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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    Feel free to express whom you are cheering for. However, even countries like Russia or France with a huge skating tradition compared to Israel had quite a few of “imported” skaters (the Duchesnays, Kawaguchi, Volosozhar) still most people in those countries managed to be proud of their success.
    Leaving aside the Duschenays, I don't see how either Kavaguti or Volosozhar are comparable to Shelepen or Bychenko. Both Kavaguti and Volosozhar relocated to Russia to pair up with Russian partners who were the best option for them. Both speak Russian. Kavaguti gave up her Japanese citizenship! They are actually more comparable to Allison Reed, who is now skating with Vasili Rogov, or the girl who is now skating with Krasnaploski - Davidovich, I think? If an Israeli skater needs to look abroad to find the right partner, I have no issue with that, though I would expect the partner to make a minimal effort to try and relate to the country and maybe learn a bit of the language. Isabella Tobias had to take a test in Lithuanian and still hasn't had her citizenship approved, I don't think it's too much to ask for skaters to at least be able to figure out what "the warmup is over" means when it is said in Hebrew.

    Despite understanding the frustration to a certain point, I sadly think your statements and similar ones by others, but in particular the way and the language you are presenting your arguments with pointing out Israel doesn’t have enough “local skaters” only non-local ones and indicating that even “rubbish” Amercian/Russian skaters due to lousy jumps of locals are still technically superior to them, is a perfect effort to possibly subvert the achievements Israeli figures skaters made in the past decades in the eyes of many non-Israeli skating fans. Most of them would not waste a minute of time thinking if the skaters were imported / local, unless pointed out by others. So if that was the goal, it might have been achieved perfectly.
    The IISF itself is sending the message loud and clear that it finds the local kids lacking in ability and unable to compete - look at which skaters they choose to support and under what conditions, and that will tell you all you need to know.

    I don't know how you came up with this strange theory about TAHbKA and I trying to "subvert the achievements Israeli skaters have made". We have done nothing of the kind, but have been quite consistent in our posts and in pointing out that the development of skating in Israel is harmed by the focus on bringing in skaters from abroad rather than developing it locally. The point is not what foreign fans think; the point is what Israelis think, and whether a local kid will be inspired to take up the sport based on what is currently happening. The goal of the IISF should be to make Israeli figure skating successful, and I don't feel their current approach is or will be effective in promoting that goal.

    Since you are not Israeli, I find your attempts to tell us what Israelis think and should think presumptuous and unfortunate.

  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    But with skating you presume that there is a perfect world, where only hard work is the key to success. But it’s not. It’s also politics, influence of coaches, the luck of good timing and sometimes even – things which are beyond of the control of young skaters. Just look at the decision Russian Fed made with regards to handing out spots in the men for Euros and Worlds – it’s hard to argue the 5th place finisher Kovtun worked harder than Menshov. Actually I expected that this affair might be the final decision point for one or two skaters to switch countries.
    I don't assume anything. I also don't have to like it, do I? I also dont want my tax money to be wasted on that circus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    Feel free to express whom you are cheering for. However, even countries like Russia or France with a huge skating tradition compared to Israel had quite a few of “imported” skaters (the Duchesnays, Kawaguchi, Volosozhar) still most people in those countries managed to be proud of their success.
    Remind me, in which country do Kawaguti and Volosozhar live now? Where do they train? Which language do they speak? Which citizenship do they hold (am not sure whether Volosozhar had to give up the Ukranian citizenship, but we all know Kawaguti's story and how much she had to sacrify to represent Russia).
    None of the imported israeli skaters had to give up the previous citizenships, none live in Israel, none even come to Israel if they don't absolutely have to. You know when the last nationals took place? No? Me neither. Now that should really give the local kids a reason to go to the ice rink, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    Despite understanding the frustration to a certain point, I sadly think your statements and similar ones by others, but in particular the way and the language you are presenting your arguments with pointing out Israel doesn’t have enough “local skaters” only non-local ones and indicating that even “rubbish” Amercian/Russian skaters due to lousy jumps of locals are still technically superior to them, is a perfect effort to possibly subvert the achievements Israeli figures skaters made in the past decades in the eyes of many non-Israeli skating fans. Most of them would not waste a minute of time thinking if the skaters were imported / local, unless pointed out by others. So if that was the goal, it might have been achieved perfectly.
    Who are the last decade skates you are talking about? Chait/Sakhnovski? Chait was born in Israel, just like Schreiber. I don't recall calling either of them imported. Zaretskis? Krasnapolski? Katz? Please please, pretty please show me where did I call any of those skaters imported. I would love to see that.

