear to watch anymore as CoP has sucked out a lot of interesting details and with the elimination of the CD and destroying the OD. I notice a lot of the FSU posters that used to be really into ice dance barely commented on Worlds. FSU used to have some great discussions analyzing all the dances, the politiks, the technik of all top couples... and now that seems to be left to the uber threads.

  16. #256

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    FSU used to have some great discussions analyzing all the dances, the politiks, the technik of all top couples... and now that seems to be left to the uber threads.
    I notice this too. But i think maybe this just becaise people agree with overall results. And maybe talked to much about all FDs during all season.
    Abd yes, i was one of fans, who wished to see something creative more then gold And they did this. I even asked them to use unusuall choreo on overused music
    But who could imaging new ice dance fans and old judges isnt ready to see nothing new and hot?

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    I think this happens because especially as time goes by with CoP ice dancing is turning into a more political event than it ever was. Everything that was good about the sport is getting destroyed little by little. There was no way for people to get on the podium under 6.0 if they had bad posture,serious technical problems,edge problems, etc.Yes, there were different ways to cheat but what about the TES? The way it's been this season is just strange. You either know what level something is or not, you either understand the technical difficulty or not.
    If a program is judged difficulty wise using just 8 elements then it's not fair to all these skaters that want to add. And yes, one can argue that it's all about the PCS then,but how is this really used? How are transitions used and why do they actually try to make ice dancing into a " stay on your two feet ,do nothing and get the marks" kind of sport.
    V/M risked,which means that if you risk you should get more credit even in case you're not perfectly crisp and crystal clear.Because you risk,and this is what sport is supposed to be.
    I am always intrigued by the twizzles of the top couples. There are levels being given,rules on how to give them, and yet it always strikes me that people who don't do a catch foot position, have the obligatory little jump,but are painfully slow shouldn't be given level 4. Yet, almost all of the couples are being given a level 4. So maybe one should take the technical panel and make them do the actual twizzles themselves.
    Same applies for the spins, and don't get me started on the step sequences.The discipline needs a serious check up,not to say open heart surgery right now.

  18. #258
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    D&W are ice skaters, V&M are ice dancers.

    I guess the ISU needs to clarify what this discipline is supposed to be. At the moment it seems to favour ice skaters.

  19. #259

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    I think they want to get out ice dance from OG. Thats why they made this SD, give teams 10th in PCS - all for people start hating ice dance
    I want to ask people from D-W thread - what must we talking about to make you happy, guys?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zotza View Post
    There was no way for people to get on the podium under 6.0 if they had bad posture,serious technical problems,edge problems, etc.
    I think some people would disagree regarding posture (Drobiazko, Bourne) and edge quality (Chait, Margaglio). However, poor quality skaters have also medalled under the CoP (Goncharov, Kostomarov) so it has not solved whatever it was supposed to solve.

    How are transitions used and why do they actually try to make ice dancing into a " stay on your two feet ,do nothing and get the marks" kind of sport.
    Yes, this. The SD/OD has became more like a singles short program. Do your elements and don't make any mistakes. It doesn't matter if you have the feel of the dance or not. There is barely even time to dance.

    V/M risked,which means that if you risk you should get more credit even in case you're not perfectly crisp and crystal clear.Because you risk,and this is what sport is supposed to be.
    ITA, but I will add I don't see anywhere V&M were not crisp and crystal clear in their FD. It was excellent.

    That has always annoyed me about CoP. You find something that's level 4 that's easy for you and just repeat it all the time. No credit is given for added difficulty once you're at level 4, and no credit is given in PCS for the originality of the positions or how well they fit the program. I mean I&K usually get level 4 lifts and great PCS and they have terrible lifts.

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