    As for the skaters of the last 2-3 years (again, Krasnopolski, Zilberberg and Rogov aside) - I don't care much what the international figure skating fans think about the Israeli figure skating. However, in the local papers the only times the figure skating is mentioned is in the articles about money laundering etc. It is called the wandering circus. And you know what? They are right.


    And yes, I do want the FSUers to know those skaters are imported and have done nothing to promote figure skating in Israel, among the local skaters or the local fans.

    On that positive note am done arguing with you. You seem to know as much about the Israeli skating as Shelepen.

  3. #123

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    Rofl, Zemgirl, we should stop that telepathy, it becomes scary

  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    Despite understanding the frustration to a certain point, I sadly think your statements and similar ones by others, but in particular the way and the language you are presenting your arguments with pointing out Israel doesn’t have enough “local skaters” only non-local ones and indicating that even “rubbish” Amercian/Russian skaters due to lousy jumps of locals are still technically superior to them, is a perfect effort to possibly subvert the achievements Israeli figures skaters made in the past decades in the eyes of many non-Israeli skating fans. Most of them would not waste a minute of time thinking if the skaters were imported / local, unless pointed out by others. So if that was the goal, it might have been achieved perfectly.

    I didn't read TAHbKA's post as a dig at past achievements. Instead, it seemed to focus on future results and the overall fairness of the selection process. Or rather, lack thereof. I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing that out. My home country has been sending a marginally better import skater to Euros instead of the local girl for about 3 years now. I don't think sending a 60-scoring skater over a 55-scoring local skater sends the right message, but in their infinite wisdom the National Federation seems to believe that's the right call. This doesn't mean import skaters are to blame -far from it, actually. However, it is frustrating when you think how much these decisions could hurt skating's long-term development in countries that do this.

  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    Rofl, Zemgirl, we should stop that telepathy, it becomes scary


    I prefer to think of it as setting a good example... and the posts kind of complement each other, don't you think?

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    I don't understand people who can country-swap so easily. Have they no pride? No loyalty? No sense of belonging or nationality?

    It bewilders me.
    Speaking as the spectator and not the skater who swaps the countries, I would rather watch decent skaters even though they skate for a different country than the country they were born it, than watching low standard skaters who are raised in certain country. So I would rather watch at Europeans 15 Russian girls (skating for all different ex-Soviet countries) who can do triple-triple and have high level of skills and talent, than someone who is 'really' born in those ex-Soviet countries but struggles with doing any triple. For me it is about watching skills/sport/art/achievement, not about caring where someone was or wasn't born.

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    My problem is when those people who compete for themselves and can't even win the local rink competition choke the small countrys kids chances to make it to any competition. There is also a question of funding. I don't mind paying taxes for the kids in Metulla to skate and represent me, I do mind paying taxes that will go to some american/russian rubbish skaters who might not be able to point my country on the map
    I would blame the country's skating federation for accepting 'the rubbish skaters' to skate for them. If country doesn't have their own skaters and want someone to represent them, they should be more picky. But to be fair, your skating federation could do much worse than having Shelepen. If we forgive her the last year because she did have a long-standing injury, the year before she was pretty solid in both JGP events and got second in JGPF. After the Olympics, when the strongest skaters retire, if her injury is healed, she has a chance to be somewhere around 5th at Europeans and around 10th at Worlds. So in fact she wouldn't be 'stealing' somebody's spot because she has the potential to earn another one for someone else.

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    I doubt anyone points a gun to the skaters' heads. I reckon they are given a choice: to work hard in their native countries and may be, just may be making it to the major competition or to have an easy life, a promised participation in major events and no competition from the locals. Excuse me if I fail to respect or like those skaters. Don't get me wrong, I realize Mouallem is a lousy jumper and probably will never make the European minimum TES, but she is the local lousy skater. I'd rather have Mouallem than Shelepen representing Israel.
    Oh, come on, Tanka, this is figure skating. Even if the imported skaters have the opportunity to suddenly attend all the major international competitions, I don't think it is fair to claim that they have an easy life. They had to sacrifice a lot to be where they are, same as any top skater, so having easy life is a bit exaggeration. They still have to meet the TES to qualify at the event, and they still have to work hard day after day.


    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    I agree with you with regards to people switching countries for opportunistic reasons like paying lower taxes at expense of other, basically going the “easy way” any time they can instead of investing some hard work to achieve their goals. No respect from my side as well.

    But with skating you presume that there is a perfect world, where only hard work is the key to success. But it’s not. It’s also politics, influence of coaches, the luck of good timing and sometimes even – things which are beyond of the control of young skaters. Just look at the decision Russian Fed made with regards to handing out spots in the men for Euros and Worlds – it’s hard to argue the 5th place finisher Kovtun worked harder than Menshov. Actually I expected that this affair might be the final decision point for one or two skaters to switch countries.
    (
    This! ^^

    Saying that skater has to work harder to be send to Europeans/worlds is ridiculous. There is no fair way to decide who is going to Euroepans/Worlds. There will always be someone who felt that he/she should have gone instead of someone else. For example, would you send to Europeans someone who was delivering the whole season and then messed up nationals, or someone who was messing up the whole season and then had the skate of their lifetime at the nationals? Whoever from this two you choose, the other will feel that he/she should have been chosen.


    Quote Originally Posted by ioana View Post
    I didn't read TAHbKA's post as a dig at past achievements. Instead, it seemed to focus on future results and the overall fairness of the selection process. Or rather, lack thereof. I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing that out. My home country has been sending a marginally better import skater to Euros instead of the local girl for about 3 years now. I don't think sending a 60-scoring skater over a 55-scoring local skater sends the right message, but in their infinite wisdom the National Federation seems to believe that's the right call. This doesn't mean import skaters are to blame -far from it, actually. However, it is frustrating when you think how much these decisions could hurt skating's long-term development in countries that do this.
    But this is sport and you admitted yourself that the imported skater is better...

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I don't know how you came up with this strange theory about TAHbKA and I trying to "subvert the achievements Israeli skaters have made".
    I didn’t say you are trying, i.e. stating you have intention to do so. I just pointed out possible effects of some statements made here, in particular in view of the language used, e.g. "rubbish skaters".

    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    The point is not what foreign fans think; the point is what Israelis think, and whether a local kid will be inspired to take up the sport based on what is currently happening. The goal of the IISF should be to make Israeli figure skating successful, and I don't feel their current approach is or will be effective in promoting that goal.
    Since you are not Israeli, I find your attempts to tell us what Israelis think and should think presumptuous and unfortunate.
    Well, you posted at great skate debate and this is an open forum. It’s ok if you don’t care what skating fans outside of Israel think, but I’m still entitled to state my opinion. And as I mentioned and though you don't care - I see your concerns, the way they are presented is something else and really bothers me.

    BTW, this is a thread about Russian skating and it’s not only people from Russia are posting here what they think about Russian Skaters and Russian Fed. Maybe they didn’t get the new rules!

    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    On that positive note am done arguing with you. You seem to know as much about the Israeli skating as Shelepen.
    I’m not debating with you that you for sure have much bigger knowledge on Israeli figure skating, but I take up the positive note from your side to stop arguing on this issue – because that was my point: the way these issues are discussed may come across unfortunate. Period.

  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Speaking as the spectator and not the skater who swaps the countries, I would rather watch decent skaters even though they skate for a different country than the country they were born it, than watching low standard skaters who are raised in certain country. So I would rather watch at Europeans 15 Russian girls (skating for all different ex-Soviet countries) who can do triple-triple and have high level of skills and talent, than someone who is 'really' born in those ex-Soviet countries but struggles with doing any triple. For me it is about watching skills/sport/art/achievement, not about caring where someone was or wasn't born.
    Me too. As far as I'm concerned lets have X skaters from any country and not maximum 3 and have a higher TES. I would love to watch Korobeinikova instead of Simanchikova. But that's not how the current system works.
    Taking how the current system works I'd rather not see anyone representing my country at all, than have Shelepen and some such. I think in that respect the Irish federation is doing a fine job. There is a local skater. Clara Peters. Whatever she can do - she does. If she can't make the minimum there will be no American skater who will skate in her place.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I would blame the country's skating federation for accepting 'the rubbish skaters' to skate for them. If country doesn't have their own skaters and want someone to represent them, they should be more picky.
    I think they shouldn't have someone representing them at all if that's the case. I realize how badly PapaChait wants to go to the Olympics (not only him, but the whole NOC as well) and they need someone to take them there. I'd rather not have any representitives of the Israeli NOC at the Olympics than have Bychenko or someone of the kind going there.


    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    But to be fair, your skating federation could do much worse than having Shelepen.
    To be fair, my skating federation could admit failing raising a single skater in the last 5 years and just quite and shut itself down, rather than going on spending the taxpayer's money on the foreign skaters.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    After the Olympics, when the strongest skaters retire, if her injury is healed, she has a chance to be somewhere around 5th at Europeans and around 10th at Worlds. So in fact she wouldn't be 'stealing' somebody's spot because she has the potential to earn another one for someone else.
    I think my slippers just choked on a laughter. Any skater who becomes israeli automatically goes 5-10 spots lower than they deserve or would be had they represented any other country. Partly because with the lack of competition they have no reason to work hard. Bychenko was attempting 3A before he became an Israeli, now he doesn't need to, Serov was attempting 4loop while he was a Russian, I have no idea what will become of Shelepen and I wish her a fast recovery, but I can bet some money on her never landing another 3/3.

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    My problem is when those people who compete for themselves and can't even win the local rink competition choke the small countrys kids chances to make it to any competition. There is also a question of funding. I don't mind paying taxes for the kids in Metulla to skate and represent me, I do mind paying taxes that will go to some american/russian rubbish skaters who might not be able to point my country on the map
    Four words.

    Amy Ireland representing Croatia.

    I rest my case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kosjenka View Post
    Four words.

    Amy Ireland representing Croatia.

    I rest my case.
    Awwww, the awesome Amy Ireland.... !

  13. #133

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    After Amy representing Croatia I have little patience reading about bitching regarding Tobias and her Lithuanian citizenship pursuit.
    This American "Barbie" put in time to learn the language, Amy hardly knew she was in Europe competing at Euros 2008. Not that her "croatian" partner was much better.

  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    Well, you posted at great skate debate and this is an open forum. It’s ok if you don’t care what skating fans outside of Israel think, but I’m still entitled to state my opinion. And as I mentioned and though you don't care - I see your concerns, the way they are presented is something else and really bothers me.
    This is a public forum, everyone is welcome to share their opinions. I am suggesting, however, that you should not presume to tell me (or TAHbKA) what our opinions regarding the skaters who represent us should be, and that you don't get to define who we, or any other Israelis, should consider Israeli. Not to mention all the stuff about how disappointed you are in us, how we're trying to make people into second class citizens, etc. etc.

    My point about non-Israeli fans was not that they don't matter but that they are not important for the development of figure skating in Israel; for that purpose, it is important what Israelis think. While watching Shelepen might be fun for you, her representing Israel is unlikely to have any effect on the popularity of figure skating in Israel - and making the sport successful in Israel is a more important goal than ensuring that foreign fans enjoy our skaters or that Boris Chait will get to go to the Olympics.

    I very much agree with TAHbKA that what Ireland is doing is the right way to go. This is the same situation Spain was in five years back, and look where their skaters are now. That's the kind of model I want to see here. Israel will never be another Russia in skating, but there are countries that provide an example of how to do things right on a smaller scale.

    And with that, I believe I will follow TAHbKA's lead.

  15. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    I think my slippers just choked on a laughter. Any skater who becomes israeli automatically goes 5-10 spots lower than they deserve or would be had they represented any other country. Partly because with the lack of competition they have no reason to work hard. Bychenko was attempting 3A before he became an Israeli, now he doesn't need to, Serov was attempting 4loop while he was a Russian, I have no idea what will become of Shelepen and I wish her a fast recovery, but I can bet some money on her never landing another 3/3.
    Oh, Tanka, please don't choke! I am happy to bet with you that she will be doing triple-triple at international competitions even when competing for Israel. What are you willing to bet?

    The thing is, Shelepen doesn't have much else. She has great jumping ability but she will not be getting very high PCS. So if she wants to win, she will have to be jumping. And I think she has the drive to win (see her success as junior) so she will be jumping.

    I wonder if they let her train at the same rink where she is now, if she doesn't represent Russia? I thought that Russian coaches were not 'allowed' to coach international skaters in Russia now?

  16. #136

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    Who can forget Israel not letting their singles skater go to the Olympics in Vancover... (So sad) It makes sense why Israelis would want someone actually from Israel skating for Israel. One looks at Yu-na Kim. One of the best things about her for Korea is that she's homegrown. However, maybe Polina won't take Israeli tax payer money? And maybe she will give back to Israeli skating, we don't know that for sure... I think that she could do very well, she's at the very least not a skater who can't win a local competition. She has won some junior internationals. Is she the best I've ever seen no, but I think she's pretty good.

    Today, 10:19 AM #135 Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    I think my slippers just choked on a laughter. Any skater who becomes israeli automatically goes 5-10 spots lower than they deserve or would be had they represented any other country. Partly because with the lack of competition they have no reason to work hard. Bychenko was attempting 3A before he became an Israeli, now he doesn't need to, Serov was attempting 4loop while he was a Russian, I have no idea what will become of Shelepen and I wish her a fast recovery, but I can bet some money on her never landing another 3/3.
    Polina is not those people. Its possible she won't improve and won't try. But its possible she will want to do well and will keep her 3/3s in if she can... I think she at the very least in that area deserves to be judged by her own actions and not based on what others in the past have done. Some skaters may say oh I have an automatic shot no need to push myself. But others want to do well internationally. Look at Yu-na, she could have easily rested on her laurels and never bothered learning a 3/3 etc. But she wanted to do better than win Korean Nationals.

    Polina may or may not decided to "skate" through the rest of her career... But I say in that area see what she does.

    I do see why you guys want skaters who will build Israeli skating.
    Last edited by bek; 03-24-2013 at 03:29 PM.

  17. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by kosjenka View Post
    Four words.

    Amy Ireland representing Croatia.

    I rest my case.
    We had some american girl representing the UK at last year JGP. Also not very good. But then if there is no one better here...

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    Last time Russia had a bunch of talented ladies, the fed managed to keep their talents around longer I thought. It's not until Timoshenko and Soldatova that there was country switching among their top talent. (I could be mistaken though). Now these girls had one bad season and they switched.

    On another note, I appreciate all the Russian talents, but I can't help but feel they are facing too much too soon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I very much agree with TAHbKA that what Ireland is doing is the right way to go. This is the same situation Spain was in five years back, and look where their skaters are now. That's the kind of model I want to see here. Israel will never be another Russia in skating, but there are countries that provide an example of how to do things right on a smaller scale.
    And this sums it up. Spain is an example to follow and it's something that Chait should be doing but isn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Oh, Tanka, please don't choke!
    I wasn't, my slippers were
    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    The thing is, Shelepen doesn't have much else. She has great jumping ability but she will not be getting very high PCS. So if she wants to win, she will have to be jumping. And I think she has the drive to win (see her success as junior) so she will be jumping.
    I think she will give up fast after a competition or two realizing except for skating she needs a federation that supports her behind her. It's not Israeli federation most of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I wonder if they let her train at the same rink where she is now, if she doesn't represent Russia? I thought that Russian coaches were not 'allowed' to coach international skaters in Russia now?
    I think it doesn't apply to all the coaches (Morozov is training foreign skaters. Am not sure whether Sokolovskaya is considered a top coach to be forbidden coaching the foreigners)

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